Homosexuality is a choice and nothing else!

Some people are using the arguement that gay people obviously have no choice because they hide their sexual orientation from people. Please be more specific as to how that proves it. When kids steal cookies from the cookie jar they hide that from their parents too. Does that mean they're genetically predisposed to stealing cookies?


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reply to post by mefrosty

Jean, pls, scroll up, and see m post

Which one? I saw several of your posts referring people to your other posts or your thread.
I couldn't see any connection to the point I made in my own post.
Please explain.

I didn't read the whole thread, so I might be repeating someone...

I have a couple of points:

1) If I remember correctly, by controlling the hormone levels of a hen, researchers caused the hen (female) to display rooster (male) behaviors, such as humping other hens as if to mount them sexually. When the hormone levels were reverted back, the hen displayed female sexual behavior again.

2) In one of my developmental psychology classes I was taught that every human begins developing as a female.

If the embryo/fetus is to develop in to a male, there are several hormones that are introduced in to the womb at different periods. Abundances or absences of these hormones can lead to transgendered people.

There are people who are genetically male but have female genitalia. There is no hermaphrodite gene, but that certainly does not make transgenderism a choice.

This leads me to think hormone levels have a much stronger effect on people's sexual preferences than genetic predisposition. The two are certainly related though.

Originally posted by jsmappy
OK, this reminds me of the time I was in a Marriage counseling and I said "she makes me feel...." and the Therapist said "Whoa!!! You are your own person. It is impossible for someone to MAKE YOU FEEL anything. Own your own thoughts and actions!"
And he was exactly right. Any thought or action we take we take by our own free will. Nobody makes us get naked with other people, male , female, adults, children (Priests) - own your thoughts and actions and quit saying I did this or thought that because of (enter excuse here)!!!
We are completely responsible for if we are Gay , straight, Bi or whatever. If I get hit on by a guy or a girl, in either situation it is my choice to react to it or not to.
The bottom line is don't have Gay Pride parades if your so ashamed of your actions that you have to run around saying " I had no choice in the matter". Most people couldn't care less, but you have a choice, Either be Proud or play the blame game.

I take psychology and I think you severely misunderstood what the counsellor was saying. Nobody can make you 'feel' a certain way is a statement used to get people to own up to their own emotional states and not to blame it on other people. So if I say something like " Did you remember to pay the bill" and you get annoyed -It was your judgement and your emotions and state of mind that brought you to that anger, any other day you may not care I said it- so it was you're state of mind, not my own.

This can't be compared to homosexuality. Homosexuality also is not a fleeting emotion. It would be more like telling someone not to (insert personality trait here). Personality being seperate from emotion- though attraction is seperate as well.

Gay people do not blame anyone or say " you made me feel homosexual"

That is not what the counsellor was getting at.


Psychology also teaches you certainly can't tell someone to 'feel' a certain way either. So I can't tell you "Don't be angry that I asked that" but I can certainly say " Don't punch the wall in anger, go for a walk". You can't take away emotions so easily or else grief would be a lot easier to get through wouldnt it? So you can't tell people to not be homosexual, you can try telling them not to act on it, but if they are consenting adults, what is it to you?



Do you realize that gay pride parades are because they used to be killed and murdered for being gay? They aren't ashamed of themselves, they fear other people's actions-hate crimes.



[edit on 26-3-2010 by Zerra]

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Zerra]

reply to post by Zorah


Agreed Zorah.

It's like paintings or music. There's alot of people who are not Musicians or Painters who have an idea about these crafts but they can't get into depths of it like a painter or musician can.
How can a person who has never painted, really have much say in the process? Isn't it a little amusing when a non-painter tries to tell a painter about painting and then argues the painter's knowledge about painting to the painter? Hehe.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


You do not have a clue!
You just wanted to start a controversial thread for attention.
Get some gay friends, then maybe your life will brighten up!

reply to post by the.lights

In the same way that you 'know' you are straight, I 'know' I am gay. Every gay person I've spoken to on this is unanimous in their response - choice just DOES NOT come into it. It is bound up in the very nature of who we are.
I find it incredible, in 2010, we still have people who refuse to believe, or deny, that homosexuality exists. I think this says more about them.

