It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why we push for healthcare reform

page: 1
14
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 06:56 PM
link   
Whether you supported this healthcare reform bill or not, its situations like this that reminds us how broken our system has been, and how many people are suffering because of it:



This is but one of many examples where people have suffered under this privatized system of healthcare. I find it even more astounding that many opponents of reform still insist that further 'deregulation' and dismantling of social systems will solve the crises. I ask you where earth you get the idea that these healthcare insurers will act any differently to sufferers like this baby here if they are given the ability to completely dictate coverage.

I mean we even have pro-lifers opposing this bill outright, rallying with those who wish to give the insurers more power to dictate, and yet there are newborns out there, newly born american citizens who are refused coverage already. Its just completely hypocritical and astounding to me. Heck this reform bill itself is not effective enough to fully fix this system, and I would expect that opponents would atleast come up with real alternatives and debate of the matter. Instead for the vast majority its just about opposing any necessary regulation and its about throwing names for political sake.

Opponents say we should focus on the economy now and on this later. This is a major part to the problem facing our economy. Folks fighting and spending most of their income on healthcare. 60% of bankruptcies last year were strongly contributed by the costs of healthcare:
www.reuters.com...

Opponents say we should have focused on other priorities first. They forget that we had decades to sort this issue out. We had a chance in the 90's when things were relatively good and healthcare was on the plate but even that was eventually dismissed by Republicans and conservatives.

Opponents say we should have focused on unemployment first. Healthcare costs have been a burden to small american businesses for years and its taken a toll on unemployment in this country:
www.cnn.com...

Atleast with those businesses choosing to outsource jobs prior to this reform bill they didnt have to deal with the costs of covering employees.

With this bill in place now I hope these parents take advantage, possibly take these insurers to court for coverage in reference to this new reform bill. Atleast now they know that they have a strong case now with this bill in place. I hope they take action.


[edit on 26-3-2010 by Southern Guardian]




posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 07:59 PM
link   
At the base of my concern are people...

I cannot stand to see individuals picked off because they do not have the resources or extensive infrastructure to stand up to profit machines. As a person this is what makes this whole debate insane. I often feel I am talking AMERICANS people and others are discussing tabulations or mythical beings. Some time I feeling I am fighting this attitude
more than any specific tangible action.

anyhow its a shame, this is such a basic realm, again that this mode of profit should be
defended in any fashion truly sucks.

Anyhow

money.blogs.time.com...



Since 1999, health insurance premiums for families rose 131%, the report found, far more than the general rate of inflation, which increased 28% over the same period. Overall, health care in the United States is expected to cost $2.6 trillion this year, or 17% of the nation's economy, according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.



in any of you would bother to calculate at home (remember to compound)

2.6 trillion now - at the current rate of inflation 131% per decade

roughly 5 trillion by 2020

roughly 11.5 trillion by 2030

given that this 131%- per decade inflation remains unabated

thats well over GDP by 2040

If the humanity won't do it, maybe the cost will, I do not foresee any miracles,
we need to get our act together



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 09:00 PM
link   
I wish I could hear the video. My audio is screwed. But the picture of the baby itself is saddening. I agree we need reform.

I will honestly say that I am against this bill. But, although I am against it, I respect and accept the fact that it has passed. The way I see it, it is Congresses job to pass legislation and that is what they did.

I am also one of those who felt we should have focused on the economy first. You bring up a good fact about how healthcare affects small businesses. A fact that I admit I overlooked. However, my opinion about the economy was based on the length of time Congress took passing the bill.

I just feel a lot of Americans would have been better served if A) Congress had passed the bill earlier or B) if Congress had taken the first few months to fully address the economy. We both know Congress was going to pass it anyway with a Democrat controlled Congress and WH. We also both know that this bill will never be repealed or decided by a court. Healthcare reform is here to stay.

I still don't believe this bill will reduce healthcare costs or premiums, but I truly hope I am proven wrong.

Now that healthcare is passed, I am really hoping that Congress turns its full attention to the economy. It won't help my brother's situation, but maybe it will improve the economy in time before other Americans find themselves in a similar situation.

