Toddler Shot By Police Aiming for Suspect

reply to post by IceHappy


I agree with you. I should have posted that in the plural, rather than singling out the officer who fired that round.

The investigation should be carried out. ...and if necessary, sanctions up to and including jailtime should be levied.

reply to post by MBF


The woman did this to herself when she decided dragging a person(yes I know, it was a cop, but they are people too) was a good idea. "Oh noes, the popo gonna get me I better take off and run cause I don't want to get busted for driving illegally oh wait now I started a chase and now i'm dead"

Her fault, not the cops. If they had ramed her car when in the rural part and killed her but no one else people would be complaining that "Those mean cops, they killed that woman over a driving violation, when she peeled out they should have just let her go despite the fact that she was now driving like a moron."

As for the story at hand. Seriously? 42 shots? Thats a lot of lead to be throwing around. However as one poster pointed out, there is a good chance that there would be a hostage situation and or he would have killed them once he got away cause who needs more people to id him.


Oh yeah, one more thing

"Maybe he lost his house and had to rob the bank."

Yeah, that's an excuse. I'm broke cause I don't make as much money as I would like and can't afford anyhting that's not been used by several other people, guess I should knock over the liquor store down the street then eh?

[edit on 3/29/2010 by Finn1916]

Originally posted by seagull
That officer screwed up by the numbers.

Being a 9 year police veteran, please explain the "numbers" to me in a situation like this. Please weigh ALL options, Please see ALL evidence, Please articulate how it should of gone down....I would like to hear how this SHOULD of played out.

Originally posted by djvexd
Once again another post by someone who doesn't understand the amount of training these officers go through. They are not these mercenaries who kick in doors and kill everything that moves. This was an accident.

So accidents are what happens when someone is well trained then?

Funny, I always thought it was the opposite.

reply to post by rcwj1975


I should probably have phrased that differently. Seems to be my day for it...

From what I've gathered, and I'm no expert, certainly not nine years worth..., but that many shots with others in the car seems wrong to me...a screw up, if you will.

If you could point out to me why it wasn't, I would be grateful. I try not to be ignorant, if I can avoid it.

Originally posted by seagull
I should probably have phrased that differently. Seems to be my day for it...

From what I've gathered, and I'm no expert, certainly not nine years worth..., but that many shots with others in the car seems wrong to me...a screw up, if you will.

If you could point out to me why it wasn't, I would be grateful. I try not to be ignorant, if I can avoid it.

I agree with you that 42 rounds should of never been fired, BUT I also know the reality of a high stress situation, especially for officers who may have been involved with thier first shooting. We can train ALL DAY on a FATS machine (basically a big TV screen with IR lasers in the weapons), shoot all day at the range, hell even use simunitions, but all of that training cannot and WILL NOT prepare you mentally for an actual shoot. The muscle memory takes over and the brain pretty much stops working for a short period. With that the officer experiance level is the key...obviously if you have been in a shooting once or twice your third, fourth, fifth, etc...will become more managable. So what most likely happend, as it happens alot, the main officer with the shotgun saw an opportunity to take out the felon....BUT, did not see the children in the back seat. Once he fired his round, the other 4 officers brains literally shut down, except for what they instinctively knew, and that was to fire at a threat....i.e. "sympathy fire". It is obviously NOT always a good thing to have happen and needs to be addressed.

Were they being criminally negligent...I don't believe so. Was the shotgun officer being neglegent..again I truly don't believe so. IMO I truly believe he never saw the kids when he fired, but as soon as he fired he needed to evaluate the suspect. If it appeared he did kill or wound the suspect he needs to cease his fellow officers and extracate said douchbag...but that cease fire is MUCH easier said then done.

Its not about you being ignorant SG, its about not having the experiance in a situation like this. I have no issues with people asking questions when we are involved in a shooting. It should be questioned, BUT, it should also be looked at from OUTSIDE the realm of what people THINK they know, and base it one what they ACTUALLY know. Also, (NOT YOU) but there are people who are computer chair Chuck Norris's who have the answers to how it shoulda, woulda, coulda, went down, and they tend to put that infront of facts and reality, which ends up making for one hell of a bias opinion and usually without merit.

boy you cops are dedicated to your work there are other jobs out there but you guys would never willingly give up that power

42 shots fired really 42 and you even try to justify that wow

if a fellow janitor at work took 42 shots at a woman and child in a car over what maybe 10,000 dollars of fake bank money

i sure the hell wouldnt defend him
you cops come on here and just prove how wrong you are

and as a mater of fact i have been in several life or death situations and i kept everyone from dieing

the closest i came was in the basement of a police station were if the other police didnt stop him the officer was going to use his training to shoot me in the basement of a garage inside the police building while i was handcuffed and maced

all because i got in a fight with a guy at a bar

boy you cops are loyal

[edit on 29-3-2010 by dean007]

Originally posted by dean007
boy you cops are dedicated to your work there are other jobs out there but you guys would never willingly give up that power

Your right, I am dedicated to my profession...thanks. The rest of your comment is...well BS.

