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Toddler Shot By Police Aiming for Suspect

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posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 08:38 AM
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This cop should be charged, not suspended with pay, not suspended without pay, charged. You never, and I mean never, fire a shotgun in a public place. Shotguns are there to help in a closed environment, ie. shot fired at a suspected gang house.

A shotgun?!




posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by djvexd
reply to post by Hawkwind.
 


Once again another post by someone who doesn't understand the amount of training these officers go through. They are not these mercenaries who kick in doors and kill everything that moves. This was an accident.



I do understand how much training these officers have and that just makes this case even worse, he was actually fully trained and he still made a severely bad judgement, thanks for highlighting that little fact. Or can you please explain how it was an ''accident'' and not just an extremely bad judgement call? I've respect for the law in general but there are just too many cowboys in it for the action and the power.



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkwind.
 


Once again another post by someone who doesn't understand the amount of training these officers go through. They are not these mercenaries who kick in doors and kill everything that moves. This was an accident.


Ok, So this guy was close enough to shoot into the car. Did this car not have ...Tires? Shooting out the tires would have greatly reduced the effectiveness of using this car as a get away vehicle, forcing the thief to flee or abandon the vehicle.

Maybe they should search the officers house for copies of "Bad Boys" or "Cobra"... because he sure wasn't using the "Training" provided him.

..Ex



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by v3_exceed
 



Hey there, V3. That quote above, that wasn't me mate, that was Djvexd. Could you edit it slightly please or could a mod do it and then delete this post please? Thanks.



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 04:18 PM
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The problem I have with the above postings that suggest the parents should sue and receive bucket loads of cash is simple, it is the Leo's fault for the poor decision, not the tax payer. I am tired of hearing Leo's mistakes are covered by the taxpayer. Perhaps it is time to introduce malpractice insurance for Leos like doctors need to pay for malpractice insurance.

I also keep hearing what outstanding training Leos receive before going on the beat. This begs the question why are so many Leos making bad decisions. Is it the training or on that training day the Leo in question has taken a a sick or personal day off?

The Leo who killed an innocent by stander in London during the G20 summit this last year still hasn't been charged.

London Leo kills innocent man walking home from the game and wasn't a G20 Summit Protester

I guess it will be the tax payer again paying the relatives of the victim rather than the person responsible!!!

I hope the child and parents recover from this horrific bad decision.



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 04:44 PM
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Shotguns are so yesterday. That police officer should have been using a rifle like an AR-15 with a 16' barrel. Or something similar. I mean--don't get me wrong--a shotgun is great and all but it does far too much indiscriminate damage. Even if he was using a slug. A slug can over-penetrate.


MBF

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by IceHappy
The problem I have with the above postings that suggest the parents should sue and receive bucket loads of cash is simple, it is the Leo's fault for the poor decision, not the tax payer. I am tired of hearing Leo's mistakes are covered by the taxpayer. Perhaps it is time to introduce malpractice insurance for Leos like doctors need to pay for malpractice insurance.


I guess it will be the tax payer again paying the relatives of the victim rather than the person responsible!!!

I hope the child and parents recover from this horrific bad decision.


I was in an accident a few days ago. The police were chasing a woman, it all started from a running a stop sign incident, then it was determined that the woman "may be driving on a suspended license". The officer attempted to make an arrest and the woman took off. This is the part that got everybody worked up, the officer was dragged down the road. It has been said that the officer was trying to turn the key off. Any way, after a 40-50 mile chase, I was hit by the woman doing 120 mph coming out of a school zone. She also hit another woman, 3 broke ribs, punctured lung and a broken collar bone. The woman didn't have any insurance. I am covered by up to $50,000 medical insurance from the truck that I was driving and I assume the other woman hit is covered by her auto insurance. Should our insurance have to pay for something that we didn't cause? The only way that I was covered is that there was uninsured motorist insurance on the truck that I was driving.

Thirty-two cars were chasing the Ford minivan. How can a minivan out run 32 police cars? Most of the time, the chase was in rural areas, why couldn't she be stopped? The woman that started the chase, I have heard that she was in ICU in critical condition and I have heard that she died. Was the chase worth putting all those lives in danger over such minor offenses? I think they were more interested in being part of the chase than actually stopping the person.

