Homosexuality is a choice and nothing else!

reply to post by ModernAcademia

It was a typo
once again, 30 pages should confirm that
thx

your welcome :-)

any little thing I can do to help out

also - what about my question?

:-)

I wonder how many persons on this threadlet believe LEFT HANDEDness is a CHOICE as well?

After all, according to the studies, there are approx 9% of the human population on average on this tiny insignificant little planet that consider themselves primarily LEFT HANDED and 9% of the human population on average consider themselves to be primarily HOMOSEXUAL.

[Not that homosexuals cannot have 'heterosexual sex' i.e. mechanically going through heter-sexual motions (and I am not talking about trans-sexuals or persons who are missing any key body parts here) nor am I assuming that 'left handed persons' cannot use their right hand to do things like cut paper with scissors (again, I'm not talking about persons who are missing body parts]

So if LEFT HANDEDNESS is a choice, and HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice, why would any human being (besides an insane individual) CHOOSE to be outcast and spit upon and stared at and denied rights and get ink all over their hands (i.e. in most 'western countries', where writing is typically accomplished by forming letters etc. from left to right, and left handed persons get their hands 'smeared' by ink etc.) or be ostracised as 'sinister' (Latin: 'left handed') or evil, or Toq'ebah ('a cultic ritual abomination against YHWH') or stared at by children, or s'n-word'ed at in public or not being able to use 'normal' scissors without going through the most outrageous contortions of hands and fingers?

So...basically....is LEFT HANDED ness a CHOICE or not, and if so, WHY WOULD ANY ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND (no pun intended) INTENTIONALLY 'CHOOSE to go against nature'?

Originally posted by Sigismundus
I wonder how many persons on this threadlet believe LEFT HANDEDness is a CHOICE as well?

After all, according to the studies, there are approx 9% of the human population on average on this tiny insignificant little planet that consider themselves primarily LEFT HANDED and 9% of the human population on average consider themselves to be primarily HOMOSEXUAL.

[Not that homosexuals cannot have 'heterosexual sex' i.e. mechanically going through heter-sexual motions (and I am not talking about trans-sexuals or persons who are missing any key body parts here) nor am I assuming that 'left handed persons' cannot use their right hand to do things like cut paper with scissors (again, I'm not talking about persons who are missing body parts]

So if LEFT HANDEDNESS is a choice, and HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice, why would any human being (besides an insane individual) CHOOSE to be outcast and spit upon and stared at and denied rights and get ink all over their hands (i.e. in most 'western countries', where writing is typically accomplished by forming letters etc. from left to right, and left handed persons get their hands 'smeared' by ink etc.) or be ostracised as 'sinister' (Latin: 'left handed') or evil, or Toq'ebah ('a cultic ritual abomination against YHWH') or stared at by children, or s'n-word'ed at in public or not being able to use 'normal' scissors without going through the most outrageous contortions of hands and fingers?

So...basically....is LEFT HANDED ness a CHOICE or not, and if so, WHY WOULD ANY ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND (no pun intended) INTENTIONALLY 'CHOOSE to go against nature'?

Another point to take into account are the gay people that are living in anti gay countries. Just like africa were gays are often murdered. So, we are to believe that these people chose to be gay in a country where it is so dangous o be gay? How about the middle east, where gays are murdered. I guess they chose to be gay over there too.

But hey. The OP knows best because he has an insight into a gay persons mind

PLEASE! STOP THE IGNORANCE. Do you approach red-heads or albino's and ask them how they feel to be "mutants" with their less than superior (to yours) dna coding? NO!! Because they are human beings... LIKE MOST of us!! HOW do these posts even get started.. We should all respect and cherish one another.. despite "DNA"... maybe this should be posted in a EUGENICS category

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Concerning the Easter Bunny and sexuality, I did start a thread on this in the Below Top Secret Jokes and Pranks forum www.belowtopsecret.com...
The issue is not as trivial as it may at first seem, since pagan influences were far more open to gender and sexual fluidity, and the bunny comes from the dawn goddess Ishtar (Europe-Easter or Oestre, Ostara) worship. The Abrahamic faiths created the set gender binary and forbade any blurring, not only in sexuality, but also in gendered clothing and a ban on men with crushed testicles and eunuchs (although this seems to have varied between the chapters of the Bible - in Acts 8 an eunuch is baptized).
In any case, I don't want to derail the on-going fascinating discussion here, so please see the link on holiday mascots and gender.

