The American way. The Right way. THE ONLY WAY!

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Yes, you are correct in that thought. We have class systems just as every does. And the people of the lower classes get treated just as bad as other systems do. In truth, there in no being equal in this country, when you don`t have the money to show, your not equal, your below. Oh, many may say that isn`t true, but yet, they can`t prove it isn`t, because it is true.

I have seen the arrogance of the upper class in this country with my own eyes.

Originally posted by projectvxn
I hate it when people put the word Rights in quotation marks as if those rights were meaningless.

One thing that seperates, at least many of the American people, from the rest of the world is our hunger for true freedoms and our rights.

I do not accept the notion that rights are an illusion by government.
...
I think the American Experiment proved that central economic planning doesn't work. The whole world is broke and it is broke be cause men of ill repute think they can control math and nature, which is why I believe in free market(true FM not this fascist soup we've got going on today)economics.

...

As a fellow American, I felt I had to comment on two of the points you mentioned.

On "our hunger for true freedoms and our rights;" this is a very interesting turn of phrase. I have often wondered, even as a child, how we Americans can claim that we live in a free and democratic society when the bulk of our daily experience is spent in environments that are anything but free and democratic.

The three venues where most of our time is spent are home, school, and work.

At home, as children, we are at the autocratic mercy of our parents, who rationalize their despotism on several seemingly valid levels: they are providing us room and board, they brought us into this world and should be respected as our originators (elders), they are responsible for our actions in the larger world and their reputations and standing as social beings are at risk by our public countenance and actions. But other than taking an opportunity to learn and regurgitate colloquial rhetoric, where do children get to learn about or experience freedom? As my own father often said, "this family isn't a democracy, so get up and do what I told you to do!"

At school, the suppression of the individual for the good of the collective is the single most important rule that we are expected to follow, even though it does not appear in any student guide or rule book as such. Even the act of going to school itself, being compulsory and carrying definite penalties if one fails to obey and follow the custom, reeks of totalitarian tyranny and is justified by the same sentiment of what is good for the collective society is what is best for each individual within it. The curriculum itself is typically the result of an exercise in central planning, where the selected representatives of corporate entities decide, committee-style, what will be taught, what will be ignored, and how that subset of reality will be presented. Certainly this is the experience of most Americans ever since the federal government took over with the creation of the Department of Education. And of course, proving the rule, the quality and results of the educational process have suffered measurable setbacks ever since.

Which leaves us the final venue, our place of employment. Is there any American here who can honestly claim that their workplace embodies any of the noble aspects we Americans claim as our birthright? Does anyone work in a place where they have the right to liberty, to free speech, to disagree with faulty procedures and implement their own solutions, or better yet, any influence on the process of who becomes their superior? Even the terminology is tyrannical: how is it that a mid-level manager is the "superior" of those who work "beneath" him or her?

So there are the places where we spend most of our waking moments here in America: home, school, and work, and there isn't a shred of freedom or democracy or a validation of our individual rights to be found anywhere in any of them. Which leaves us hungering, all right. And yet if you ask any of us, we will without thinking say that we live in the society that enjoys the most freedoms anywhere in the world! We are so free that if any of us were ever confronted by a situation in which freedom was the appropriate reaction, we would probably back away, embarrassed by our lack of experience in knowing exactly what to do. Luckily, the chance of this ever happening is pretty damn small, so we are safe.

Are we even free politically? The results of the last 40 years of political reality make the answer to that question so painfully obvious that I'll let it stand unanswered.

And then we come to our rights, naturally, those self-evident universal inalienable rights that Jefferson and others tried to use as a foundation for the governed to be able to choose the nature of the government that was to serve them. Those rights are not granted by, but rather are enumerated so as to be protected by the Bill of Rights in our Constitution.

When the States lost their sovereignty to international bankruptcy because the Civil War failed to produce payment for the debts the nation had incurred even before the Constitution was signed, and a replacement was needed for the failed national republic, a corporation was instituted to take its place. Commercial law, as expressed in the internationally conceived and accepted Uniform Commercial Code, became the highest law of the land and all three branches of the former republic's government were refurbished to conform with corporate regulations stated within it. thus the properly ratified 13th amendment barring those possessing titles of nobility from taking part in government was scratched and the new 13th amendment, making slavery illegal, was put into its place. The 14th amendment, creating a new class of citizen that was in fact owned by the new corporate government was passed without the ratification of the states and was the mechanism that allowed the new corporate government to rule.

Under this new rubric, the Supreme Court tasked the Congress with the job of harmonizing the Bill of Rights with the UCC and the new government. To my knowledge, this has never even been attempted, leaving us with an assumption of rights that are enumerated in a document that is no longer valid, rights we assume we have until a criminal or civil trial or even a traffic stop proves to us that we are mistaken.

