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Wrong judgement or judgement gone wrong ?

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posted on Mar, 25 2010 @ 11:55 PM
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Hello ATS.

I have found myself on a frequent and growing puzzling state of wonder.

I have thought about it several times before but after reading a post I was reminded and felt this would be the time to ask others.

What better place then ATS.


It is all about learning. Learning what we should and should not do, what we are allowed or not allowed to do and more specifically, the ways and means used to persuade or force us to behave in a "civilised" manner.

First of all, what is civilised ? In my opinion civilised is nothing more than obedience to the moral ways of the masses. Which is not a bad or wrong thing to do.

Unfortunately the ways and means of the masses are forced and are on occasion absolute stupidity in progress. Not my wonder but I needed to ad this...


All of my life I experience that to learn means to repeat. they only faster way is to screw( or fall down ) up to gain instead knowledge.

So. What's with the law ?
What's with being punished ?

The law punishes bad behaviour. But the way the punish is a bad way.
A speeding ticket will only work for those who can't miss the money.

Above this the money collected threw this punishment is considered income for the state which means they would have to keep doing so or end up with a hole in budget.

Then their is the hole learning part. I don't learn anything more then to better watch out for situations I could get fined. Learning should be because of rehearsal.

Then there are punishments which make someone detained for life or even those that end their life. This means it is no more a way to learn from your mistakes.

Are we ( mankind ) so deeply rotten, so full of hate, bringing so much fear. The mistake part has turned into equal or even more criminal behaviour the "innocent are guilty of , while punishing those who screw up with the same not wanted behaviour in the first place ? ( This goes around for the entire human spectrum of punishment.)

As a whole we do not seem to learn anything and are only guilty of continuing the spiral downwards.

Any thoughts ? ( If It makes sense what I've wrote
)

Sincerely yours.

-SK




posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 02:28 AM
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Welcome to the war of duality. It's a fight of this or that. you have to fight your mind and get it to consider more than "binary". The important thing is to try to understand something by looking at it in reverse. Then have compassion for what it is trying to do. Learn to love and leave the binary world of judgment. If you don't. Karmic law will rip you to shreds.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 06:21 AM
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Hi Sint, and greetings from a fellow Dutchie

What you are talking about are Ethics in its purest form. The science of WRONG vs GOOD
In Philosopy we know a couple of branches that all have their seperate take on ethics and the knowledge of ethics.

What is wrong, and what is good. And what teaches us what is wrong and good...Experience? But How can an experience tell you what is good or wrong? It doesnt, the experience itself, in its purest matter doesnt tell you anything, it still only an experience. How we concieve and experience the experience in key with our emotions makes us decide if its good or bad, for us or for others. Or not?

And when we say something is wrong (when we judge), is it REALLY wrong?... or do we judge it that way because we carry certain emotions or desires with our judgement.

This is a very, very extensive topic.

The Idealistic branch says: People learn from experiences if something it good or wrong, by linking an emotion to the experience. Like disgust, soberness, being happy, anger, etc. If something makes a human angry, we almost automaticly say ''this is bad''

Now this would be a very individualistic philosopy, but then again, maybe ethics are not the be taken as something that covers all and is the same for all. If you look at culture, ethics change all the time depending on knowlegde, economics, religion etc.

The Naturlistic branch boils down everything to Lust and Greed, and doesnt not accept something to be good or wrong, it doesnt acknowledge it. It only acknowledges lust and greed. It hangs on to the theory of everything being influenced by our earliest animalistic instincts and leads everything back to this.

Schopenhauer descarted all of the Naturalistic and Idealistic branches in ethics and simply said: Something is wrong when it does unnessesary harm to others in an unnessesary benefitial way for yourself.

This ofcourse is a very big, and easy thing to say, and as schopenhauer also said: it will always come with its nuances of variety in experiences of the will and soul. but that is quite a big topic to discuss
If you are interested you can PM me.

There are also branches that handle certain laws, of what is good and what is wrong.

So to your topic, laws are made on the ethics of believe systems. Punishment as a nessesary companion for the irresponsible habits of human kind.

Cheers

Solid

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Solidus Green eye]



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by manbird12000
 


Hi manbird. Thank you for your reply.

It is however not my battle and for now I believe myself to have a good sense of duality. My thoughts go way past right or wrong, good or bad and even duality is only in existence because we make it so. If you feel like it I'd love to hear your thougths on the strange contradictive system we have made our own.



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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Nice to meet meet you.

Ethics huh. I didn't know that. I do think I can participate in a conversation about them.
I believe wrong vs. good is an illusion. It is always about personal perception because what is good for me could be easily wrong for you.

Branches ?

Emotions are exactly why we judge . The most basic emotion and the cause for what I believe is contradicting and lies deep within our perception of good or wrong is fear. A natural defense to increase survival is at the same time our biggest enemy. A whole array of emotions others would call sin are fully aware how to harness fear and turn it against the scared. Without fear we would not put up with the crap we are confronted with.