reply to post by halfoldman

The issue is not as trivial as it may at first seem...

no - it's really not

thank you for the link - I'll definitely go there and see what's up

and, thank you...for taking what looked like just another throwaway line - and treating it seriously

good call :-)

In any case, I don't want to derail the on-going fascinating discussion here, so please see the link on holiday mascots and gender.

it is fascinating - isn't it? and, it's not really derailing I don't think

discussing gender (here in this thread, in particular) might contribute towards a greater understanding of gender preference

you can choose to believe in the Easter Bunny - or not

you can choose to put on the bunny suit - or not

but, your gender arrives with you from the beginning

many of us believe - or even know for certain - that our gender preference is also a given

but some among us believe that they can choose to be straight

fascinating

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Yeah, I do think that we are taking a lot for granted with the current Western system. In other cultures sexuality, or who you actually have sex with is not very significant. What seems to have been common in the pre-colonial world (or pre-Abrahamic faith world) are various notions of 3rd genders. So gender identity was far more crucial than sexual encounters.
The Native Americans had the "Berdarche", with varying labels amongst the tribes (berdarche is an old French word for "prostitute", which was a misreading of that role).
Here, gender was based on labor (because everyone needs to be productive), and if you showed certain proclivities as a boy that you made better baskets and were better at female tasks, you would be dressed as a female and become a "third" gender person.
Studies on some of the Zuni berdache showed that they prefered men as sexual partners (and they would sneak of to the berdache's hogan in the evenings). Yet the berdache also produced several children, which was not an issue in a very communal society.
In tribal Indonesia as many as 7 genders may exist. It is often believed that 3rd genders play a big ritual role, and that they balance the male and female energies in nature.
And indeed, the world became unbalanced. Balboa threw 40 transvestites to his dogs during the Mayan conquest, and cross-dressed children had to stand on desks to be ridiculed when they arrived at government boarding schools.

The western Abrahamic gender and sexual system is not nature-ordainened, or a given aspect of "normality'.
It was violently and pathologically imposed since Leviticus.




[edit on 7-4-2010 by halfoldman]

Hi Half Old Man -

Some very interesting stuff about the Berdarche's in North America is outlined in several books, including those important contributions of the great John Boswell who lists several examples of Amerindian apparent social-religious tolerance of the 'third gender' within their villages - although it seems clear that they had their own section, often divided off from the other village habitations, often by a stream of water.

All this pre-Christian tolerance of homosexuality in native AmerIndian Society is something not generally discussed in school classrooms, but should be at least exposed to high school students in basic anthropology 101 classes at least - one would think.

I myself live in San Francisco located on the Northern California coast where in the past more than 250 related 'Oholone' Tribelets resided -- for at least the past 20,000 years - and it appears the Roman Catholic missionaries (especially the Franciscans) in the 1770s and 1780s were quite shocked & horrified to find a whole nest of tule huts filled with men lying sexually with other males ('married to Ohlone warrior males for life') dressed up as Ohlone females - and perfoming much of the women's work (e.g. basket weaving and cooking etc.) all of whom were regarded in some way as 'witches' capable of the 'most powerful magick'.

Interestingly in the bible, the QODESHIM ('holy ones') were homosexual male priests who engaged in cross-dressing fertility rites during the Spring Festivals in the month of Nisan in pre-Exilic times (pre 587 BCE) , having 'passive; sexual intercourse with other males on the altar which later became To'qebah ('abominable to the clan-god YHWH'), and Solomon (Clan chief Jedediah son of David and bath-Shebiti) even built temples and housing for the QODESHIM near the Jerusalem temple of YHWH !