The police departments could save a lot of money if they would park their police interceptors and buy Ford minivans.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by djvexd
 


Pulling the trigger is NEVER an accident. Regardless of how much training they have they certainly didn't apply it in this instance.
That was a really lame line about how he thought he heard him say "I'm gonna kill you". Nice way to cover your ass.
The suspect NEVER fired a shot.
There were clearly innocents in the car.
You DO NOT SHOOT.
PERIOD.
42 shots that should NOT have been fired.
We know who should be fired.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by jerico65
Quick question, children.

Does anyone think that the ass-hat with the 357 that just robbed the freakin' bank ought to be charged with anything???

The cop will be investigated for this. Love to see how a lot of posters just want to take him out and throw him in jail (right, andy1033?).


Quick question Jericho,

What benefit do you see from charging corpses with crimes?



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:22 AM
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This situation is tragic and I am pretty sure the officer in question is NOT patting himself on the back. Most people who post on topics such as this tend to make me shake my head. Not because you have an opinion, since you have a right to share such opinions, but because most likely NONE of you have been in a situation that FORCED you to make a split second LIFE or DEATH decision that will effect you, the suspect, and others involved FOREVER!

Do you guys have ANY CLUE what happens to you, regardless of training, when your body and mind are forced into a situation like this? Do you guys have ANY CLUE how fast this stuff happens and how quick you have to run it all through your mind and make judgement calls?

It is VERY easy to sit back and say he should of, could of, might have, etc...when your not there and not forced to make a decision in real time. I have been on bank robbery calls and the entire time your in route to the location your mind is racing. Your trying to think about every possible scenerio and what you can do if it happens. Did he kill any clerks, whats he armed with, what are his intentions, has he done this before, has he killed before, is he in the mindset that he won't go to prison, does he have help sitting somewhere that will be a threat, and a host of other things go through your mind...and thats before you get there. Then you arrive on scene and its no longer a THINKING thing, its a REAL TIME REACTION thing.

So once it IS determined he is armed, does anyone know he WILL NOT use it? NOPE...and most of the time the suspect doesn't even know..and thats where it gets truly dangerous. So then for a guy who already showed he will rob a bank at gunpoint decides to carjack an innocent family at gunpoint...what are his intentions? People on here who act like they know disgust me..because NO ONE knows. He was masked..so if he takes it off or she can ID him in anyway and they DO get away...why wouldn't he execute her?

That of course leads into another problem. Cops allow this guy to speed off with the family in the car. Do they give chase? This guy takes off at high speeds and if the cops chase who is at fault if they crash and EVERYONE in the car is killed? I know the answer, but the mindset of some on here I am VERY curious what YOU think.

Then we have people who will say shoot out the tires or shoot the engine block. Yes all fine an dandy and easy to say while NOT in the heat of the moment. Plus if you disable the car you just have to be prepared for a true hostage situation in that car, sitting in town, at a Wendy's...and the outcome of that is also unknown because NO ONE knows what the suspect or mother will do.

The stress of situations like this cannot be explained by words on a website, or even face to face conversation. Until you have to make that choice to kill, die, shoot, not shoot, chase, not chase, etc...and make it in usually less than 5 seconds...you really have no idea what your talking about. Hell I have been in shootings and won't judge this officers desicion because I WASN'T THERE and have no idea what he saw or thought...only he knows since he was part of it.

NOW...one thing I am upset about and the police SHOULD be questioning is the other 42 shots into the vehicle. Reading the article it "appears" some officers fired into the car using whats called sympathy fire, rather then truly getting good target acquisition.

Finally to those of you who love bashing cops and want to blame this officer for EVERYTHING....just think...if the scumbag didn't ROB A BANK AT GUNPOINT...and then CARJACK A CAR AND INNOCENT FAMILY AT GUNPOINT....none of this would of happened...but I know I know ..its the cops fault...

Good luck to the little guy...hope he pulls through!!!!


EDIT TO ADD: I am sure not many on here who will want to hang this officer know what tunnel vision is. IMO and reading the article, I can bet they had no idea there were even kids in the car. They probably only saw the suspect and the adult in the front...some will call that negligence, but those who have been through it and experienced things like this can tell you...YOU CANNOT and WILL NOT see everything...anyone who says otherwise is a liar and fool.