Exactly. It boggles my mind to see heterosexuals making up theories about what 'turns' someone gay, all the way to pseudo-Freudian psychobabble while dismissing the first-hand experience of homosexuals themselves.
Here's the story of a gay friend of mine:
He grew up, in what was then a small town, in a venomously homophobic household. Because of this, and the prevalent attitude in the community, he stayed in the closet until, as a late teen, he couldn't take it anymore and slit his own throat. Fortunately, he changed his mind about bleeding to death in his family's front room and managed to get medical assistance in time.
He decided to leave his hometown and finally came out in the safety of a bigger city. He went back to college as a mature student, got an honours degree and moved to Australia.
He's living his life, he's happy and he's loved.
As for his family? It's their loss.

Originally posted by indianajoe77
reply to post by TELEX

 

Legally a minority.

In the US we have something called Minority Status, which when the state/local/federal government has contracts to give to public for services/products a few are set aside for minority contractors, i.e. those groups with minority status.

Unaware, apologies, that's nuts how can a group with a minority status be expected to do the majority of washing up ?

reply to post by Zerra

Great points. Especially writing from Africa the issue of arranged marriages, the Biblical injuctions against divorce and the man's right to polygamy are all very important. Western society only abandoned some of these issues recently, and they all serve male dominated patriarchy. Now the whole hoo-ha about homosexuality is that it weakens "traditional" heterosexuality, and it will lead to a social decline towards "beastially" (see some of the homophobic religious sites, no jokes). The current understanding of heterosexuality is hardly traditional however, and it's mostly a recent construct. Regarding homosexuality as choice is also then the reason some want it banned, but once the radical right interferes in adult freedom, then what will it restrict next? Will we return to the days where a divorced woman is stigmatized as an "adulterer"? Will the church and state control sexual positions and days on which sex is OK? So I think gay rights are a crucial boundary for freedom of all adult choice.

I might not think it is a choice: but fine, give me the right to CHOOSE to be gay. That's good enough for me.
Also give women the right to CHOOSE when and how much they want to reproduce, and give both sexes the right to CHOOSE to legally entrench or end relationships without stigma.

Also give people the right to selectively CHOOSE homosexuality as their topic around sexuality. Why they CHOOSE that is their own business.

Nobody remebers being born, and although I feel I was born gay that determinist argument only gives people rights to be gay. It does not offer arguments for equality in society. So sure, I'll make everyone happy and say I CHOSE to be gay. In that sense we then have the same rights to make choices as all adult citizens in society.

But please, do consider more rights for people who have NO CHOICE. Men in prison who will one day rejoin society and are raped and violated with no access to condoms!

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Zerra

 

Great points. Especially writing from Africa the issue of arranged marriages, the Biblical injuctions against divorce and the man's right to polygamy are all very important. Western society only abandoned some of these issues recently, and they all serve male dominated patriarchy. Now the whole hoo-ha about homosexuality is that it weakens "traditional" heterosexuality, and it will lead to a social decline towards "beastially" (see some of the homophobic religious sites, no jokes). The current understanding of heterosexuality is hardly traditional however, and it's mostly a recent construct. Regarding homosexuality as choice is also then the reason some want it banned, but once the radical right interferes in adult freedom, then what will it restrict next? Will we return to the days where a divorced woman is stigmatized as an "adulterer"? Will the church and state control sexual positions and days on which sex is OK? So I think gay rights are a crucial boundary for freedom of all adult choice.

I might not think it is a choice: but fine, give me the right to CHOOSE to be gay. That's good enough for me.
Also give women the right to CHOOSE when and how much they want to reproduce, and give both sexes the right to CHOOSE to legally entrench or end relationships without stigma.

Also give people the right to selectively CHOOSE homosexuality as their topic around sexuality. Why they CHOOSE that is their own business.

Nobody remebers being born, and although I feel I was born gay that determinist argument only gives people rights to be gay. It does not offer arguments for equality in society. So sure, I'll make everyone happy and say I CHOSE to be gay. In that sense we then have the same rights to make choices as all adult citizens in society.

