The social issue no one in Australia wants to talk about

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Retrovertigo
I asked you to make it realistic...You didn't...

Epic fail on your part...

realistic? realistic for who? i bet that if you ask the aboriginals, they'll think it's quite a good idea. i mean, it's not as if people who the natives think will be a worthwhile part of society will have to lose anything, they'll stay, i'm sure. the aboriginals even have the choice to keep the status quo, if the present system is so suitable to their aims, there shouldn't be any worry.

all you're doing is allowing the native people a right to self determination in their own land. why is that unrealistic, exactly?

1) You have absolutely no idea of who indigenous Australians are, what they want, and how they think...

eh, yeah! that's why i said you should let them decide!! keep up.

You've either talked rubbish about something you know nothing about or you've come up with an idea that would not work in any modern country on the planet, for either indigenous or non-indigenous people...

the right to self determination in your native land seems to work quite well in most instances, there's been a few disasters in africa, admittedly, but overall, it's seen as a good way of creating stability and prosperity. .

I'll bet London to a brick if you ask Indigenous Australian leaders, they'd tell you the same thing as me...The reality is, a lot of indigenous Australians have no desire to live the way their forbears did...

The other thing is I've already said those indigenous Australians who wish to live a fully traditional lifestyle, or a variation thereof, should be encouraged and supported to do so...Selective reading of posts, eh ?

Giving a minority the right to decide what happens to a nation would be a complete disaster and is totally unreasonable...

I gather one of the African examples you're referring to might be South Africa ? If so, the indigenous population is the overwhelming majority of the society...If you have other examples, I'd like to hear them...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by JohnnyCanuckmore]
I never fell for the 'racism/racist' trend
Truth is good enough for me

That's good to hear. I'm assuming that you aren't lying to us, so I am asking you to cite your sources. Surely, you can do better than anecdotal evidence of sixty year-old 'facts'.

Not much but you may enjoy this..
news.google.com...,6185866

en.wikipedia.org...

It would seem America isnt the only one with racial problems...

www.groundreport.com...
news.google.com...,2514183
www.articlesbase.com...





[edit on 24-3-2010 by poedxsoldiervet]

Originally posted by Retrovertigo
I'll bet London to a brick if you ask Indigenous Australian leaders, they'd tell you the same thing as me...The reality is, a lot of indigenous Australians have no desire to live the way their forbears did...

which is why i said "set up a system of governance based on either the traditional governance methods of the indigenous population or another system chosen by the indigenous population."

where did i say "live the way their forbears did"?

The other thing is I've already said those indigenous Australians who wish to live a fully traditional lifestyle, or a variation thereof, should be encouraged and supported to do so...Selective reading of posts, eh ?

i did read that and i think it's a bit patronizing, especially the bit about helping them set up industries to sustain them but i didn't argue it as i thought it was well meaning and that i'ld have been picking at nits.

Giving a minority the right to decide what happens to a nation would be a complete disaster and is totally unreasonable...

it's a matter of re-establishing their identity, ownership of their native land and human dignity. it was taken from them and all the money and welfare in the world won't give it back, my solution will.

if "the majority" give them that, you'ld be surprised at how well it might be returned. maybe not, but if not, you have to wonder if it's an unfair reaction.

I gather one of the African examples you're referring to might be South Africa ? If so, the indigenous population is the overwhelming majority of the society...If you have other examples, I'd like to hear them...

i said there were exceptions in africa, i was referring to zimbabwe, the congo, somalia, lots of them in a total mess. horrifying. south africa isn't much better mind you, the whole continent is fairly messy, to be honest.

i know there really aren't examples where the majority handed back power to a minority, that doesn't mean they shouldn't.

reply to post by pieman


I guess given you think I've been patronising when I genuinely want to see indigenous people do really well in Australia however they wish to live, I'll leave it at that...I'm not going to continue to debate someone who accuses me of being disingenuous when I've been nothing but sincere...

But I will repeat...It just simply is not reasonable to hand control of a nation of over 22 million people to a minority of less than 600,000...

If you think it is, then you have a ridiculous world view, and I challenge you to hand over your country to a minority numbering the same...

