Revelation 18 May Happen In Fall 2010

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
As to dates...stay away from that trap friend, even the Lamb doesn't know..only God.

Yes, and isn't it strange how the calculated date is always ten years ahead of the person making the calculation? I can hardly disagree with you there.

I've never really believed that Revelations is about the future or our times as looked at from antiquity.

Revelations IMO is about the defeat of Judea by Rome and the fall of the 2nd temple in AD70. Which solidified Romes authority and led to the rise of Christianity. When Judea was defeated by Rome in AD70 that was the end of Jewish domination of the region, from that point in time until 1948, there was no Israel/Judea

The whore and such references are directed at Rome/Christianity, I think what John is referring to is the downfall of both.

IMO, Revelations does not refer to modern times, it was meant as a salve to the defeated and displaced Hebrews and held out a promise for the destruction of Rome and it's false church and a reuniting of the Jewish people.

Originally posted by deadbang


The whore and such references are directed at Rome/Christianity, I think what John is referring to is the downfall of both.

IMO, Revelations does not refer to modern times, it was meant as a salve to the defeated and displaced Hebrews and held out a promise for the destruction of Rome and it's false church and a reuniting of the Jewish people.

Then why would Revelation be filled with Christian imagery. such as the "slain Lamb" (ch5v6)? Why would the martys be beheaded because of their "testimony to Jesus" and why would they then be "reigning with Christ" (ch20 v4)? It was certainly meant as a book for Christians.

I grant you that it was meant, in the first instance, as encouragement for the people of the time. But surely the Christian people.

The so-called 4 Horsemen section (or 'Peri-cope') of the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) of course is actually not made up from whole cloth, but is a Rabinnic 'Midrashic expansion' of an earlier Apocalyptic text (as with every single line of the book) in the case the Aramaic Targum of the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Zechariah chapter 6 verses 1-11

If you read the Scroll of the Book o the Prophet Zechariah chapters 1-8 (protoZechariah) VERY carefully and also the material contained in the later writer of Zechariah chapters 9-14 (sometimes called Deutero-Zechariah i.e. 2nd Zechariah) you will see many passages that are the basis for the expansions in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Reveleation), as well as other OT and pseudipigarphical Hebrew texts, most of the material taken from the Aramaic Targum material of the paleoHebrew versions and brought into very clumsy (and impossibly grammatical) mid-1st century Koine Greek :

Aramaic Targum of Zechariah 6:1-11

And I turned, and lifted up my eyes & behold, I saw:
Lo, Coming out from between two Mountains,
And behold: the Mountains were as Mountains of Brass !
I saw: there were coming towards me, Four Chariots !
And lo, in the 1st Chariot there was a Red Horse;
and in the 2nd Chariot there was a Black horse

And lo, in the 3rd Chariot, behold, there came a White Horse;
And I turned and saw a 4th Chariot which lagged behind the rest,
and I looked, and behold, it was being led by a Grisled Horse !
Then I turned to the Angel near me and said to him:
What do these 4 Horses signiffy, my lord?
And the Angel spoke to me, saying:

Son of Man, these are the 4 Winds of Heaven
even they which go forth from standing before the face(s) of YHWH
and from there they proceed to the 4 Corners of the Earth.
For behold, see how the Black Horse proceeds to the North Countries
and lo, how the White Horse follows him !
And behold, the Red Horse likewise follows behind the White Horse !

And I looked, and behold I saw: the Grisled Horse sped to the South
Then lo, they all ere set to depart from their former places,
in order that they all leave to walk to and fro upon the earth !
And he commanded them, saying,
"Go, Get you up, so that you might march to & fro on the the earth !"
And lo, they all began to traverse to & fro through upon the earth.