But please, do consider more rights for people who have NO CHOICE. Men in prison who will one day rejoin society and are raped and violated with no access to condoms!

oh yes, I apologize I deleted that part of my post incase it was too long. But for others it merely said that if we tell people to only choose to be in straight relationships than we are saying that homosexuals can never be in love or feel attraction for their partner, it would be like saying you are for arranged marriage. Hope I quoted myself right

Originally posted by cindymars
You do not have a clue!
You just wanted to start a controversial thread for attention.
Get some gay friends, then maybe your life will brighten up!

It's against my better judgement to respond to such a post but i'll bite just for a sec

So this topic can never be brought up...... EVER?

And if someone ever does then... it's only for attention.... forever?

If so why is that?
What's wrong with this discussion

Seems like some people really fear such a discussion for I don't know what reason. If you have accepted who you are then why fear such a discussion? What's the big deal?

If homosexuals want to integrate into society like everyone else is then why fear such discussions?
I see rallies with signs like "we are queer and we are here", they don't mind shoving their sexuality into your face but start a topic like this and everyone is saying you do it for attention.

I wonder if the same people in gay rallies exposing their sexuality to everyone, even shoving it in everyone's face also would say I made this thread for attention. That would be beyond laughable!

reply to post by nomorecruelty

Ok, I'm affected negatively by homosexuals.

Please explain, in detail, how you are negatively affected by homosexuals.
As you chose the term 'homosexuals' rather than 'homosexuality', I'd like you to explain how two consenting adults of the same gender, feeling attraction for one another, affect you in any way.
I have asked this question many times and never got an answer.
Maybe you'll be the one?

reply to post by nomorecruelty

Reading further down the thread, I see you have answered the same question from another poster. I also read another post of yours where you reveal some of your background.
Even though I completely disagree with your viewpoint, I give you kudos for honesty. Peace.



[edit on 27-3-2010 by jeanvaljean]

This proves that you are no more advanced than clubbing each other over the head for the best hunk of freshly killed dinosaur. You may have made some advances in technology that creates certain comforts, but somehow you can't get past the reality that people are gay.

By the way, I'm just visting this planet for a short time so good luck with all of this..

As a transgender myself, I find everyones points of view very interesting even those that don't agree.
Like my Gay, Lesbien, Bi, Aesexual, Etc. friends, I've gotten the whole 'why can't you just accept' or ' why can't you not be that' type of conversations. We know it's not that simple. Those who don't, live a hard life trying to fit in and are often confused because they live in a culture that does not accept them and offers up all manner of remedies that no matter how hard they try, don't seem to work. Many try to be like others and try to convince themselves they have finally conquered this 'condition' but in truth they have not and are living a lie and a lie that can hurt others when the sh*t hits the fan and the house of cards comes falling down.
From my own personal experiences, gender and sexual identity is not as simple as people make it out to be. Not as neat and perdy, black and white. Not so ideal as we would like it to be. With someone who is born with both sex organs, you can visible see this. Hence why you don't see people getting all worked up about these individuals.
You can't see in a so visible manner peoples gender identity and sexual identity. The body one is born with dosn't seem to determin necessarily gender and sexual identity and it would seem science is beginning to agree. Maybe The One/Beloved/God intended there to be variety here and that everyone holds a vital role and place in life which is not determined solely on reproduction and what not. Afterall, there are posters here who have said you can't rely solely on what the animal kingdom does. It seems self-evident that we are not just mere mechanisms and plus, having folks like us around isn't going to endanger the survival of the species any time soon and we've been around a long long time.
There has never been any doubt about my transgender nature. I have known since I could remember, even before I understood, that I felt that I was one gender yet physically I displayed another gender and there has never been anything that could change that but I accept myself and don't see why I should change myself and I can't anyways regardless of what others say. I know myself.
I come from a culture that traditionally recognizes me as a Third Gender or Two Spirit that like any other person, has a role in society both spiritual and mundane and should be respected. Now this is not always held as so because the dominant culture has infiltrated my own culture so I have met with persecution both within my own culture and in the dominant culture. It feels sucky. In the past when I was younger, I wanted to die. Not because I thought I was an abomination or was guilty or sickened by myself but because of the way I felt because I didn't fit in and the reception I recieved from others. I also felt this way because it is hard at times to be physically one thing yet feel as another so one is not always comfortable but I imagin non-transgendered individuals have similar feelings on other things as well.
When a person like me seeks to be recognized with equalty, it is not to impose myself onto others but to have the same rights, privilages and oppertunities as others. I want to be recognized not merely as a second class citizen. I'm not going to go into a place that dissagrees with my gender and sexual identity, I have my own places I can go where I am accepted and so my places shoudln't be imposed upon as well. But where we all must congregate together, one is not being asked to accept against their beliefs but to tolorate because that is what is civil and right so that all may benefit.
That's just my two cents.
Edit: i'd like to thank the OP for raising this thread and while there are many like threads, I think this is an issue that needs to be descussed in depth. And though these can get heated, it's nice to see posters interested in being civil and engaging in dialoge. Not just talking at people.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Arles Morningside]