Now, I fully expect you to deflect and completely ignore what I've said...That's fine, post away...You can have the last word as you're obviously right...I may well read what you post, but I won't be replying...

reply to post by Dock9

No diversions, no hypocrisy, this is not a history lesson. This is a discussion about 21'st century problems with 18th century causes. Sorry you wasted your cut-and-paste skills, but your historians add precisely squat to the debate. It's all about what to do now.

The only person wringing hands here is yourself. Our discussion is closed.

Originally posted by Dock9
You don't like this. You don't like true history. It seems you prefer to mouth off and wring your hands and lay blame all over the place because maybe you believe it makes you sound virtuous.

who do you think writes "history", the victors, the oppressors, the slave masters. do you think that it's an aboriginal history?

There's the documented case of the priest in the Northern Territory who opposed Rome in order he could removed two young Aboriginal girls from sexual bondage within their tribe

wanted them for himself, did he?
judging by the stories given to us by people all over the world who were interred in the same type of "schools" and "homes", run by the same priests, from the same orders, at the same time, i doubt the girls were grateful for their salvation.

Originally posted by Retrovertigo

I'm not going to continue to debate someone who accuses me of being disingenuous when I've been nothing but sincere...

i thought the idea was patronizing but the sentiment was good, so i didn't argue it. i've already said that, sorry if i offended you.

you asked for my opinion, i gave it. you don't need to agree, as you said, everyone has one.

[edit on 24/3/10 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman


I think you're here to provoke, quite frankly

Because if you had ANY knowledge of past and current events and provisions made both currently AND 200 years ago for Aborigines --- then you'd realise the error of your claims and comments

What do you know of Native Land Title ?

What do you know of the immense tracts of land in Australia under Aboriginal ownership and control ?

What do you know of budgetry amounts dedicated solely to Australian Aborigines ?

What do you know of 'affirmative action' type initiatives which bestow upon Australian Aborigines benefits which FAR exceed those benefits enjoyed by the whites who PAY for all of it ?

What do you know of educational opportunities reserved strictly for Aborigines ? Ask me. I know. My next door neighbour for years was an Aboriginal woman who said herself, ' We get more than a fair go, don't we, we Abbos ? '

Ask me about how well-protected are police of Aboriginal extraction (or who at least claim 'Aboriginality' despite that their origins might be half Lebanese and half Trobriand Islander) ? Oh .. you don't know ? Well I do, so ask me.

You feel Australian Aborigines are not being treated with respect ? Really ? I guess then that you are ignorant of the fact that the Australian government, using Australian tax-payers' money, buy motels .... and then place an Aborigine as 'manager'. They also lease upmarket tourist shops specialising in 'Aboriginal artifacts' and place Aborigines (or part, one quarter, one tenth, doesn't matter as long as the pigment's there) as 'manager'.

In order to grant Aborigines 'respect', the Australian government also leases accomodation for the Aboriginal 'managers' .. upmarket stuff again, or at least I consider a 14th floor luxury apartment with views over the ocean and broadwater to be pretty upmarket

To further the 'respect', the Australian government also employs OTHERS to actuall RUN these tourist boutiques and motels paid for by the Aussie taxpayer

How do I know ? Well guess what .... I know Aborigines who're the recipient of this generous form of 'respect'. I know the mother of the Aborigine 'manager' of both the tourist boutique AND the motel. And guess what she told me ? She said, ' My son (manager of the coastal motel) is a bum. He does nothing. Others run the place for him. They do the work. He just plays big-shot '. And she was equally honest about her daughter, the 1/4 Aborigine who was given ... at taxpayer expense ... the mangership of a trendy tourist boutique.

Of course, my Aboriginal neighbour's daughter didn't do much running of that enviable business. Because she was so busy flying to the US at Aussie taxpayer expense, in order she could commisserate with her Native American 'brothers and sisters' who were also bemoaning how hard life was under the big, bad white man

Then there are the Aboriginal 'dance troupes' who fly around the world at tax payer expense, increasing their self-respect and garnering (we hope) respect from the population at large

For some reason, this 'respect' we Aussies keep paying to give our Aboriginal population, doesn't seem to prevent non-working Aboriginal 'dance troupe' members (paid well for learning to dance like Aborigines and soon to jet out to Hong Kong and New York) from begging working Aussies for money each day --- as the weary Aussie worker makes his way down city streets to his employment-cell in order to provide for the Aboriginal population and their dance troupes, their motels, their boutiques, their art and singing classes, their accomodation, their spending money, etc. etc.. Why is that ? And why, when the poor Aussie says he can't spare a dime, do those self-respecting Aborigines shout racist abuse at him ?

