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Originally posted by predator0187
.......I mean, I am not a religious person...
Originally posted by AkoMakolet
reply to post by OldThinker
There are reasons to believe that Earth IS Hell. What does the bible say about where Satan rules? That's right, it's earth. ...
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Jesus does not say that both of them went to heaven. He does not say that one of them went to heaven. But it does say that both of them died.
Rich Man dies
The Bible says that the Rich Man was buried, but it does not say that Lazarus was buried. He probably could not afford cost of burial, the grave, and the inscription.
In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Now it says that in Hades the Rich Man lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away. First we have to understand what is Hades.
The original Greek word "Hades," which some translators have rendered as Hell, has the following meaning:
The nether world kingdom; according to classical mythology, the abode of the shades, ruled over by Hades or Pluto; the grave.
In the parable, the meaning for Hades is the grave. Some other places in the Bible that use the word Hades are:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Second death - Lake of Fire
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
The book of Acts is quoting from the book of Psalms in reference to Christ, that His body was not left in Hades. The original Hebrew word in Psalms is Sheol which also means the grave. Jesus was not left in Hades, the grave, because He was resurrected. His flesh did not suffer decay because He resurrected at the 3rd day before His body was decomposed.
Therefore both, our Lord Yeshua and the Rich Man, went to the same place, Hades -- the place for the dead or the grave.
Continuing with the parable, Luke 16:24
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
The Rich Man asks Abraham for a favor...that he would send Lazarus to cool off his tongue.
Here we realize that this narrative is a parable, and not a real story. Why?
In the reality we live in, anybody who is in a "flame of fire" needs more help than a finger dipped in water to cool off his tongue. So we must interpret this story as a parable, not as what can actually occur word by word, now or in the future.
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
This part of the parable is comparing and contrasting again the two types -- the rich and the poor -- and what happens later on... the ones that suffered in this life will be comforted, but the ones that had a "good time" during this life, without any regards for others, will suffer.
Compare and contrast to the words of Yeshua as recorded by Matthew and Luke:
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.
Continuing with the parable...
'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
The story states there is a great chasm fixed to prevent mixing of one group with the other group.
In the future after the second resurrection, there will be a great difference between one group and the other. The ones that were part of the first resurrection are not able to die. The ones that are part of the second resurrection will be judged according to their works. Some might be sent to the "lake of fire," the second death.
The parable also relates that at the time the Rich Man opens his eyes in Hades, Lazarus is already with Abraham. This is consistent with the fact presented in the book of Revelation that the first resurrection --the resurrection of the righteous --occurs many years before the second resurrection. Lazarus, evidently, was part of the first resurrection. The Rich Man was part of the second resurrection. For more on this topic, we invite you to read The First Resurrection.
Continuing with the parable,
And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
The Rich Man sees his doom, but wants his relatives to be spared.
But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Again, the words are said "if someone goes to them from the dead."
It does not say Lazarus was a spirit; it does not say the Rich Man was a spirit. But it stresses the fact that the dead will live again. The Rich Man wants someone from the dead to come back and preach to people.
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'
Yeshua ends the parable with those words. If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, even if He sends someone from the dead....they are not going to listen.
The fact is, Jesus did just that. He resurrected His friend Lazarus from Bethany (not the one in the parable). What happened when Lazarus from Bethany was resurrected? The Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus too...not only Yeshua. They wanted to kill him because people were believing in Yeshua and turning to God.
Jesus himself appeared to people after His resurrection. Did that make the Pharisees repent and turn to God? No, they invented lies with which to deceive the people.
Therefore the words of Yeshua are true. Those who have no desire to repent and find the true God will never find Him, even if someone comes back from the dead to preach to them.
I,do, wish, you were right...easy, criptic, etc...but I can not deny the above, ru ready 2?
Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by antideceit
Why bring Christ into this. 'hell' has existed for a lot longer than Christ, so to say there are people there who mocked him is to say that he helped create it.
Where do we put people that die? in the Earth.
'Do you think Hades/Hell/etc is real ? Or made up? '
Originally posted by Grey Magic
I don't know, might be.
Because when I die, I want two coins placed on my eyes before I get buried.
I need to cross the river Styx to get in Valhalla.
Not many people use this custom anymore, so it must be crowded at the bank of the river.
Originally posted by predator0187
.......Nobody really knows who Christ was, the earliest works of the bible were written 30 years after his supposed resurrection.
Originally posted by OldThinker
So pred, please help me understand the "logic" k?
An all powerful God, who wants to convey A MESSAGE....can't...because He's time bound? (30 whole yrs?)
Seems logical to this ole guy, if HE wants something...HE get's something....like a clear message, we call it the New Testament...or is He a practcal joker? Sad, if true....do you believe he is infallable? And missed the mark?
r we all fu?
Originally posted by antideceit
Dude, I totally have not judged you by what you believe, I was just saying..
And yes, Christ existed long before hell was made. That is a fact according to the Holy Bible, and I can't ignore it.. You cannot prove me wrong, and neither can I prove I am right, but there is more evidence to support what I am saying than there is that I am wrong.
I am not opposed to you in any way, just trying to share some insight. You of course don't have to beleieve it..
The reason I choose to believe in all of this is because the recorded documents that transcribed the experience and testimony of the original 12 disciples of Christ all discuss Christ in detail and even convey that they are inexplicably true and not fabrications. Those 12 disciples are worth believing, and they even swore to the truthfulness of what they had witnessed. There is no way I can ignore that..