Later restrictions in the book of Leveticus in the supposedly ancient Torah put an end to this practice ('you will not squeeze sexually with a male as with a female : it is Toqebah ('cultically-ritually hateful to YHWH' like wearing cotton and linen together, or cutting off one's forelock or boiling goatmeat in its mother's milk etc.)

Back home in ancient times around the area that later became the cities of San Francisco, San Mateo and greater San Jose, California, when one of the warrior males of the Ohlone tribelets was asked to explain why he chose to 'lie sexually with another male' (i.e. ignoring the females) when there were so many young females of their tribes quite available down river to choose from - the warrior (who appeared as ordinary as any other Ohlone hunter in the village in terms of his masculinity) said that the '(=Berdarche) male-witch' had cast a love-spell on him when he had become of age, and that he was ordered by a 'spirit' to marry him, and was deathly afraid to leave him for even a few hours to seek a mate elsewhere...and that his power was exceedingly greater than the normal older wise-men and shamans of the village'.

The Franciscans were amused (and somewhat taken aback) when they saw the two of them violently fighting one morning- apparently the male-witch-Berdarche lover - i.e. one of the macho warrior types who normally would not take such abuse 'from a woman' was beaten up fairly badly one morning by his [transvestite-berdarche-sex-mate-wife] - and even threatened with a powerful curse - which frightened this very macho warrior more than his bruises ...apparently the male-warrior 'husband' member of the couple was waaay too afraid of his 'wife's magical power' ever to dare to hit him back !











[edit on 9-4-2010 by Sigismundus]

Originally posted by Darth Logan

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
homosexuality occurs naturally within the animal kingdom, do you think those animals choose to be gay? Thats all I have to say on the matter for now

Animals also rape each other and copulate with dead animals. This line of reasoning is unsustainable. If seemingly "homosexual" acts among animals are in accordance with animal nature, then parental killing of offspring and intra-species devouring are also in accordance.
Irrational animal behavior is not a yardstick to determine what is morally acceptable behavior for rational humans.
The animal kingdom is a whole different ball game, sorry to say.

Yes, animals are so beneath homoerectus. Afterall, millions of animals instictively knew to vacate the Tsunami that wiped out a couple hundred thousand superior intellect human beings.

Elephants can paint, indicating they have abstract thinking skills. We have no idea what is in the brains of our fellow animals. Humans are animals; as evidenced by our inept ability to get along with one another, fight violent wars, opress others, invent sky gods and impoverish others due to selfish greed.

What is this dead animal copulation thing your talking about? I've definitely heard of the superior humans doing that. Its called necrophelia.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
All I can do is recite the story of a friend who was raised from an early age to believe that homosexuality was immoral and a sin. As he grew up, he also discovered that he was gay.

Now he struggles daily with self-loathing and the belief that he will go to hell. Why? Because he truly believes that homosexuality is wrong, a form of evil, and a sin against his god, but cannot stop himself from feeling the same feelings, urges, and longings that heterosexual men feel for women, but for men instead.

He never chose to be gay. He tries daily not to be. He HATES himself and everything about who and what he is because of it.

So unless someone can prove to me that he's lying or suffering from some complex form of delusion, my only logical conclusion can be that homosexuality is not a choice for him.

Here are my questions, though: Why does anyone care whether homosexuality is or isn't a choice, and why does this man have to go through life hating who and what he is?

You should tell your friend that in Denmark we call the road markers "Priests" because they show the way but don't walk it themselves.

Or in other words. There is only the sin of treating people badly. Everything else is made up to fit someones agenda.

Originally posted by Sigismundus

The Franciscans were amused (and somewhat taken aback) when they saw the two of them violently fighting one morning- apparently the male-witch-Berdarche lover - i.e. one of the macho warrior types who normally would not take such abuse 'from a woman' was beaten up fairly badly one morning by his [transvestite-berdarche-sex-mate-wife] - and even threatened with a powerful curse - which frightened this very macho warrior more than his bruises ...apparently the male-warrior 'husband' member of the couple was waaay too afraid of his 'wife's magical power' ever to dare to hit him back !

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Sigismundus]

This reminds me of going out to the club in the early 90's and witnessing a drag queen by the name of Kitty Frances retrieve her gun from the purse and pistol whipped her boyfriend in the parking lot for cheating on her with the club owner.