Then the angel cried to me in a loud voice, saying,
Behold, these that go toward the north country
even these have quieted my spirit in the north !
And the word YHWH came unto me...saying,
Take silver and gold,
that you might make crowns from them

And set them upon the head of Joshua
Even the son of Yosedech,
who is the High Priest of YHWH !
And say to him: "Thus says YHWH the clan god of Armies:
Behold the Man !
Even he whose name is haNAZIR (=the BRANCH)

Lo, he shall grow up away from his place of birth
in order to re-build the temple of YHWH
Yea, even he shall be the one who shall rebuild YHWH's Temple !"
And he shall bear the Glory & sit to rule upon his throne;
And there also shall be a priest next to him sitting,
For lo, the Counsel of Peace will exist between them both.



Notice the echo in Zech 6:9 with the 4th canonical Greek Gospel ('accoding to John' whoever he was) BEHOLD THE MAN ! WHO SHALL BE CALLED THE NAZIR ('the branch of David'), which explains the origin of the term NAZIRITE, which has nothing to do at all with the later fictitioius placement of Nazareth in Galilee which did not even exist at that time (only a Lake Genesseret can be found on maps from the 1st century) - this suggests the gospel writers inherited a CODE they did not understand - NAZIR means 'branch of David' i.e. King, and it was considered seditionist to use such terms apart from 'the divine' Caesars, so it was turned into a place name and buried in the canonical Gospels to hide the political overtones to the earliest strands of the oral galilean Aramaic material surrounding the Daviddic pretender R. Yehoshua bar Yosef, one of whose original titles was haNazir - a title which eventually found its way on the TITULUS (placard of crimes) above his head when he was executed by crucifixion for armed sedition against the state in 36 CE during the 100th anniversary of the invasion of the Roman Army by Pompey in 63 BCE.

But a modern reader of the text today CANNOT UNDERSTAND a single line of the 12-line poetry underneath all the Greek of the Apocalypse of Yohananon the Levite (Aka Book of Revelation) without DIRECT access to the Aramaic Targum paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures from which the text of the Book of Revelation was ultimately derived, and carefgully midrashically expanded, in Rabinnic fashion, by the compilers of all the impossibly bad Greek we read in the mangled text copies that survive today ('full of Grammatical Howlers in the Greek' to quote C.K. Barrett) whose compilers were in the middle of trying to survive the un-winnable Jewish War against Rome --and who were originally were trying to make some kind of 'Apocalyptic sense' out of the impending destruction of Judaea by the Roman Army during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (AD 66-72) when the book was re-edited and cobbled together from a hotch potch of earlier Hebrew & Aramaic Apocalyptic scraps (e.g. Daniel, or the Tamid Psalms of the Temple, or Proto & Trito Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and Hezekiel & other earlier 'apocalyptic' related material from the Macabbean period and even earlier (e.g. from the times of the first invasion of Assyria, then Babylon, then Persia, then Egypt, then Greece and finally Rome who eventually ground Israel to powder in AD 70, killing over 900,000 Palestinian Jews, Sammaratins and Galileans.

reply to post by DISRAELI

IMO, Because John and Jesus were contemporaries and the Jewish people without a state were under the subjugation of Rome. This was a book written to give hope to a people who had none.

Add to that the fact that all the books of the bible have been reinterpreted many times throughout history by powerful men who had definite agendas.

Christianity at the time was more a political movement than a religion.

Jesus never once said he was a Christian nor were his intentions to found a religion, that was Paul's work, who was without a doubt a master politician.

I could be wrong, like I said, just my opinion.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
As to dates...stay away from that trap friend, even the Lamb doesn't know..only God.

In my studies, I suggest that the Mother of harlots is the Catholic Church from which all other Christian denominations came from...the harlots being the organized denominational churches....Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, Presbyterian...etc.

We are warned to come out of the organized churches so we will not suffer from her whoredoms and subsequent punishment....ironic that the Catholic Church is headquartered in Rome...which sits on seven hills.