[edit on 3/29/2010 by rcwj1975]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by silo13
My thoughts and prayers go out to the officer.
I can't even imagine the hell of living with the death of a child on my conscience - the action causing the death 'justified' in my mind or not.
As for the parents of the child? I hope they too can find peace.

peace


I almost choked when I read your post: You are praying for the COP?? That is like praying that Hitler doesn't have any sleepless nights because of his conscience.

I am praying for the BABY that was shotgunned by a cop who decided that shooting into a car full of civilians is OK, as long as he gets the arrest.

Collateral damge....thats all we civilians are to cops...don't waste time praying for that cop...as long as he doesn't get sued he will be right back doing the same thing, with the blessings of his superiors.

Save the prayers for the baby and HIS family...they need them a lot more than some cop..believe that.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by richierich

Originally posted by silo13
My thoughts and prayers go out to the officer.
I can't even imagine the hell of living with the death of a child on my conscience - the action causing the death 'justified' in my mind or not.
As for the parents of the child? I hope they too can find peace.

peace


I almost choked when I read your post: You are praying for the COP?? That is like praying that Hitler doesn't have any sleepless nights because of his conscience.

I am praying for the BABY that was shotgunned by a cop who decided that shooting into a car full of civilians is OK, as long as he gets the arrest.

Collateral damge....thats all we civilians are to cops...don't waste time praying for that cop...as long as he doesn't get sued he will be right back doing the same thing, with the blessings of his superiors.

Save the prayers for the baby and HIS family...they need them a lot more than some cop..believe that.


Richie normally I agree with what you write but have to stand back from this one. I understand where Silo13 is coming from. No punishment will ever equal the disapproval of one persons feelings inside their mind for their actions in situations such as this.

Like many actions legal or otherwise one makes can take a lifetime to anguish over. I don't know a single Veteran who has a clear conscious for their actions in war let alone taking an innocent life and in this case being a 2 year old who was shot must be the worse feeling ever.

A free thinker should consider everyone even for the one who was responsible for making a dumb decision. The shot was not intended for the youngster it was a very bad decision.

RCWJ1975 I think you are one sided as you labeled many of us posters but on the other side. Some of us have been under fire and know the courage to pull or not the trigger. The current economic situation is adding to people stress and leaving them to do things under normal economical situation that they would not do. This could be the greedy bankers that pushed the man with the 357 to do what he did. The weapon may not have even been loaded. The officers was and should have taken courage not to have fired.

When will the bankers be held liable for the damage they have created and taxpayers money lost that could have been spent for better purposes. The banks were just being greedy and they got away with it. This will forever effect many lawful people lives and may make them do things to survive that they would normally never had done before having their life savings and/or retirement stolen from them.

We don't know this bank robbers reasons for doing what he did nor do we of the officer for pulling the trigger when he did. RCWJ1975 you are being one sided yourself blaming the bank robber over the Leo who pulled the trigger, the bank robber could have made a bad mistake just like the Leo who did the shooting.... ie the bank robber lost his job, life savings and about to loose the house he was paying on for many years. We don't know but the Banks are not innocent parties.... which is what those 5 Leos were doing by firing 42 shots protecting the Bankers loot..... Leos are the Rich mans army.

Of course my thoughts are on the little boy and his parents. I pray he comes out without lasting handicaps and the family not to be bitter...

edited for grammar which still suxs.....

[edit on 3/29/2010 by IceHappy]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 12:51 PM
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The mother of this unfortunate victim should have a chance to blow a hole in that pig with a shotgun. An eye for an eye!!!



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 01:05 PM
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I did not submit this story to bash cops, I submitted it because JSO has been the local news quite a bit over police shootings that happen under questionable conditions as well as the excess amount of shots fired in many of those cases. I don't blame the officer's for taking out a armed bank robber, what bothered me was the decision to use a shotgun and the scores of bullets in the car.

I am going to through out a theory that may be nothing but speculation. I've talked to a few people about this locally even a few 'vagrants' and some of them told of a thug who has a women and her toddler that are used as 'hostages' for his getaway. Pretty much the women will drop the man off and she will wait in the car with her toddler as the getaway. This thug has gotten away before because armed civilians didn't want to fire into a vehicle with apparently innocent people in it. If such a thug does/did exist and not some vagrant lore it could of been him robbing that bank and I could understand why so much force was used. Just a theory to through out there in hopes the reader can understand the kinds of criminals that are out there.

