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Originally posted by game over manRight. So the light we see closest to us, makes a distance of 30 million light years, the light behind one light year would be 29 million light years. Before that one light year reaches Earth or the Sombrero Galaxy for that matter, could you not fly through space so fast that you beat the light, so to speak, and arrive at the planet where you would visually be viewing it from your starting point?
Don't by folding the paper you compress all the light? You know the paper folding analogy? What happens to the light when you fold point a to point b? And if you really think about it everything is light. So when you fold the paper you can get to point b with out wasting anytime flying through space.
Originally posted by AkoMakoletBut here is what you are neglecting to look at: We are a co-evolved species. The entire biosphere would need to be transplanted in order to colonize a distant world. Assuming that world already had bacterial life, like earth, it is a quite small logical jump to assume that whatever world we colonized may appear to have evolved there after some period of time, even though it may not have (because our flora and fauna that we brought with us would more or less fit in with the bacterial back-plane that the planet already had.
No, those traces are all around us. Just do some research on mystery archeology and ancient civilizations. There is a lot of evidence that either of these possibilities could be true.
Originally posted by AkoMakolet
Originally posted by thereaintnospoon
reply to post by AkoMakolet
LOL explain "impossible". That's a bold claim with no backup whatsoever. I'd like to know where you are getting your information from and how you are coming to such radical conclusions.
The statement that I am calling *impossible* is that human beings simultaneously evolved in two different places (two different worlds).
I will attempt to explain to you why this is impossible, but there is one caveat. I am working under the assumption that the universe is finite; There is a countable amount of matter and energy in the universe. If this is false, and the matter and energy is uncountable (infinite), then clearly, this argument fails and it becomes possible or certain that human beings simultaneously evolved on uncountable other worlds in that infinite universe.
Ok, back to the point: In a finite universe, it is impossible for mankind to evolve on two different planets, independent of one another.
First, to meet the requirements for being human, both groups of people from these two planets must be the same species, which is defined by being reproductively compatible with one another (e.g. individuals must be able to have sex and produce a child). In order for this to be true, they must be genetically identical species, which implies many many things.
* Both species must be carbon based life
* Both species must be of life based upon DNA
* Both species must have eukoraytic cells
* Both species must have identical DNA
We need to put all of this into perspective for a moment. The evolution of Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes is not understood by modern science, but we know that these bacterial cells (which form all life on earth) are extravaganzas of nanomachinery; They are incomprehensibly complex and contain tens of thousands of different types of machinery like components, culminating in RNA and DNA which act as the blueprints for protein factories that pump out finished material and replicate cells.
For these types of bacterial cells to independently evolve with exactly the same components, working exactly identically across light years, is simply inconceivable. The odds are infinitesimally low. In fact, even if we transplanted the cells from earth to another planet and allowed time to take hold (the theory of panspermia), the bacterial cells would change and adapt to the differences in the environment. On earth, bacterial cells quickly adapt and change. The Eukaryotes that make up multicellular life varies from species to species to some degree, and has changed over time.
The idea that Eukaryotes would be identical across light-years on a completely different planet (with a different sun) is inconceivable. It cannot happen, unless the universe is infinite and there are more than one planet with identical conditions that earth had and identical evolutionary paths.
However, it doesn't stop here. We haven't even begun to discuss the improbability of identical Eukaryotes combining into multicellular life that ultimately evolves into identical, reproductively compatible human beings. We can do the math, but it would show conclusively that the probability of this happening would be so low that you would need a universe that borders on the infinite to begin to suspect that it could be possible.
finite universe: No other humans unless we came from them or they came from us, and if it's been a real long time, they won't be human anymore (they will have evolved differently and speciated - split from us)
infinite universe: Infinite earths, all things conceivable happen somewhere in the universe an infinite number of times.
Originally posted by game over man
Originally posted by LifeInDeath
You are thinking about it backwards. When we look at Alpha Centauri now, we are seeing it how it looked 4.3 years in the past, not the future because that's how long it took for the light to get here.
