Do you think HADES/HELL/etc is real? Or a made-up thing?

Originally posted by predator0187
.......I mean, I am not a religious person...

Me, either...in all reality.

Nor was TLJC...

Religion is human's attempt to get to god...failed/flawed/ SHORT!


OT

PS: My boy was born two months after you...if i interpret the avatar/name correctly?

reply to post by OldThinker


There are reasons to believe that Earth IS Hell. What does the bible say about where Satan rules? That's right, it's earth. What does the bible say about where Satan was brought down to when Lucifer rebelled against God? That's right, it's Earth. This goes on and on.

In many ways, life on earth is the perfect torture. You are born perfect and happy, you live your life working towards attempting to perfect yourself with the inevitable conclusion that your body will slowly deteriorate, pain will take hold, everyone will leave your side, you will begin to decompose and smell bad while you are living and you will finally end up in a Hospital with people cutting you open, sticking tubes in you and in all ways that matter torturing you until you die.

Perhaps there is some way to salvation and you don't have to be born here again? I don't know. But just about the time where you have everything more or less figured out here, you die and are very likely memory wiped and reborn to do it all again.

Sounds like Hell to me!

Then, to be even more conclusive, you need to study the mystery religions of earth, such as freemasonry (which arguably controls the entire western world). Their direct God is Lucifer and they embed their symbols all over the place. If you reach a high enough level in their fraternity, you discover that the statue of Liberty is actually the lady Columbia with a torch, entering the underworld to attempt to light the way while she searches for her son. You will discover that the figure atop the capital building in Washington DC is not some arbitrary "statue of freedom", but is Persiphone, the queen of the underworld. You will see layouts of the streets in DC that show conclusively that the streets were laid out in a series of magical geometries in order to act as a majik spell the size of city blocks. These revelations just go on and on. Everywhere around you, you begin to see he bureaucracy of demons and the second system, veiled from normal view, that actually runs things on planet Earth.

So what is Earth and what is this existence?

That is the real question.

DISCLAIMER: On the flip side, I believe heaven co-exists with hell, here, as well and it is up to us, each day, which perspective we decide to take and which path we choose to walk down.

I believe hell is real and that Satan would like it if you joined him there. Then you will never be complete. There is something in heaven that you need to be complete so you will always feel something missing. I also tend to visualize hell as a very painful place to be.

I also believe true atheists take comfort in their beliefs that their existence is over when they die. They don't worry about going to hell and suffering for all of eternity after this life on Earth ends. However if they ever start having doubts especially if they don't even believe in the supernatural, they'll go into crisis mode if they see too many unexplained events.

I also believe Satan is invisible and can work through people or work within them. Most do not recognize when Satan is present working his lies and evil works. At the risk of sounding like I have insanity in my family, my mother claims she has seen Satan watching me and my younger brother when we were just little kids having fun and he was not happy at all. What was even scarier was that she even claimed she saw Satan in our den where we used to watch tv. Watching tv with Satan? I never saw anything. However I do believe evil is all around us and there are some people who take pleasure in causing pain onto others.
I've heard it is very easy to get into hell.

reply to post by OldThinker


It is definitely a real place, although the athiests won't ever believe it until they see it, which I hope they don't, because the place is very very inhospitible. I have it on good authority that it exists 3400 miles beneath the earth's crust, there is a very large hollow space where it is. All the souls that are there feel pain and cannot talk to anyone else. Those that have mocked Christ and publicly laughed at the idea or story of the Cross are themsleves nailed up on a cross there. Everything the body can feel so also can the soul be treated, ie, chained, imprisoned, tortured, etc. It is said to smell of sulfur very strongly, and no air to breath. The souls there are compelled to try and breathe but cannot ever quite get any air, yet still survive somehow.
Anyone who says this is all untrue go ahead and prove it is not true, on the same coin, it isn't really possible to prove for or against the reality of it except for eyewitness testimony. There are cases where people have been given a tour with the requirement of telling what they saw when they were there.
The fallen ones there are the jailers, and are all grotesque and giant in stature.
God doesn't want anyone to go there, he cares about all. The requirement is believing by faith alone, since that is man's most difficult thing to do is to believe without hard proof.
God is very friendly and kind if you wish to ponder it and search yourself, you can discover it. Not with self pride, or by being stubborn, but by being willing to believe. People that have already done this know it is true because it is like a veil of ignorance has been lifted from you once you let go of your old self and let Christ take over. Do you have the guts to attempt it? forget fear of ridicule and any other thing stopping you.
Peace

reply to post by antideceit


Why bring Christ into this. 'hell' has existed for a lot longer than Christ, so to say there are people there who mocked him is to say that he helped create it.

Where do we put people that die? in the Earth.