The toddler is still alive though still fighting for his life. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved including the police officer's. This is such a tragic case.

www.news4jax.com...




[edit on 29-3-2010 by jrod]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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I don't think some of you are reading the full article and just reading the quote in the OP. There was 42 shots fired into the car from 5 officers, not just one with a shotgun.

From full article...

According to Rutherford, after the car was carjacked, five officers responding to the scene fired 42 shots at the car as it drove away, including the officer who shot at the suspect while at Wendy's, two officers as the car drove off and two officers as the car drove over the median in the road. " "We could see police just in a triangle and they were shooting at the back and both sides and the car rolled a little bit and stopped," witness Carolyn Byrd told Channel 4.


Bold emphasis mine.

Stood in a triangle and shot 42 rounds into a car with a woman and two kids! They didn't care who they hit! To stop a bank robber that may not have even fired his gun, and killed no one in the robbery? Seems to me the Jacksonville Police need to re-evaluate their ROE.

If this poor little boy dies then these officers should be charged with manslaughter at least and spend some years behind bars to give them a chance to realize their mistake and should lose their jobs no matter the outcome of the little boy.

I still can't get over the 42 rounds. That's just unbelievable. It's a miracle the little girl wasn't hit.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Quick question, children.


Not a child, but I'll answer you anyway.


Does anyone think that the ass-hat with the 357 that just robbed the freakin' bank ought to be charged with anything???


Of course he should be...that should go without saying. Bank robbery, at the very least. I'm sure a creative DA could come up with any number of other charges, just to keep things hopping.


The cop will be investigated for this.


Are you saying the officer shouldn't be investigated? At the very least, that LEO was dangerously incompetent, more like criminally negligent.


Love to see how a lot of posters just want to take him out and throw him in jail (right, andy1033?).


If he's guilty of negligence that leads to the death, or permanent incapacitation of that child, jail should be the least of his worries. That officer screwed up by the numbers. Shouldn't he pay a price for that? That child is...

[edit on 3/29/2010 by seagull]

[edit on 3/29/2010 by seagull]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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One of the comments under the article talks of a woman (assuming the woman in the car) saying that the shotgun blast took the robber out and that he slumped over on her. She rolled the car forward hoping the cops would see and stop firing. They apparently didn't stop until their guns were empty.

It's just a comment on there so take it as you wish.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by seagull
 


As much as I am upset with the Leo who shot the boy I feel every Leo that put a round into that car should not be in the position to put the public at risk again.

Jail the Leo that shot the 2 year old boy? I honestly do not know the correct punishment. True I don't trust Leos, however, I don't wish harm to them! I also feel that putting the Leo who put the slug into the little boy will be receiving far more punishment than he deserves in jail. It is historic that Leos are singled out in prison as are the people who harm young people. This Leo has both counts against him sort of like 2 strikes. However I don't think he should be excused either!

Keeping in mind what I just said in the above paragraph if the child dies what would be "just" justice? Putting the Leo in jail where he may be harmed many times cannot be justice so what do you guys think??????

[edit on 3/29/2010 by IceHappy]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 02:24 PM
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The peanut gallery reminds me of my days at laser village with the reporters & other civilians.

Laser village is an interactive training arena where you shoot at a screen with a plastic gun.. various shoot don't shoot scenarios play on a near 360 screen, the laser rounds you cap off at the screen suspects appear as red dots.

Reporters & civilians mostly shot / killed babys, pregnant women, by standers, bums.. everyone but the armed suspects.. or they were summarily blown away by the imaginary villain for hesitating a split second too long..

The suspect was a fleeing armed felon that presented an immediate danger to the community, as far as the officers were concerned, they had a few seconds at most to decide weather or not to fire.. letting the suspect kidnap those folks, in the officers opinion, probably, was equal to letting them vanish forever / be killed.

Snap your fingers, thats how long you have to decide what to do. Hesitate and maybe you die, or let innocent people (witnesses) be kidnapped by a violent & armed suspect who is desperate enough to wreak havoc on the local community if he escapes.

Although it doesn't "look good", a newspaper article is pretty far from enough information to determine weather it was a good shoot, time will tell.