Let's say we were able to jump to Alpha Centauri right now, in an instant, and then when we get there we are able to set up some sort of signal or beacon that sends back a laser or radio signal to Earth. That signal would take 4.3 years to get back to earth, so it would get here around July-ish 2014. Even though we send that signal in the present, nobody back home would know about it until 4.3 years in our future.
For instance, here's a picture of the Sombrero Galaxy (aka M104). That image was taken a few years ago by Hubble, but the image we are seeing there happened about 30 million years ago, as the light from that galaxy has taken that long to reach us here. Whatever civilizations in that massive galaxy which might have been looking our way at the time the light in that photo actually happened, existed almost halfway back to the time of the dinosaurs...and whatever light they were looking at from our galaxy happened a little after the dinosaurs died out, because the light from out galaxy also takes 30 million years to reach them!
Thank you for replying. It is so hard to wrap your head around it, isn't it?
Ok, so the Sombrero Galaxy, what we observe in present time from our planet is the Sombrero Galaxy 30 million years ago. Does that mean if we travel there via wormhole technology we would end up there 30 million years ago? Or would we end up there at the current age of that Galaxy?
Originally posted by dougie6665
Can I put a new theory on this board. I have not read this anywhere, and have given it some thought. If someone else has posted this elsewhere, my apologies.
Lets suppose that long distance space travel is not possible. Humans can't survive the radiation, the speeds are too fast etc. Therefore, we are stuck in our solar system forever as are every other species elsewhere. Now, lets suppose humans on another planet are about to be obliterated because there star is dying but, they have a strong will to keep the species going. How do you do that?
You send test tube embryos on a space ship manned by robots to other inhabitable worlds that have been identified. The embryos can be protected in containers from radiation as well as from motion. The ships are sent to multiple worlds to maximize the chances for species survival. The robots travel to those worlds, incubate the babies, stick around for a while to give them some customs, some survival skills and then move onto the next world. They occasionally check in to make sure we haven't destroyed ourselves, but, they never intend on openly interfering and will eventually go away entirely.
This theory could explain a lot of things that have been mysteries.
How did seemingly illiterate people build monolithic structures that they did not have the technology to do. Duh, they had help.
How come this technology did not survive. It left when the robots left. Since man couldn't write at that time or explain it well, what really happened did not survive in our written history.
What were the structure's purpose? To give some culture to early man.
How did modern man only appear less than 100,000 years ago? We were seeded here.
Why don't they tell us where we came from? Its not really important. What is important is that the species survived and our purpose is to find our own way. It might only be important in the face of the imminent destruction of Earth. Then, they can either communicate the species is already elsewhere or help us seed another world if we have not already figured it out by then.
It explains the Genesis story that man was created in the image of God and how other people were already there when Cain killed Abel etc and so forth. It also explains why there are UFOs here and why they don't land and won't contact us.
It also tells us that a lot of us are going to be on this board for a long time without definitive answers. I could give a whole list of other questions that it reasonably answers, but, the idea is pretty straightforward.
I used to be pretty religious. But, there are too many holes in the religions and unexplained issues. I finally settled on this as a reasonable explanation of how man arrived here and what our true destiny is. Our destiny isn't eternal life, to explore the universe etc. It is to survive and become the best we can on this planet. We need to keep trying to find out about the universe so we can eventually populate other worlds, but, it won't be as a result of man going there.
Any takers on my theory?
Originally posted by GerhardSA
I understand the way you see it but NO. it will still take the light/radio signals 30 million years to get to earth again, because it travels at the speed of light. if you can get there via wormhole in a split second, it means only that you traveled faster than light. You will be there in a split second, which means, for people on earth to see you arriving there (in a split second from leaving earth), they would have to wait 30 million years, for the light/radio signal would have to travel 30 million years again from that point to reach earth in the conventional way.