Thank you for your reply.

So tell me what is it that makes us act like star graving fools ?



Our / everybody's judgement is influenced by our emotions. Which have on their turn a lot of origin in inexperience.




Moral even differs with age.

I think I can relate to naturalistic. I believe good and wrong are both sides of the same coin.

I've heard of Schopenhauer before bu I never read his work.

My experience is the entire perspective view of law and ethics can change over night after a simple answer view of opinion.
Therefore I do not believe in the ethics of man. As good as they sound they are always a reflection of the masses and alters with region, religion, race, age and so on.




So to your topic, laws are made on the ethics of believe systems. Punishment as a nessesary companion for the irresponsible habits of human kind.


There is where I see the problem I was trying to tell about.
I agree punishment is necessary.
I do not agree on the ways to punish. To punish crime with crime is hypocrite at best. To go as far as making an income and budget from it is preposterous.

Cheers

Solid

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Solidus Green eye]



posted on Mar, 26 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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Whoops
Double post.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


I agree, to punish a crime with a crime is indeed a hypocrite way of dealing with the irresponsible ways of the humankind. But it seems to remember the people who committed a crime to what they've done wrong...it zaps them back to reality, hopefully long enough to keep them from revisiting the jail house.

Humans have this build in thing called : desire ..
Everything can be related to desire, even fear. Fear is in fact a part of desire.

Ethics are influenced strongly by a couple of factors, some of them are : Well being, culture and..desire. Which are interlinked with each other.

Imagine this: You are poor, the only poor guy in the street. You live in a dump and don't own a car or a drivers license, you don't have a girl/boyfriend. And you work in a C-class warehouse for a crappy paycheck, which barely gets you around every month. And above that, it doesn't give you a big smile about the future either.

All of your friends..or would be friends, or neighbors are doing financially fine, have a girl/boy friend, have a nice house and car, have sex...and maybe have children some day...sound all great right!?

And every time you turn on your TV, this irritating commercial comes on that tries to hook you up with a 50.000 to 100.000 dollar loan. With interest rates up to 17%... With a 5 year down payment..amazing! Of course this would be ridiculous, nobody would make this deal..right?

But if you take this loan now!... like they show you in the commercial..you can also buy that 50.000 dollar car! JUST like your friends... And in this culture that apparently equals STATUS... and status seems to be REALLY important...to some people in certain cultures/sub cultures.

You might imagine what you would be thinking at that moment : Geez everybody else has money, and I don't.. Why didn't I get all the chances and opportunity's they've had! This make the mind switch do 'click' !

And I'm not saying money gets you 'love and happiness' ..thats not the point, thats just an example.

You can see here how culture and desire can change everything. Of course you WANT that car, that girlfriend... what everybody else has... Some try to achieve this by stealing..or raping..etc. And some accept that they just cant have it.

Desire is a strong emotion. Exceptionally desire accompanied with a distorted perspective on reality, which seems to be the case in today's thriving culture ( He has it, so why cant I?! I Have the RIGHT to have what he has!). It can sweep all of your ethics and moral beliefs right from the chart in a second, when combined with other emotion, like anger or fear.

Very interesting topic I think..and very extensive.


Of course everybody has his own subjective opinion about this matter. And it would be foolish to take this to the objective... but I think there is regular way of seeing this in the perspective of 'behaviorism'..if even so slightly.

You might be interested in some books regarding anthropology ::

Here's a dutch wiki link for you : nl.wikipedia.org...

Here's the English one for our foreign friends: en.wikipedia.org...

Here are some good books about anthropology by Claude Levi-strauss.
I don't know if there are any Dutch translation around


- Myth and Meaning: Cracking the Code of Culture
- The Savage Mind (Nature of Human Society)
- Structural Anthropology


Cya Around!



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by Solidus Green eye
 


Thanks.

I would like to share my distorted picture of reality.

I think money does not make you happy. But a lack of it will definitely cause stress and unhappiness.

I have a hard time imagining your example because I do not think like that I think everything more then a descent income to live. Is weird and unnecessary.
I've stopped watching television about a year ago, because of all the crap on it.

I just don't get why the problems of today, like fashion or who has the biggest ,brightest, most expensive. Are even problems at all.
Just car drive away from here people live in extreme poverty.
We are lucky.
Still I feel and am standing in life more positive then anyone I know.


[edit on 28-3-2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 04:59 PM
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Welcome to the world of duality.



posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by manbird12000
 


How do you do.

But still I must say, the only duality inexistence is the when we imagening.

How can I sepperate myself from realty...?



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


It wasn't the point to understand and 'know' my example.. The direction I was tending to was that of the human ethics that can change due to certain factors. Like culture, well-being, social status. etc.

And as said in my post, everything comes down to desire. That is why the big-bigger-biggest becomes a problem in these times. Everybody wants more, and more, and more , and more...

We have lost the sense of having enough.



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