Officers off probation have specific rights, usually after a shooting they are placed on administrative leave pending a full review of the incident.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by IceHappy
RCWJ1975 I think you are one sided as you labeled many of us posters but on the other side.


Actually I didn't...I said SOME...unlike many posters on ATS who actually DO label ALL cops as murderes, Nazi's, etc.....


Some of us have been under fire and know the courage to pull or not the trigger.


Your right, some may have, but reading what MANY write it is EASy to see they have not. Not in a military aspect, and definitly not as a LEO. Anyone with common sense should know being under fire, or even in a firefight as a soldier is WAY different then making a split second decision as a LEO when you fire your weapon. Also, keep in mind not all cops were ex-military so this may be there very first rodeo when it comes to firing a weapon real time and not at some paper target. Words CANNOT describe the emotions and physical changes that occur when you are actually about to kill someone...I can tell you FROM EXPERIANCE that the speed of reality is faster than the brain can handle. You make a choice in the blink of an eye that everyone else gets HOURS, DAYS, and WEEKS to judge....and most of those judging have never and will never be put in a situation like those they are judging.


The current economic situation is adding to people stress and leaving them to do things under normal economical situation that they would not do. This could be the greedy bankers that pushed the man with the 357 to do what he did. The weapon may not have even been loaded. The officers was and should have taken courage not to have fired.


Well I understand times are tough and you know, robbing a bank is one thing, and maybe I can feel for him if he is in that hard of a situation...but when you take that weapon and FORCEFULLY carjack an innocent woman with kids...your "hard times at home" don't mean a damn thing anymore. There is NO EXCUSE once you go to that level...KNOWING your putting those kids and woman in danger is ALL ON YOU!

As for the "weapon may not be loaded", when exactly would YOU like to find that out?

As for the "have taken the courage not to have fired"..wtf is that? Ok so as I stated before, so what do they do, let him flee in a vehicle and give chase hoping he doesn't crash and kill EVERYONE in the car or other drivers on the road? Let him go and HOPE he doesn't execute her for possibly IDing him later? Let him take them hostage for a standoff that could end just as bad or worse? Please, tell me...


When will the bankers be held liable for the damage they have created and taxpayers money lost that could have been spent for better purposes. The banks were just being greedy and they got away with it. This will forever effect many lawful people lives and may make them do things to survive that they would normally never had done before having their life savings and/or retirement stolen from them.


We as THE PEOPLE need to address this and change it...but robbing banks at gunpoint and then putting an innocent family at risk IS NOT THE WAY.


We don't know this bank robbers reasons for doing what he did nor do we of the officer for pulling the trigger when he did.


I again don't care about his reasons once he decided an innocent family looked like an easy vitim to carjack and use them as shields or a get away method.

As for the officer...that is correct, I wasn't there and neither was anyone else here. I have no true idea why he fired when he did, but there are SOOOO many factors people are leaving out and not bothering to see that no matter what its all the cops fault. I already agree that the 42 rounds needs to be investigated and I am pretty sure i know why it happened, but still needs to be addressed.



RCWJ1975 you are being one sided yourself blaming the bank robber over the Leo who pulled the trigger, the bank robber could have made a bad mistake just like the Leo who did the shooting.... ie the bank robber lost his job, life savings and about to loose the house he was paying on for many years. We don't know but the Banks are not innocent parties.... which is what those 5 Leos were doing by firing 42 shots protecting the Bankers loot..... Leos are the Rich mans army.


One sided...sorry I have no sympathy for a man putting a family at risk for his issues. Again if he wants to rob a bank to get back at the bank owners...fine, just be ready to deal with the consequences. Once he put that family at risk for NOTHING...I no longer give a flyin F what his issues are. You really think they were protecting the money? They were presented with a situation where this guy tried to carjack an occupied car...I HIGHLY doubt they cared about insured money, as the 4 bank robbery calls I have been on, I didn't care about the cash, I cared about the innocent people the aholes were willing to kill to get away with it.

Again, and I am sure many will NOT even consider this..but I am betting that all 5 officers had no idea there were kids in that car. They saw the suspect and woman...kids that young would of been in the back in child seats and impossible to see from outside....the focus IMO was on NOT letting an armed man kidnap a woman to kill her during a chase or afterwards so she couldn't ID him...again i ask you...had they let them drive off...who is at fault if they die in a wreck or are executed?



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