42 shots fired really 42 and you even try to justify that wow

Really...where am i justifying it? Or is that MY EXPERIANCE is pointing out why it may have happened...guess you need to be a little smarter and not work harder at trying to put words in other peoples mouths.

if a fellow janitor at work took 42 shots at a woman and child in a car over what maybe 10,000 dollars of fake bank money

Uhhhhhh.....hmmmmmm...yeah!

you cops come on here and just prove how wrong you are

and as a mater of fact i have been in several life or death situations and i kept everyone from dieing

I know...how dare we explain the reality of a situation like this...of course your saying you have been there done that several times...so next time, I think they should call you..not 911...

the closest i came was in the basement of a police station were if the other police didnt stop him the officer was going to use his training to shoot me in the basement of a garage inside the police building while i was handcuffed and maced

all because i got in a fight with a guy at a bar

Awesome story...I am SURE the true details of this would of been great to see

boy you cops are loyal

Thanks...

reply to post by rcwj1975

Thank you for your post in reply.

First off I was not trying to excuse the bank robber. I was just trying to point out when the banks rob the people they should not be surprise to be robbed back…. When the system falls apart as it has in recent times people become stressed and do things that they would not normally have done. This probably is not the case with this bank robber but we don’t know his story and I was just trying to point that out. Of course if true would not excuse his actions. Regards to the bank robbers gun being unloaded again only pointing out that was a possibility as if this person was a victim of circumstances then it is possible he meant no harm and the best way to show those intentions would be to have an unloaded gun… You are correct in not taking any chances. I would not either, however, since he has not fired that weapon I would not have put public in danger by firing my weapon when there is a hostage situation as I am no Mel Gibson and neither are most Leos. I don’t understand why 42 bullets when a woman was visible in the car. I don’t care if the Leos did not see the children and like me, you are taking the devils advocate in this suggestion! The fact is there was a woman in the car, which make shooting unless you are Mel Gibson reckless and endangering an innocent bystander!

As for the "have taken the courage not to have fired"..wtf is that?

Simple just because the other Leos were shooting without a clear shot, to be seen not to have shot your weapon in the eyes of fellow Leos would have taken courage. To stand up for what your training has taught you not to endanger innocent life rather to follow the pack as it were. 42 bullets in the car was not protecting the hostage it was putting her at risk. Law of averages 42 shots I am amazed that there was only 1 hit. This proves my fathers point that they are not using much metal in cars anymore….

Yes I do believe that Leos protect the Rich and their wealth.

We as THE PEOPLE need to address this and change it...but robbing banks at gunpoint and then putting an innocent family at risk IS NOT THE WAY

I agree with you! I do not believe and don’t think many Americans believe anymore that people can make a change in the system. I used to vote by post until I found out that postal votes are not counted. This came out when GW Bush was first “elected” as announced by the BBC! When the president passes a health care reform bill that many Americans do not want and when Corps and Banks are bailed out with taxpayers money without the people given a choice I and many Americans IMHO believe “We the PEOPLE” are powerless. I feel there will be more people breaking laws as a result of this break down of the system.

I believe in the power of the police radio and helicopters to help solve the problem of the hostage taken and not the power of 5 Leos hoping to get a round in to win the Mel Gibson award and praise of fellow Leos. You asked who would be at fault if the hostages were killed later, my answer is clearly the bank robber. Considering it is not clear that the bank robber fired any shots in the getaway, that idea is extreme. I guess if I were to blame someone, if the robber was allowed to escape because it was unsafe to fire their weapons then it would be that there was not enough police on the beat in which the radio dispatcher could direct or a helicopter or other patrols to head em off at the pass as it were. I don't believe the police lack funds just look at the fancy equipment you were talking about in other thread! But the radio was not given a chance and a little boy is seriously hurt.

What I trying to explain that you were speaking one sided was not protecting the bank robber but your suggesting that other posters were one sided I was poorly trying to point out your one sided point of view. Leos close ranks when wrong doing takes place.. You are on the side of the system, which has been broken. It is becoming more and more clear that the Leo is not there for the man on the street that is my point of view which is also one sided. My one sided point of view is because at one time I tried to protest the broken system and make a difference with people power when I live in America. I now have, as I explained in other threads, “SSSS” on my plane tickets for exercising my freedom of speech. The Leos who were present during the Vets protest marches with their movie cameras (Video cameras were not around in that era) were not there for my protection or the crowds but to record who was peacefully protesting and this has harmed me. I cannot take my “SSSS” to any courts since I have never been arrested or charged ever with any crime so my one sided is from my experiences and not a bad attitude! I take it your point of view is also from your experiences.

I only hope that the little boy will heal and the so called justice to be sensible.

Sorry I am not a gifted writer but I am trying to be understood!!!!

For me the question has to be "what would the police academy train a new recruit to do in this scenario":

You have an armed hostage taker trying to drive off in a car occupied by an unknown female who you have heard him threaten, you may or may not also be aware of a child in the rear seat.

Do you:

a) Observe and report from a distance in pursuit vehicles.

b) Call in air observation if available.

c) Engage the threat.

d) Other - specify

If you believe the hostages life to be in immediate danger, do you change your assessment.

It's easy for us all to second guess someone who was in a life or death situation from the comfort of our keyboards, but as a firearms enthusiast I feel obliged to add that even if the officers found it necessary (in their judgement) to open fire, the use of an 18 inch shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot (I didn't notice any slug like holes) from anything other than contact or near contact distance where a hostage is involved is a poor tactical choice at best, and reckless at worst.

I can't give a more honest, and possibly ill-informed, assessment than that.