[edit on 9/4/10 by toochaos4u]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Jezus
I can’t even imagine trying to be homosexual…my attraction to woman is definitely not a choice…

I can't imagine robbing a bank so I chose not to.

Are you saying that those who practice incest have no choice?
Since you are referring to duality here, if you couldn't even imagine raping a sister for example, does that mean that those who do do that have no choice?

I think you're getting actions and feelings mixed up here. Robbing a bank and finding someone of the same sex sexually attractive are two totally different things.
Feeling you want to do something and actually doing it are two totally different things.
Take incest as an example. There are more people in the world who get sexually turned on by their brothers or sisters, not because they choose to, but because they just do. Most of those people would never imagine acting on those feelings though.
It's acting on the feelings which is the choice, not having the feelings in the first place, there is no choice in that.

The point is whether it is or is not a choice, it's none of your or anybody else's business. Can't this society just live and let live? God! I can't believe we're a decade into the twenty-first century and we're still debating about this issue. Grow up people!

reply to post by HolgerTheDane


Myself and others have tried telling him that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, but he doesn't (can't) listen. He is utterly convinced that he is an abomination and a sinner just by being who and what he is.

My point being: tell people like him that homosexuality is a choice.

Some people will argue that even if homosexuality isn't a choice, then engaging in homosexual "acts" is a choice. Well, so are heterosexual "acts." Are they wrong? Then people might argue that heterosexual intercourse isn't an "aberration" because it has the potential to result in reproduction. Well, what about infertile couples? Are they "sinners?" The only argument left is, "It's wrong because it's wrong." That isn't a sufficient reason to condemn people in my opinion.

The longer this thread goes on and on, and the more comments by actual homosexuals are ignored ( cuz you know ..straight people know more about how a homosexual mindset works than actual homosexuals) the more I feel like I have been part of a masterpiece expert trolling.

Well played sir/madam. Fool me seven times, shame on you, fool me eight or more times, shame on me.


Itachi-

The homosexuality phenomenon is present because nature and the true meaning of love aren't understood. 

Hi D1ss1dent -

Are you saying that Michelangelo Buonarotti and the great Leonardo da Vinci (both male homosexuals, and no, Michelangelo's handwritten (and later deliberatley mis-printed) homosexual love sonnets were written to boys, not women if you take a close look at the autographs) did not know the meaning of love?

Maybe you need to study the Mona Lisa (or what's left of her to-day) or take a very close look at the David or even the Sistine Chapel.

Or maybe (shock and awe !!) take a beginners Arts class so you'll know what you're looking at?

reply to post by Sigismundus

What I'm saying is that whoever they are and whatever talent they acquired, homosexuals don't understand nature and the true meaning of love.

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Michelangelo's handwritten (and later deliberatley mis-printed) homosexual love sonnets were written to boys, not women if you take a close look at the autographs) did not know the meaning of love?

Pedophiles can't even get lust and DEPRAVITY right!
Much less LOVE!

Originally posted by Phlynx
Before anything more is posted, let me ask this. Is heterosexuality a choice? Is bisexuality a choice?

So well said with such few words. Awesome response.

I was thinking of a way to reply to this in the same manner. I was going to use something like do you choose to like apples or hate liver or anything else in this world, or is there some other reason behind why you like what you like or do what you do in life.

Some things are culturaly driven and some are driven by experience. I would think that it would be better to argue that homosexuality may either be in the DNA or as a result of some sort of enviromental or child development factor. Say something happens early on in childhood that shapes the development of their sexuality later on in life or maybe even triggers that genetic disposition, rather than to say its a chocie. I know some do choose to be gay and live that lifestyle. I personally know 2 people like this. They have been on both sides of the fence many times but at heart this makes them bisexual. If they choose to live a gay lifestyle and finally end up with a same sex partner then thats their chioice because they had one to begin with being bisexual.

However homesexuals are like heterosexuals in one regards. They do not shift their preference in sexual partners. they stay with one sex and that one sex only. So again kudos to this persons reply it seems like the best response.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by fizzy1]