The harlot symbolically rides the beast...with 10 crowns on seven heads.... the rivived European Union will support and be supported by the revised Catholic Church... you can even see this symbol of Europa riding Zeus in front of the EU Parlimant Bldg in Strasbourg,Fr. ... a literal interpretation of prophesy.

Further, the EU Parlimant Bldg is based on a 16th century painting of the Tower of Babel or Babylon...again, literal symbolism come to pass.

I know this is one of, if not the most widely held view of these verses, however, I believe it matches much more closely to the modern-day axis powers if you will of the seat of power in Jerusalem and Israel and its satellite states like the US and the UK.

Rome does not fit nearly as well.

when the romans and jews killed jesus christ, they took his message and modified it to suit their own agenda. then they spread it...

i wouldn't try to debunk the bible, its filled with lies... it holds very little in regards to the truth of jesus...

Originally posted by FateAtkinson
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Do you even know what the four horsemen are?Conquest, War, Death and Famine...

"Do I even know?"
I noticed you were back on the forums after a time of absence. You may like to consider whether the attached link is a sufficient answer to your question;

What the Four Horsemen are

Incidentally, you got it wrong about the first one.

[edit on 30-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by Red Cloak


I beleive that Alreadygone is correct in their interpretation of the verses, and the city referred to is the Vatican City which is situated in Rome.
The Roman Catholic Church will guide and direct the revived Holy Roman Empire (the German led EU) which is coming together very quickly now.
With the U.N. only yesterday calling for the replacment of the US dollar as the money standard with another currency more stable. If this were to happen, (and it soon will) America will drown in debt virtually overnight. The EU would move very quickly to fill the economic and power vacuum.

Pope Benedict XVI is calling for Europe to come together and return to their spiritual roots (Roman Catholism) to avoid becoming Islamisied.
This United States of Europe is the Beast of Revelation and the woman riding the beast is the RCC.
Posters who state that Revelation is about the fall of the Roman Empire are correct, but it is the coming Roman Empire it is referring to, not the Empires already gone.

As for a time scale, that is impossible to pin down, suffice to say that the EU needs yet to organise itself. A new strong leader needs to arise in Germany. America is yet to be taken out of the way with economic and natural disasters. So a few dominoes to fall yet, but time is getting very short.

Babylon is simply a metaphor for the Religious, political and economic systems of the world. It is believed the book of revelations was written around 96AD and in Revelations Ch 1 v 1 John wrights how its about things which are shortly to come. As it is about things shortly to come after 96AD a lot of it is about the fall of the Roman Empire. For example considering the four horseman of the apocalypse the horseman with the weights and balances is a reference to the economic turmoil in Ancient Rome that was partly responsible for its collapse. The reference a measure of wheat for a penny (or silver denarius in the greek) simply means that all a silver denarius would be able to buy you is four cups of wheat which is about sifficient to bake you a loaf of bread. From the gospels it is clear that a penny (or silver denarius) was worth about a days wages during the time of Jesus as in one of Jesus's parables he mentions that labourers were paid a silver denarius or penny for a days work. Obviously then what happened was great inflation in Rome shortly after 96 AD through the likes of nero increasing the money supply mixing less valuable metals such as nicle and copper with Gold and silver to fund for the Roman war machine throughout Europe. Prices of goods increased throughout the Roman empire much like the great inflation of the Wiemar republic in Germany in 1923. Ezekiel prophesises how gold and silver would become worthless and thrown on the streets and indeed if you google weimar republic you will litrally see a picture of worthless German dollars, due to the excessive printing of currency, thrown by the public on the street and a man sweeping them up. The 1 trillion dollar US bailout is a form of debasement of the currency which is why Gold is currently rising and the US Dollar is currently falling. Yes the economic system is collapsing before our eyes as prophesised in Revelations but I honestly don't think it will happen this fall howvever it will happen over time. As for the blood of the saints and the martyrs and christian persecution being yet to come, infact, it has probably already occurred with the ealrly christian chrch persecution by Nero and other Roman leaders and an even greater persecution by the church of Rome around the time of the reformation and after. Read fox's book of martyrs for further information about the christian persecution by the Roman Catholic church.
I am happy to post further information for anyone interested or contact those who would like to know more if you believe what I have written is relevant and makes a lot of sense. All the best and God bless Crocodiledundee.