Pred...

I don't know, might be.

Because when I die, I want two coins placed on my eyes before I get buried.

I need to cross the river Styx to get in Valhalla.

Not many people use this custom anymore, so it must be crowded at the bank of the river.

Originally posted by AkoMakolet
reply to post by OldThinker

 

There are reasons to believe that Earth IS Hell. What does the bible say about where Satan rules? That's right, it's earth. ...

Very thoughtful perspective....


What do you do with the EARTHY example of TLJC speaking of Lazarus and the Rich Man.......OUTSIDE of earth..... to the disciples?

See: www.rapturechrist.com...

Luke 16:22
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

Jesus does not say that both of them went to heaven. He does not say that one of them went to heaven. But it does say that both of them died.

Rich Man dies

The Bible says that the Rich Man was buried, but it does not say that Lazarus was buried. He probably could not afford cost of burial, the grave, and the inscription.

Luke 16:23
In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Now it says that in Hades the Rich Man lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away. First we have to understand what is Hades.

The original Greek word "Hades," which some translators have rendered as Hell, has the following meaning:

The nether world kingdom; according to classical mythology, the abode of the shades, ruled over by Hades or Pluto; the grave.

In the parable, the meaning for Hades is the grave. Some other places in the Bible that use the word Hades are:

Rev 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Second death - Lake of Fire


Acts 2:31
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.

The book of Acts is quoting from the book of Psalms in reference to Christ, that His body was not left in Hades. The original Hebrew word in Psalms is Sheol which also means the grave. Jesus was not left in Hades, the grave, because He was resurrected. His flesh did not suffer decay because He resurrected at the 3rd day before His body was decomposed.

Therefore both, our Lord Yeshua and the Rich Man, went to the same place, Hades -- the place for the dead or the grave.

Continuing with the parable, Luke 16:24
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

The Rich Man asks Abraham for a favor...that he would send Lazarus to cool off his tongue.

Here we realize that this narrative is a parable, and not a real story. Why?

In the reality we live in, anybody who is in a "flame of fire" needs more help than a finger dipped in water to cool off his tongue. So we must interpret this story as a parable, not as what can actually occur word by word, now or in the future.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.


This part of the parable is comparing and contrasting again the two types -- the rich and the poor -- and what happens later on... the ones that suffered in this life will be comforted, but the ones that had a "good time" during this life, without any regards for others, will suffer.


Compare and contrast to the words of Yeshua as recorded by Matthew and Luke:

Matthew 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Luke 6:24
But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.

Continuing with the parable...

Luke 16:26
'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'


The story states there is a great chasm fixed to prevent mixing of one group with the other group.

In the future after the second resurrection, there will be a great difference between one group and the other. The ones that were part of the first resurrection are not able to die. The ones that are part of the second resurrection will be judged according to their works. Some might be sent to the "lake of fire," the second death.

The parable also relates that at the time the Rich Man opens his eyes in Hades, Lazarus is already with Abraham. This is consistent with the fact presented in the book of Revelation that the first resurrection --the resurrection of the righteous --occurs many years before the second resurrection. Lazarus, evidently, was part of the first resurrection. The Rich Man was part of the second resurrection. For more on this topic, we invite you to read The First Resurrection.

Continuing with the parable,

Luke 16:27
And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

Luke 16:28
for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

The Rich Man sees his doom, but wants his relatives to be spared.


Father Abraham
Luke 16:29
But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

Luke 16:30
But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

Again, the words are said "if someone goes to them from the dead."

It does not say Lazarus was a spirit; it does not say the Rich Man was a spirit. But it stresses the fact that the dead will live again. The Rich Man wants someone from the dead to come back and preach to people.


Luke 16:31
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'

Yeshua ends the parable with those words. If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, even if He sends someone from the dead....they are not going to listen.

The fact is, Jesus did just that. He resurrected His friend Lazarus from Bethany (not the one in the parable). What happened when Lazarus from Bethany was resurrected? The Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus too...not only Yeshua. They wanted to kill him because people were believing in Yeshua and turning to God.

Jesus himself appeared to people after His resurrection. Did that make the Pharisees repent and turn to God? No, they invented lies with which to deceive the people.

Therefore the words of Yeshua are true. Those who have no desire to repent and find the true God will never find Him, even if someone comes back from the dead to preach to them.

I,do, wish, you were right...easy, criptic, etc...but I can not deny the above, ru ready 2?

reply to post by orionthehunter


Star for you orionthehunter!