Anyway, when you learn a lot more than you know now, maybe you will explain

[edit on 24-3-2010 by Dock9]

And let's scotch the BS about supposed 'racism' in the media, shall we ? There's racism alright ... reverse racism

Were you aware that it is against the law for the media to identify Aboriginal criminals *AS* Aboriginal ?

How's that for respect !

IT's another of those 'affirmative action' type initiatives to generate more respect for Aborigines

Fair and equal ? Not if you're Whitey. If you're Whitey, the media will volunteer not only your ethnicity, but also your age, your location, what your neighbour or random idiot has to say about you, etc.

Whitey is suppose to generate his OWN 'respect'. Whitey is named and shamed by the media, in triplicate

But if your Aboriginal, the media must keep it a secret. Your face and your colour will never be revealed. That way, the general population is conned into believing that no crime is committed by Aborigines

You can't get more respectful than that


Same deal goes for a certain immigrant populations of a certain religious orientation. Because too many of them were committing crimes. And that might reflect inconveniently on the government's insane immigration policies ,,,, might cause the populace to scream 'Halt ! '

The police are livid. They're also gagged. They'll be dismissed if they reveal that the gang of drug pushers or rapists or murderers are from the 'X' migrant population. And the media pretends none of it is happening. Those from the 'protected' groups know now that they can do as they please, with the Aussie government covering their backs and covering it all up

Very respectful. Of whom ? Certainly not very respectful of the host population

But maybe you'd like to discuss education opportunities ? Again, my Aborigine neighbour is a well of information. She has many grandchildren, all claiming 'Aboriginality' --- despite that my Aboriginal neighbour is only half Aboriginal herself. Her children's father was a Trobriand Islander, not an Aborigine.

My neighbour wasn't very dark-skinned at all, because she's half white. But her Trobriand Islander husband was black as coal .. fortunately for their offspring, whose claim to be 'Aboriginal' could never be doubted or questioned because of their colour. And it's all about colour. Many alleged 'aborigines' are less than one eighth or one tenth Aboriginal. Some are white as snow, red-haired and blue eyed. But that's ok, because in Australia, if you 'claim Aboriginality' and if others (possibly of equally doubtful origin) back your claim, then you're 'in' ... and the generous government will keep on throwing taxpayers' money at you till you die

So, my neighbour's grandchildren, all of differing colours and actual origins, only have to make it to Grade Ten to be awarded a place at university. Now for ordinary Aussie kids, getting a place at university is tantamount to winning the lottery, because there are limited places and the Aussie government sells a lot of them to overseas students

But if you claim Aboriginality and if you make it to Grade Ten (instead of finishing high school the way Aussie Whitey's are required to do) then the big-heated Aussie government reserves a place for you at uni

But that's not all, because to get to Grade Ten, if you're Aboriginal, you'll need assistance, says the respect-building government. And again, the generous Aussie government waves its magic money-wand and you'll have tutors and book and travel allowances, don't worry

Then, when you're calling yourself a uni student, if you're Aborigine (or claiming to be) you'll again get all the assistance you could ever need. My Aboriginal neighbour told me all about it. Yep ... white kids would think they'd gone to heaven if they had that sort of assistance. I couldn't believe it when my Aborigine neighbour told me. It sounded, from her description, like someone who's handed an Olympic medal for hurdling ... except just for him, all the actual hurdles were removed and someone even did the running for him. And I know most Aussies don't know anything about it. And obviously people outside Australia have NO idea, judging by the erroneous comments I've read from them in this thread.