Finally, just want to say this is a well written thread with some very good points. Although we may not see eye to eye on some issues, your contributions are always worth reading.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 09:22 PM
link   
Thank you, SG for bringing this to light. It's good of you to remind people of WHY we who support health reform do so with such passion. This is too sad for words. I certainly hope things change for this baby with the new law.

There's a website to donate to Houston's medical care: Houston Tracy Fund

reply to post by jam321
 


You rock, jam. I don't know how else to say it. I know you're a 'conservative' and you give me hope that there are still decent, open-minded conservatives out there.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 10:49 PM
link   
It's cases like this that were a main reason for health care reform to begin with. The pressing question now is: what are we going to do about this kind of problem until the law gets fully implemented in a few years?

You would think insurers would be ashamed of doing exactly what caused them to be regulated in the first place, now that their reputation is already so tarnished, but I guess corporations have no souls to be damned so what do they have to fear? They may as well keep raking in the profits as long as they can.

All the more reason to separate health care and other entitlement programs from greedy corporations through a single-payer plan or at least a robust public option. We didn't get it this time but hopefully it will be implemented one day in the not so distant future.

I hope this baby will be eligible for medicaid or other assistance program, though possibly his parents make a little too much money to qualify (not enough to pay for the tremendous medical costs, but a little too much for aid. That happens to a lot of people). A social worker at the hospital should be able to guide them through the application process.

As a last resort, they can take Houston to an emergency room every time he needs treatment. He cannot be refused for any reason, including unpaid bills. They can also just wrack up huge medical bills and pay, say, $50 a month toward the debt. As long as you are paying something they cannot come after you. Hospitals and doctors are usually reluctant to go after people with medical debts anyway because of the bad publicity they can get for picking on sick people. Usually they just turn the bills over to a collection agency, which can call you ten times a day but can't do much else to you (a lawyer can also advise you how to legally stop the phone calls). As a last resort (and one that many, many people take) is to file for bankruptcy.

All of these options, of course, would destroy his parents' credit rating, which is worth more than gold in our society.

We can only hope and pray, which is what Americans have been doing for centuries before now.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 11:20 PM
link   
reply to post by jam321
 


Jam...you have integrity...and you care. I have the utmost respect for you because of this. You are not one who falls to the endless rhetoric. It speaks volumes of who you are...even though we'll never agree on some things.

You share the same concerns as many of us do. We just want what is best for our families...and we want what is best for others.

That is what American should be about. You get it jam. I wish more were independent minded as you are. You remain open minded when everything seems to point all of us in the direction of hate.

It speaks volumes of your character.

I don't know if you can recall...but I have had endless battles with Southern Guardian and Mental Modulator in the past. We used to be at each other's throats daily. It's not like that anymore with us. I understand that they care. They don't want American to fail. It doesn't matter what we all truly believe in...we just want what is best for our country.

I have learned more from those that I have disagreed with in the last year than I could have ever learned from those who used to agree with my opinions.

Too many here want so strongly to be right that they will ignore anything that may prove them wrong.

I've been wrong. I'm probably wrong on things now and will likely will be in the future...but that certainly doesn't mean I don't care...and I know that you are the same.

Continue to stay true to yourself jam.

on topic:

I'm not a religious man...but if there is a God...he would never allow a child to be mistreated as shown in the OP.

This is NOT america. This is not me and it's not most of us. We are a better people than this and it's about damn time WE SHOW IT.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 11:56 PM
link   
I am sure that like Jam there are many conservatives out there that will find common ground on the issue of healthcare in this nation with those pushing for reform. It is just a damn shame though that any objective arguments are clouded by talking media heads. I even find myself frustrated with some fellow liberals insisting that this bill is 'perfect' and our work here is done. No our work is not done, this bill is not full reform and the corporations will find loopholes around it.