Wow. 17 pages already. Ahem. So here's my take on it.

I believe, with every myofiber of my heart, that everyone is born bisexual. That is the natural state of just about every other animal on the planet, so why not humans? The difference is that animals don't have their parents, their teachers, their preachers, their mass media, and their peers (by whom they want to be accepted) telling them that they have to be straight or be ostracized.

This influencing of our base natures occurs in childhood, when we're most impressionable. Some kids are willing to accept this alteration in their sexuality in order to be accepted, to be part of the pack, because they don't yet understand what sex even is; those people have effectively chosen to change into straight people. Some kids rebel, saying "You don't own me! I'll do what I want!" and those choose to change into homosexuals. And then there are those who choose not to change because of some inner strength, some instinctive resistance to this societal pressure, as if they just know somehow that letting others tell them how to be/act/think/etc is just plain wrong, and they realize this so early in life that the other pressures don't have a chance of turning them into someone they're not. Those we call "bisexuals."

There's nothing inherently "wrong" with any sexual orientation. What is wrong is the wholesale belittling and shunning that non-heteros have to put up with. Every time a child is thrown out of his home for being gay, it's the parents' fault. Every gay bashing is the fault of the basher(s). If everyone could just love and respect everyone else, there'd be no problems at all in the world. But everyone's so full of themselves, so eager to protect their own beliefs and opinions, that they couldn't care less about other people. Sometimes, straight people can even sense the same-gender-desiring part of themselves they squashed in their youth, still hanging around and making them have tiny flashes of arousal towards someone attractive; after that, they have to go beat up some obviously-gay easy target to make themselves feel better, or convince their friends how Truly Macho they are.

And society's to blame. Let's bash it!!

reply to post by ModernAcademia


You know I have gay friends that I love and I find it offensive.
You are entitled and have a right to discuss whatever you like.
I still think that you started the thread for attention.
I could be wrong.
Carry on.

If it's not a choice and it's not genetic, what other options are there?

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by cindymars
You do not have a clue!
You just wanted to start a controversial thread for attention.
Get some gay friends, then maybe your life will brighten up!

It's against my better judgement to respond to such a post but i'll bite just for a sec

So this topic can never be brought up...... EVER?

And if someone ever does then... it's only for attention.... forever?

If so why is that?
What's wrong with this discussion

Seems like some people really fear such a discussion for I don't know what reason. If you have accepted who you are then why fear such a discussion? What's the big deal?

If homosexuals want to integrate into society like everyone else is then why fear such discussions?
I see rallies with signs like "we are queer and we are here", they don't mind shoving their sexuality into your face but start a topic like this and everyone is saying you do it for attention.

I wonder if the same people in gay rallies exposing their sexuality to everyone, even shoving it in everyone's face also would say I made this thread for attention. That would be beyond laughable!

I've been reading this thread. I mean no disrespect, I don't post on this site that much, but this thread is bothersome.
Why do you concern yourself with this?
This is another one of those things which divides people.
Rediculous.

"oh, why don't people ever talk about how homosexuality is a choice?"

That's kinda of like saying "why don't people ever talk about how the Earth is flat?"
(I just used that as an example people don't freak out)

It's not that people are afraid to talk about it, but it's tiresome.

Most people have an understanding and realize that it is not a choice, or nobody would actually choose that way of life (especially in a society in which they are alienated or even killed), or that we don't have enough research on the topic to know definitvely. I must say I don't like how your title asserted a conclusion without evidence.
Go ahead and ask a question, but there's no need to exclaim how you'd like it to be...and then start asking all kinds of questions.