Yes it is so that the scarlet woman in revelations is referring to the Roman catholic church and how the seven hills on which she sits is indeed Rome. I believe red cloak is wrong in saying that Revelations is mostly about a great new European empire controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. As per my previous post John specifically states that it is about things shortly to come that is shortly to come after the book was written being 96 AD. In Revelations where it refers to the beast which was wounded and then healed it is referreing to the imperial Roman empire and indeed it was healed becuse rising up from the ashes came the Holy Roman Empire with the popes boasting great things. I expect the soon return of the Lord. Just when I don't know but the signs are around us. It could be tomorrow, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 30 years or even 50 years.

Best we all make sure that our lamps are full and we are born again with signs following walking in the spririt of God praying in the holy ghost which I believe is referring to praying in tongues. The time is coming (i.e. after pentecost) and now is when the true worshippers shall worship God in Spirit and truth. Worshipping in Spririt that is praying in the Holy Ghost or as what happened on the day of Pentecost when the holy ghost was poured out in tongues.

reply to post by Red Cloak
Red Cloak,

You are not all wet in realizing the things brought out in these two chapters are relevant for now. Rev. 17:, I find to be an information chap. to unravel some other prophecies. The great harlot woman you see the beast carrying is the great apostate church that has gone whoring with another master. The beast in none other than the great red dragon, Satan. He carries her in that he is her leader, her master, she follows after him in what she teaches and does. This chap. is a great help to the prophecies of Rev. 13. In Johns day the five fallen where the religions proven false when Christ died on the cross and proved the one that is of Rev.17:10 was the True one. That one went into apostasy in around 300 yrs. or less and those who didn't come out of her prob. became the Papacy which martyred something like 6,000,000 up through the dark ages. And the one to come would be the system of Protestantism which rose up each with a point of reform from her. None however have taken on reform in all points and all instead of holding what they had and going on to reform after reform have regressed and now are part of the apostate system, protestantism continued a short space, no more than 500 yrs. and is now totally dead. There is no protestantism in any denomination. Verse 11 reveals Satan, he was appearant then in Johns day but then was seen no more because the church no longer revealed him and he will be the eighth as soon as he comes to view impersonating Christ come again. Going to verse 12 the horns are now crowned but weren't then In Johns day and this takes you to Rev. 13:1. These Crowns had been on the religious systems Rev chap 12:3 of which Satan will be the eigth and last head. The Kingly power was changed by Satan to the Horns when the sixth head was wounded to death and this was Satan's old world order, a new world order beginning with Rev. 13:1. No religious system has had Kingly power since and has to go to the secular as the Jews did to get their dirty work done when they crucified Christ. The ten horns of the beast are the ten dyanasties that rule the world today. They meet in a penthouse in Canada once a month to decide the destiny of this country and the world. The great whore there sits upon many people and has them held in deception. But the ten horns of the beast, Satan, hate the great whore, burn her with fire and eat her flesh. The 10 horns are to recieve power as kings one hour with the beast and recieve no kingdom. They sure got the kingly power now and it looks like they will be set up as so when Satan again comes among men as Christ. Looks like that time will be short, one hour, literal, I don't know. Rev. 17:8 is a very revealing verse and is soon to come to fruitition. These ten horns and Satan make war with the Lamb Rev. 17:14, will it last just one hr?

I may add a reply later on if I see that I can add any insite.

Don't be put down by all the sarcastic remarks, Christians must expect that and we must work on unravelling these prophecies and letting people know, it is our commision as soldiers in His Army.

Truthiron