In afew years we may very well find the same corporate suspects cheating people in some way or another. A strong single payer system or a public option where citizens can look to as a last resort is needed to put these corporate scammers in their place. They make as much money off the uninsured as they do those who are insured under them and this has to stop. Putting regulations on these insurers will hold them accountable for the time being, but this reform at current is not definite in fixing our problem with healthcare here. Its a good step, but its not 'a job done'.

Just seeing situations like baby Houston's here reminds me of why I stand strong behind an alternative public healthcare system. I'd say even by eliminating medicare, medicaid and in place putting out an overall strong public option for all those who are left out from the insurers is the best type of reform we can get, and its a necessary one. A net will not catch fish if it has holes in it, and right now medicare and medicaid while assisting many in these cirumstances still leave many americas out. I just can't understand for the life of me how many of those opposing this bill are so hypocritical to the point where pro-lifers end their support once the child is born. Where did our society go wrong to have this mentality consume?


[edit on 27-3-2010 by Southern Guardian]



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:03 AM
link   
Interesting points you bring up (especially about how health costs negatively impact the economy and by reforming health care, we improve the economy).

Anyways, with that said, I'd like to bring up a point I believe many miss when raising examples like in the OP (concerning tragedies caused by our current health care).

And that is, if you stop random people on the street, I would feel confident in assuming that most would say the system is a mess and we need reform. However, the concern in many people's minds is not that we don't need reform- it's that this specific bill doesn't really address the problem in a fair manner.

And, no, I'm not talking about death panels and other rumors.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:03 AM
link   
15 months and what is the result? A fascist/corporatist's wet dream. Hell the government gets tax money and the corporations reap huge new list of customers.

Customers with guns to their head.

Go Fascism, go Obama, Go Fascism, Go Obama, Go Fascism, Go Obama!



The reason it took 15 months was to convince America that the dems are not the same as the Repubs.

Yeah, that did not fool everyone. Just the weak minded.

Go Fascism, Go Obama!



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:10 AM
link   
reply to post by Southern Guardian
 





It is just a damn shame though that any objective arguments are clouded by talking media heads. I even find myself frustrated with some fellow liberals insisting that this bill is 'perfect' and our work here is done. No our work is not done, this bill is not full reform and the corporations will find loopholes around it.


I couldn't agree more SG.


You know...as well as I do...Obama keeps attacking the insurance companies even though he cut deals with them long before the bill was passed. It was proven even more so with the lobbyist who were supporting Coakley in the Mass. election against Brown.

But even with that....this bill definitely will help people...and at least in the short term...will stabilize health insurance premiums and get MILLIONS more coverage.

That's a wonderful thing. Small businesses with fewer than 50 employees will not get tax credits covering 35 percent of health care premiums...which will definitely help in numerous ways.

Those earning 88,000 or less will get help with their premiums. That is also a wonderful thing.

This is the help that the middle class needs and I'm all for both of those. Unfortunately, health insurance companies will still be able to profit on life/death issues....that has to change...and it's why I think...in the least a public option....a single payer system is in our countries future...whether we support or suppose such a measure.

I just feel it's inevitable and most likely the only solution.

If we are the greatest nation on the earth...as many of us state....then we should be able to keep our people healthy.

It shouldn't be about money when it comes to our lives....no one should ever profit from the pain and suffering of a human being...whether it be in a hospital...or on the battlefield.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD
And that is, if you stop random people on the street, I would feel confident in assuming that most would say the system is a mess and we need reform. However, the concern in many people's minds is not that we don't need reform- it's that this specific bill doesn't really address the problem in a fair manner.


I will agree with you to the point Ashley. There are many people who would not argue that this healthcare system needs reform, however many of these same people are being misguided in addressing the issue and in turn in becomes a political spat. Thats what Im seeing at the moment, alot of people who say we need reform but spend 99% of their time playing politics and conspiracy. True, there are people who feel very strong against this current reform bill and maybe they feel powerless over what they see as economically harmful to the nation, but it didnt help that many addressed the issue by attacking, pushing aside, or adding conspiracy to the issue. I can say the same for liberals who for many jumped onto to any reform pushed by Democrats and I know that for the most part its politics and partisanship on their side.