Great post! Hope folks are reading.....

reply to post by predator0187


Hmm, has "Hell" as it is existed longer than Christ? The Jews had no Hell; they did have Gehenna, the "outer darkness" into which some were cast. The Greeks had the realm of Hades, which was really just an afterlife, which was, n its own, indifferent as to whether it was torture or Edenic. The Elysian Fields, of course, were pretty awesome; but they were for heroes. All others went to the general population; some were tortured when decreed to the Gods.

Other civilizations had similar concepts of the afterlife... But did they really have a Hell?

Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by antideceit

 

Why bring Christ into this. 'hell' has existed for a lot longer than Christ, so to say there are people there who mocked him is to say that he helped create it.

Where do we put people that die? in the Earth.

Pred...

Why bring Christ into it? because he is the only one standing between you and hell .
Whenever you speak about hell you should also think of Christ, if you are smart. If you are not smart and don't wish to be, then just ignore my advice, I have a feeling you will anyways.

Hell did not exist before Christ, do you think Christ never existed before he was born as a man in the world?

reply to post by antideceit


I said this before...and I'll say it again!

MODS, please notice this fellows living (or dying) avatar!!!!!


It is beyond belief!!!!!

Very cool!!!!

Graphic!!!!

It is hard to forget....



OT

PS: Post wasn't bad either

reply to post by OldThinker


OP, because you're thread-title is presented as a question, I'm going to respond direct, without reading the posts, because I don't want to be influenced by other's opinions

'Do you think Hades/Hell/etc is real ? Or made up? '

It's my suspicion that Hades/Hell are concepts, theories, invented to explain a situation which might have been presented to people long ago

What situations ?

Ok. Ghosts, for example. Way back in the mists of time, people must have decided that death wasn't necessarily all there was. I regard the practice of burying people with flowers, ochres, grave-gifts, etc. to be evidence of this

Why would people reach the conclusion that physical death may not necessarily be the 'end' ? After all, the gifts they were burying wiht their dead would have possessed value, usefulness, to the living. No stores then. Everything created by hand or accident. Why would the living reach the conclusion that a hand-crafted gourd or valuable fur cloak might be needed by that dead body that was lying there ?

Why ? Well, maybe it was because a child or elderly member of the tribe claimed to have been visited by a dead tribal-member

Maybe the first person was denounced as 'crazy' by the tribe for making such a claim ? Maybe the first hundred people who claimed to have seen a dead person were similarly denounced ? Maybe it wasn't until a tribal leader was visited by (let's say) his mother or a dead tribal enemy, that such claims were, even of necessity, taken seriously ?

Maybe that tribal-leader received a good shaking-up from his ghostly visitor ? Maybe as a means of making amends, he tried to placate future ghosts by decreeing that in future, a dead person's precious possessions should be placed in the grave with him, instead of being dispersed amongst the tribe ?

Progressing on from roughly that point, ghosts of the dead may have been accepted generally. Ok. But ghosts come in all types, just as the living do. So there would have been 'good' and 'bad' ghosts

What's a 'good' ghost ? Open to speculation, but speaking generally, I'd describe (if I were a neanderthal, perhaps) a good-ghost as being one which gave assistance, or came with a warning that might save my life, for example. Or one which appeared with a message of 'Don't worry about me. I am well '. This of course would serve to persuade people of the day (as I said above) that physical death is not necessarily all there is. So this would have given rise to a belief in a 'Nice Afterlife', which in turn would have grown into the religions and beliefs we still have today)

And a 'bad' ghost ? Again, open to speculation, but speaking generally again, a 'bad ghost' might have been that of a 'bad person' who'd died. And that 'bad-person's-ghost' might have scared one or more members of the tribe by howling horribly. Or it might have appeared in the flames of the communal fire, writhing as if in pain, its features distorted, its mouth wide and screaming as if in pain, as if being tortured

Members of the tribe/s who witnessed this over time might have pondered what this harrowing display might mean. And they might have said to each other, ' Well, he was a pig. Was brutal. Was a thief. Was a killer. ' etc.

And they might, over time and similar discussions, have reached the conclusion that 'Death is not all there is. Bad people go to a bad place after death'

Just as religions and beliefs in a 'Nice Afterlife' arose as result of visitiation by 'Nice Ghosts' --- so too could religions and beliefs in a 'Bad Afterlife' have resulted from visitations by 'Suffering, Moaning, Bad Ghosts'

These days we call these after-death regions Heaven and Hell

A few hundred years ago, Hell was portrayed as a region filled with nasties wielding pitchforks, roasting sinners over eternal fires and breaking their bones in diabolical contraptions, etc.

Today, Hell is portrayed as 'Absence of Light', as a separation from God

I think the latter is probably correct in some instances, although I'm not convinced it's necessarily a permanent state

Originally posted by Grey Magic
I don't know, might be.

Because when I die, I want two coins placed on my eyes before I get buried.