It's hilarious, really. Aborigines must have not much sense of humour, or we'd see them laughing their heads off, 24/7, at stupid, stupid Whitey and this cock-eyed world. Instead, strongly encouraged by lawyers (who retire early if they work on 'Aboriginal claims and issues') and the rewriters of history, most Aborigines believe they're 'downtrodden' and 'discriminated against' by ... yes, by those bad Aussies who provide them with everything

Then, if they possibly can, the Aussie government pushes Aborigines up the ladder ... pronounces them judges, experts, etc. and thrusts them before the media's cameras at every opportunity, to 'prove' that 'When Aborigines are given the chance, they can succeed' (as motel and boutique managers, etc.) It's called 'building respect', regardless of cost. And too damn bad about that white kid over there who sings like a lark or paints like Monet or has a genius IQ and who never stops trying his heart out, despite he lives in a slum and his mother is dead and his father's a raging alcoholic who beats him senseless. That kid will not be handed a place at university or provided tutors or spending money or free books and easier exams. No. Because that kid is white. He's the wrong colour. He's expected to do it on his own, no help, no extras, no building his self respect. He just doesn't have that all-important pigment component, you see. And no Americans are wringing their hands over him because he's just boring old white, despite that Aborigines might have killed his great grandfather and the State might have flogged his great grandmother for stealing a crust of bread before sending her on a leaky boat to Australia for a life of servitude and suffering

reply to post by pieman


As others have pointed out several times

you are SEE THROUGH



You can't refute the evidence


So instead, you vainly attempt to discredit the poster



It's called 'trolling', isn't it ?

Originally posted by Dock9
Were you aware that it is against the law for the media to identify Aboriginal criminals *AS* Aboriginal ?

can you provide a few examples of news paper reports referring to "white" criminals?

But if you claim Aboriginality and if you make it to Grade Ten (instead of finishing high school the way Aussie Whitey's are required to do) then the big-heated Aussie government reserves a place for you at uni

i duuno, i went on google and found this

Disproportionately few Aboriginal students enrol in tertiary education, and even fewer graduate. Indigenous students represent 1.2 per cent of domestic higher-education students, although they compose 2.5 per cent of the national population (James & Devlin, 2006, p. 16). Fewer than half of the Indigenous students who enrol in higher education complete their degree (James & Devlin, 2006, p. 20). While about 25 per cent of Australians hold university degrees, only 1.3 per cent of Australian Aborigines do so (Hickling-Hudson & Ahlquist, 2003, p. 69). Post-secondary attainment, the completion rate for Aboriginal tertiary students decreases significantly for those who either come from or undertake study in remote rural areas (Ainsworth & Hansen, 2006; Cotton, 1984).

let me guess, it's all lies, right? rewritten history.

I feel I should speak as I have connections to these people. One of my best friends is a young Aboriginal woman. She is a sweetheart and is very smart, and pretty too. My grandmother has worked with the Aboriginal people and KNOWS that before the English came, they had a very advanced society. The difference is it's spiritually, not physically, advanced, and people don't get that.

Originally posted by Dock9
And let's scotch the BS about supposed 'racism' in the media, shall we ? There's racism alright ... reverse racism

And what is "Reverse Racism" exactly?

I wish I hadn't seen this thread. It's got me a bit fired up..

I live out near an Aboriginal Community. It's actually an Aboriginal Settlement and I can tell you as Fact that Aboriginies DO not look after anything they have. The hole in the wall that the OP talks about, was probably put there by the people residing in that home. Those photo's you see of their homes, are exactly what it's like. Thing is, THEY caused it. That's how they live.

I see an Aborigine buy a new car. Not only does the Car never get payed for but you can guarantee that 2 weeks after you see that shiny new car, it will be beaten up and have a broken window or two.

It's disgusting the way they treat their own property. It's disgusting the way they treat other people that are of their Race and not of their Race.

They keep getting caught for Drugs. They keep driving around without a license because they lost it for Drinking and Driving. They Stab and Kill each other. Not long ago, they Killed the Local Teacher for, NOTHING. They just killed him. 20 odd years ago, a couple of 15 year old kids, killed the Local Hotel Owner. In the Main STREET. After they killed him, they went through his pockets and took his money, ALL in BROAD Daylight..

I used to do work for them but now I absolutely Refuse to do anything for them. They Don't/Won't pay their bills. They show up at your House at all times of the Night, Half Drunk, thinking that it's fine to get you out of bed to Jump Start their Car because they left the lights on and flattened their battery.