I'd bet my bottom dollar Ashley that if we took 100 people off the street, 99 of them will readily admit that our system is broken, and 90 of them will not bother to even address the issue but instead respond it being socialist this, capitalist that, politician this, the media said that. People, however they may claim to be for reform, have being misguided from actually solving the issue. Thats our major problem here.

[edit on 27-3-2010 by Southern Guardian]



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:25 AM
link   
first you must understand what are the root causes of the problems in health care. this health care bill does not address any of the root problems. so far this band aid does not cover 10% of the wound. if you think it does then you got a big surprise coming.

enjoy the health care that you will never get.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:26 AM
link   
I hindsight all,,,

What can be done to please all???

As I posted above, by 2040, at this current rate of inflation, healthcare breaks well past the economic output of this nation.

Its a mathematical certainty based upon the small data set, even if my numbers are off by 50% (heavy) that is still very close to economic output in todays numbers, after compound.

I do understand the frustration, but something has to be done to offset this eventually.

Provided the CBO numbers are correct, we are still headed for a cliff, I sometimes marvel at the cost associated with the industry. How in the hell can we work so hard
only to be chained down by the cost of the short time we are actually ill?

Regardless if you think HCR is a victory or defeat, the looming hard truth is counting down with each day. Some sort of magic has to occur at some point as this is not
maintainable past another generation, provided other debts do not eat us first.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:33 AM
link   
reply to post by David9176
 




This is the help that the middle class needs


See, this is where my problem is. I don't think it's going to help as much as we think it is- it's certainly not going to help me and most of the people I know. I'm in the bracket that means my taxes are about to surge but I won't be eligible for any of the credits. I'm also not in the upper echelons that gets all the sneaky tax write offs.

Once again, here comes another piece of legislation where I find myself paying for everything and getting nothing. Yeah, I'm pretty upset about it.

I'm a fan and supporter of universal health care because everyone would get it. But not this stuff where a great portion of the population will be in 'that zone' of having their taxes increased but not receiving the benefits. Depending on your location, $80,000's, especially for a 2 income family, is not that uncommon.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:38 AM
link   
reply to post by Janky Red
 





Regardless if you think HCR is a victory or defeat, the looming hard truth is counting down with each day. Some sort of magic has to occur at some point as this is not maintainable past another generation, provided other debts do not eat us first.


I agree. It's a cost that will never go away. It will always be there for every single person in this country. As science improves and we live longer...no matter what...we will be going to the doctor as we will die eventually. The longer we live...the higher the costs of maintaining our health system will be.

I don't know what the solution is. I wish I did. I know that something radical has to be done to fix it....and that's partly why I think the health care bill was done in the way it was.

I think that's it's an absolute necessity for us to end our wars and close military bases/embassies to cut down on costs. We need to become a neutral nation...not one that gets entangled in endless foreign conflicts.

It's time we look after our own citizens. It's going to be tough...and much needs to change...but unlike so many on ATS...

I believe we can achieve it.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:43 AM
link   
reply to post by AshleyD
 





Depending on your location, $80,000's, especially for a 2 income family, is not that uncommon.


This is a good point and I've thought about it myself. For areas with a higher standard of living...which is most cities...it doesn't balance out like it should.

This will help those in rural areas far more than those in urban areas...IMO.

These provisions help me. I make far less than 88k a year and I also work for a small businesses that will benefit from tax credits because they employ fewer than 50 people.

I know this isn't the case for everyone...but it will certainly help some people. If not the lower part of the middle class...it will certainly help those on minimum wage.



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by Janky Red
 





Regardless if you think HCR is a victory or defeat, the looming hard truth is counting down with each day. Some sort of magic has to occur at some point as this is not maintainable past another generation, provided other debts do not eat us first.


I agree. It's a cost that will never go away. It will always be there for every single person in this country. As science improves and we live longer...no matter what...we will be going to the doctor as we will die eventually. The longer we live...the higher the costs of maintaining our health system will be.