I need to cross the river Styx to get in Valhalla.

Not many people use this custom anymore, so it must be crowded at the bank of the river.

OT thinks you are being silly...am I wrong?

If not can I borrow those coins first? I wanna buy a Styx CD....k?

I hear Val is nice this time of the mayan calendar

reply to post by antideceit


So hell was born with christ? Other civilizations have always had a place similar to hell, not quite the world but similar.

No I personally do not believe in the 'Christ' of Catholicism today, because most (not all) probably have no idea to begin with.

Nobody really knows who Christ was, the earliest works of the bible were written 30 years after his supposed resurrection.

I do not judge you for believing in Christ so why judge me for believing in nothing? I am a good person, just because I do not have Christ in my life you think that it makes my life worthless?

I say as long as your happy that's all that matters.

If you do not believe in Christ and live a good life, helping others, being a good person, he will reject me and send me to hell? Not the type of person/god that I would want to be around anyways.

I always wondered why in the Bibles they made God so jealous, sounds weird to me that the creator and head of everything is jealous.

Pred...

reply to post by Dock9



Dock9,

Very thorough response....

yeah, it was a question!

OT

Originally posted by predator0187
.......Nobody really knows who Christ was, the earliest works of the bible were written 30 years after his supposed resurrection.
.....

So pred, please help me understand the "logic" k?

An all powerful God, who wants to convey A MESSAGE....can't...because He's time bound? (30 whole yrs?)


Seems logical to this ole guy, if HE wants something...HE get's something....like a clear message, we call it the New Testament...or is He a practcal joker? Sad, if true....do you believe he is infallable? And missed the mark?

r we all fu?

reply to post by predator0187


Dude, I totally have not judged you by what you believe, I was just saying..
And yes, Christ existed long before hell was made. That is a fact according to the Holy Bible, and I can't ignore it.. You cannot prove me wrong, and neither can I prove I am right, but there is more evidence to support what I am saying than there is that I am wrong.
I am not opposed to you in any way, just trying to share some insight. You of course don't have to beleieve it..
The reason I choose to believe in all of this is because the recorded documents that transcribed the experience and testimony of the original 12 disciples of Christ all discuss Christ in detail and even convey that they are inexplicably true and not fabrications. Those 12 disciples are worth believing, and they even swore to the truthfulness of what they had witnessed. There is no way I can ignore that..

Originally posted by OldThinker
So pred, please help me understand the "logic" k?

An all powerful God, who wants to convey A MESSAGE....can't...because He's time bound? (30 whole yrs?)


Seems logical to this ole guy, if HE wants something...HE get's something....like a clear message, we call it the New Testament...or is He a practcal joker? Sad, if true....do you believe he is infallable? And missed the mark?

r we all fu?

Oh I agree with the God aspect of it. It sounds fishy to me that God would trust but a few people with his word. But we were talking about Christ, and although people think Christ and God are one in the same, then the writings of Christ were made 30 years after his death. That's all.

Most of the stories in the Bible are rewritten of other civilizations stories as well.

I agree with Christ's message I just dislike what christianity has turned it into with churches and the like, making it more pagan than anything else.

No disrespect meant in any way to anyone here. I was just having a discussion.

Pred...

Originally posted by antideceit
Dude, I totally have not judged you by what you believe, I was just saying..
And yes, Christ existed long before hell was made. That is a fact according to the Holy Bible, and I can't ignore it.. You cannot prove me wrong, and neither can I prove I am right, but there is more evidence to support what I am saying than there is that I am wrong.
I am not opposed to you in any way, just trying to share some insight. You of course don't have to beleieve it..
The reason I choose to believe in all of this is because the recorded documents that transcribed the experience and testimony of the original 12 disciples of Christ all discuss Christ in detail and even convey that they are inexplicably true and not fabrications. Those 12 disciples are worth believing, and they even swore to the truthfulness of what they had witnessed. There is no way I can ignore that..

No disrespect to you and I hope you don't take it this way but you cannot use the Bible as fact. The bible serves a good purpose if takes as fiction as there is a lot of good stories, but when a book tells people what is right or wrong that is when I get a disconnection.

Masturbation is wrong, Homosexuality is wrong, They judge before they know and yet ask us not to. God has killed many people (or made someone else do it) in a wrathful vengeance and then tells us not to. Do as I say not as I do. Weird to me.

Thanks for having a good discussion.

Pred...

reply to post by predator0187



Nah, i know....good conversation...glad you joined....


Check this 9 min vid out ok? Maybe this will provide some balance, k?


link: www.youtube.com...

and if that sparks a desire, here's OT's avatar inspiration...no pressure....its just here: www.tonycampolo.org...

the great talk i ever heard........this guy studied with AE....