Do you think it's smart to try and conjure up some conspiracy relating to this or something? Like as if you're clever for seeing above all the rest of sociey's ignorance?
All these threads focusing on this issue of homsoexuality IMHO is useless and unimportant.
What does it really mean to you?

Also, nobody is shoving it in your face. It appears you're the one focusing your attention on it and letting it bother you, and then shoving it on ATS.

Is this a real legit question? I've seen so much trolling on this site lately I am not sure who's really wondering about something or who's just stirring things up for attention.
I get that this is a community and you can ask questions, but what ever happened to researching things for yourself?

[edit on 26-3-2010 by Before2017Victor]

reply to post by Zerra

No, your post was fine. From the last two pages since I joined the discussion I'm actually finding it very useful, so I may be prompted to thoughts beyond the original posts at times.
Because earliest memory certainly seems proof for many gay people that they are born that way, few consider the philosophical limitations of this. Alan Sinfield writes in "Gay and After" that at most this will give us the same rights as historically oppressed racial minorities, perhaps a ghetto, or a conceptual reservation. For some gays that dream of the Pet Shop Boys' take on "Go West" (to San Francisco?) is then also sufficient. But most of us have to negotiate living in overwhelmingly straight society.
South Africa has very liberal laws these days (based on our 1994 constitution), and even same-sex marriage is legal. However, in many communities outside urban centres that means nothing. Lesbians are still stabbed and raped (especially in what is termed "curative" rape - the belief by some men that raping a lesbian will make her straight), and gays are often beaten and remain outcasts.

In academia we have the social constructionist vs the essentialist debate. It's pretty similar to the nature vs nurture, or instinct vs choice debate. But ultimately did being born female give women equal rights, or being born black or Native American? Will a gay gene give gays rights, rather than saying that all sexuality is constructed along the lines of gender constructs? Not all same-sex attraction or acts are even performed by the gay minority. So I'd rather argue that adult sexuality is fluid along a Kinsey scale, and that CHOICE is involved in both hetero and homosexuality, and those choices should be respected.

We already have a situation where same-sex flaunting is normal for (especially celebrity) women but not men, and where officialdom would rather turn a blind eye to sex in prisons. Ohmigod, we cannot admit that so many of OUR men do THAT, so we'd rather see HIV spread - and eventualy it spreads into wider society.

So from a neutral academic position CHOICE is fine. However, as long as religious groups keep preaching mythological "conversion therapies", and merely view gays as very sinful straight people who can be changed with dated, bogus therapies then gay people will react strongly against the terminology. Then we also have religious terms like "lifestyle choice", which assumes that all gays live drugged, promiscuous and short lives in discoes! So all that prejudiced stereotyping is why gay people object to terms like CHOICE. It's like we are assigned a "choice" of a lifestyle many of us don't lead (and many heteros do) and I know gay long-term couples who lead banal suburban lives. But such gay banality is not what the radical right means when they talk of "Gay Choice". They mean post-sexual revolution, pre-Aids party animals from Fire Island in the 1970s! This is then also where they get most of their staistics on gay "behaviour" and deaths. In fact, quiet, suburban gay people don't show in many statistics.
So let us first define what is meant by gay CHOICE, and whether this an imposed stereotype.

OK, let me define and impose heterosexual CHOICE (from a male perspective): A poor kid fumbles on prom night, if he goes too fast it's rape, if he goes too slow it's a lack of attraction or impotence. He knocks up some broad and is forced to marry her. He begins working a dead-end blue-collar job where his health and life is at risk every day. The wife turns into an unattractive scold. He goes out some nights and visits brothels for his kicks, or he turns to internet and porn. His future either includes divorce, death or a pension if the job holds. Great CHOICE!

reply to post by FortAnthem


I think the gay gene is passed from aunt/uncle to niece/nephew. I base this on my own experience. I have an aunt who is in a hetero marriage, but her mannerisms and the way she carries herself scream lesbian. Yes, I am lesbian. I have also seen effeminate mannerisms from my nephew.

I have witnessed this in other families as well via my last two partners. They both had gay uncles. It's just a thought.