I don't know what the solution is. I wish I did. I know that something radical has to be done to fix it....and that's partly why I think the health care bill was done in the way it was.

I think that's it's an absolute necessity for us to end our wars and close military bases/embassies to cut down on costs. We need to become a neutral nation...not one that gets entangled in endless foreign conflicts.

It's time we look after our own citizens. It's going to be tough...and much needs to change...but unlike so many on ATS...

I believe we can achieve it.


There is truth in that we probably pay a booty load just for the technological innovation alone.

I told you of my fathers nassia pills

$30,000 for a months course

Remember that?

Clearly the damn pill did not cost $1,000 dollars to make, but never the less
he was so violently ill he was throwing blood clots from the urping.
We paid so much to keep him alive, not much of a choice really.

You know if EVERYONE went thru that stuff at the same time we would all be in some sort of agreement PDQ-

unfortunately illness picks us off one by one, so many do not really have a clue until it is their turn. Then they are isolated, too late, ride it out, pay your lifes work away, your home for a damn natural disease.

Chose your life and comfort over what you worked your life to earn and give to your children.

The give and take of it all is slanted horribly -



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 12:54 AM
link   
As someone said,now they can focus on the economy? The economy this bill will destroy even further?!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

See what today's Wall Street Journal had to say on the matter!



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 01:05 AM
link   
People making 300-400% above poverty level will pay 10% of their PRE tax income for the insurance.

Hear that, 10% pretax income. Now, add in your 7%+3%+25%+state say5%= 40% total taxes


32,490-43,320 is the income for 300%-$400 poverty level


So take home will be 19,494-25,992 respectively

Looks GREAT TO ME!


Now, you go above the 300-400% levels, the calculations get very complicated. I am sure the rate instead of 10% will probably go to 15% and then 20% and then 30%.


People, this is JUST A NEW DAMN TAX nothing else. What happened to the campaign promise of no new taxes on people under 250k.

Oh, I forgot you guys do not see the Dem/Repub paradigm.




If you have any questions on my numbers, I will show you where I got them. I am sure you do not care though. You THINK you are going to get something for free.

Well thanks guys. Go Fascism, Go Obama!



posted on Mar, 27 2010 @ 01:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


Southern Guardian,

I must first say that I almost passed this thread by because I thought it would be another bias 'told ya so' thread, pointing the finger.. sometimes the middle finger, at conservatives and the evil Republicans. I'm very glad that I took the time to read the OP and watch the video.

I'm one of the ones that was against this particular bill. I still am, but I also see where you and those like you are coming from. While we may not agree on the means of reaching the end, we more or less want basically the same solutions. I can deal with that. Understanding of both sides is the first step in reaching a solution.

My three main issues with the bill.. the spending, burden on small businesses, and the mandate to purchase insurance. It isn't the reform of the system that I have a problem with. I think too many on your side of the argument, as with too many on my side as well.. view it all in black and white. From reading your post (I don't think you fall into that catagory, and I respect that while we may disagree.)

My issues with the spending is pretty straight forward. 1) I don't believe the country can afford any more economic burden and I don't believe this program will pay for itself, or will come anywhere close to paying for itself. 2) I don't think it is within the Federal Government's authority to mandate a program that the States will foot the bill for.

Burden on small business.. well, I guess only time will tell on that..

I will say that I can see a lot of people getting dropped from coverage when their employers see that it's cheaper.. a lot cheaper to pay the fines for each employee.. I don't see premiums going down.

The Mandate is my huge issue. The Government has now taxed us for simply being alive.. You can argue with me until we are both blue in the face.. it's a direct attack on our freedoms and I will not budge on that. We can agree to disagree.

There are some smaller issues that at this point, with the bill now law.. aren't really worth the mention. The bill is law, and it's here to stay. I hope that I am wrong about my fears and the economic hardships that it will cause. I really hope it works.

I will say that I appreciate you SG for your very well placed argument without any finger pointing. I can respect those that I disagree with when they are civil.

Star and Flag for you.



new topics

top topics



 
14
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join