Before I knew the Aboriginies I used to have Respect for them. I used to think they were Hard Done by. Now I have a totally different View of them..

You have no idea how much money they get given to them. It seems every other week they're getting handed money for something.

And if all the above isn't bad enough, try living next door to them.

I live in a quiet little place. The house across the road became vacant and was put up for reant. Half a Dozen Aboriginies moved in and it's been nothing but Fighting, Screaming Osceneties, Throwing Bottles, Smashing Bottles, Cops Showing up every 5 minutes.

Anyhow, I thought I'd chime in because I know them, First Hand and believe me, They get more than any of us "Whities" get.

Now, The above looks bad but, Some of them, not many, do get up and do something productive. They go to work and try to lead a normal life.

Originally posted by Damian-007
Anyhow, I thought I'd chime in because I know them, First Hand and believe me, They get more than any of us "Whities" get.
Now, The above looks bad but, Some of them, not many, do get up and do something productive. They go to work and try to lead a normal life.

So, the key is, do you keep throwing money at the status quo? Or does Australian society take a paternalistic attitude and say "This doesn't work. Here's how we are changing it."

These great social experiments are politically charged (as this thread amply shows), but from the perspective of seeing our own First Nations and their very similar problems...all I can see is a couple of generations of Health Care, Education, good food and water...and respect.

I can't see that it would cost any more money than sending out cheques.

Developing a leadership that isn't self serving is so very important to the process. We have reserves where the Chief and his family have the quads, the trucks, etc, and their fellows live in poverty. That's part of the problem right there.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Developing a leadership that isn't self serving is so very important to the process. We have reserves where the Chief and his family have the quads, the trucks, etc, and their fellows live in poverty. That's part of the problem right there.

This is one of the biggest, and most unfortunate stumbling blocks in helping First Nations in Canada. These same Chief's are the ones that repeatedly tell the Canadian government, and it's people, to mind our own business.

Like any other recipient of large sums of money, they don't want to change a system that is so beneficial for them?

Would this help with Aboriginal development in Australia, I don't know, and I am not familiar enough with them to comment. But, anything is probably better than the status quo.

As a side note, I do like your thinking on the subject and I am in complete agreement with the "Spend Smarter" not more.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


When I said "MORE", I didn't only mean Money. They get Good Housing, Good Medical (The Hospital is unbelievably Advanced), Good Schools, Good Community Services and just about anything you can think of, They get better.

How do they treat it? Like Rubbish.. The Government has built brand new housing for them out there and as soon as they move in, they start to destroy it. I'm not kidding. I went out there to do a job for an Aboriginie that had moved into a Brand NEW 2 bedroom unit. 3 weeks later, I went back to finish the job, the Unit had the Front windows Smashed, A Car Body on the front lawn, Old Toy's all over the backyard and If you could walk without stepping on an Empty Beer Bottle ar Beer can, you were doing well. Oh, The 3 Week Old T.V.Antenna was bent over and hanging on by it's cable.

I don't know how you fix all this but, I do know one thing. After seeing how they live, I cannot See how they could have ever survived on their own.

It's like I said above, I used to have a huge amount of Empathy for them but now, I only feel Disgust and Anger at the way they treat us, the Government, their belongings and their own people.

I feel ashamed to say this, but, I have often said that we should find a place out in the Northern Territory where the Land has almost been untouched and Fence off a few Square Miles and put all the Aboriginies out there where they can Live exactly how they did before the White man came. Would they be happy with that? No!

The Aboriginies love to complain about how they've been treated. They love to say how they Love the Land and have a connection to it etc. But I can tell you this. If they had of been left on their own, to fend for themselves and not have the "White Mans" luxuries, they wouldn't have survived. They Couldn't have.

People have tried in vain to help the Aboriginies but I feel that they just Spit in the faces of the people and Government who have tried. It's a futile Excersise and in my opinion the Aboriginies will just keep Destroying all the good work that Good People do.

reply to post by Damian-007


Damian,

You can not undo generations of systematic abuse and neglect in one or two generations of charity and handouts.

I can understand how nice it would be if it worked that way, but it will take generations of care and understanding to fix wrongs that took generations to implement.

If every generation could teach their children to be just a little bit better, it would take upwards of ten generations to get some form of substantial evidence.