Indeed we are hungry for freedom and rights, as none of us have, in our lifetime, experienced either of these essential aspects of American life.

Originally posted by endisnighe

HERE IS THE THING, we are different than the world, we enjoy NOT being FORCED to doing something against our will.

Yes I agree with you that you refuse to be directly told what to do, however the US does force other nations to do what the US thinks is right. Some nations need change, but who gave the US the role as judge, jury and executioner? I don't think the US people (or the world) asked for this or want to pay for it, or will accept it when the country fails as a whole because of it.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by sstark]

So as I sit here and read this thread it started me thinking. About all the negativity the US gets from around the world. And I would agree that we deserve some of it. Although the powers that be seem to think we need to push our ideas over the world. That I disagree with.

Now I my come off as an ass in this next part but I am hoping that it makes sense at least a little. Many of the people that I know are what would be called constitutionalists. We do not want the Government in our lives. We don't want to be tracked at every intersection by a camera sitting there. We founded this country on freedom and that is what we want. We want to be able to walk out and yell this government sucks. Or to protest for change without fear. And there was a time that I think it would have made some changes. And sometimes we do go a little off the deep end when we talk about some things. I have a friend who moved to the US from Wales and we have had very heated conversations about healthcare. But in my opinion I don't want the government looking into every part of my life that is why we founded this country on freedom. And when others talk about how nice it is that they have a better way of doing things. I believe that for some Americans that is a scary thought because for us that have learned history and believe that the US is great we have an emotional response to that.

The part that I think is forgotten a lot of the times is. Freedom is not being able to stand and fight for what you believe is right. It is standing by someone as they shout something that you completely disagree with and know that it is there right as well.

Originally posted by Legion2112
As an American, it seems to me that there is a substantial portion of this thread that fails to differentiate between the American people and the American government. If you're of the opinion that the American government is overbearing, arrogant and lacking the fundamental understanding that what works for us doesn't necessarily work for everyone else, join the club - we meet every Thursday and we've made t-shirts

Then I'd ask the American citizens to stop feeling like it's a personal attack on them when people in other countries criticise things their government does. That's really where most of this percieved 'hate' stems from. Someone from another country says they don't agree with the war in the middle east or something, then some wild eyed US citizen starts screaming about how they hate America.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by Risen]

Originally posted by Namahs5211
...
2. Our founders were a diverse unruly lot, who disagreed on every point except one. This agreement point is the critical difference between us and other peoples. Our founders agreed to a man than governments of any kind is untrustworthy. Governments allow the worst (and sometimes, the best) characteristics of individuals to be expressed in the anonymous form of government edicts. Our government was originally established to allow the individual to see and participate in the governing process. By the way, this wasn't done to get things done, but to stop government entities from overreaching into the life, pocket and property of the individual citizen.

At the time, it was a primitive form of socialism called democracy. In their lives, the enemy was oligarchy. Bureaucracy and Governancey by an elite anonymous few. Our national constitution was written to reign in government not individuals.

As a result, the culture of America has been a paradox and confusing to many. Our government (oligarchy) determines what is best for everyone, including other countries, while being one of the first in line to provide support for friends and detractors in time of crisis.

I think that often the arrogance of "American" is often precipitated by what we think are the willingness of "others" to accept individual restrictions with our collective hypocrisy being obvious as we accept the same restrictions.

...

But given this, the government we have that was intended to restrict government for the people's freedom was a different kind of government. I think the fear now is the fear of what an over reaching government could do if it was in the hands of unflinching ideologues with an agenda.

It is good to remember that the Constitution was modeled partly on the ideas of the Iroquis Confederacy, in balancing the freedom of the individual against the power of the collective. Another important source were French philosophers like Rousseau. The experiment in France turned into a one-way street towards empire, while a successful new state was established in America on these principles.

I quoted the words above because they give a good sense of the idea that government was supposed to be checked by the average citizen - who is an active participatnt - as opposed to the unlimited powers of European monarchs.

It was never meant to work in a way that all government is automatically distrusted and rejected. After all, government is what you elect.

In many right-wing ideologies, this philosophical principle is logically abused. Clauses that were mean to help the freedom of the individual have been used to help the freedom of legal entities - e.g. corporations.

Now, think about it. No one elects the CEO's or the investors.
But we do elect the government.

Hence, the staunch anti-government stance of the right wing is based upon a logical fallacy. The freedom and power originally claimed for individuals was never meant to be used by groups who are powerful entities with big money (hence lawyers and influence also) behind them.

Also, while individuals are mortal, corporations are not. If an individual is in a legal fight with a legal entity, the individual may run out of money in pursuing his/her rights, or get sick, or die, while the corporation just hires more lawyers. If needs be, for another one hundred years.

In modern right-wing ideology, rights of individuals are stressed as opposed to state and federal powers, as if we would really want them for individuals. However, as long as there is no difference between the "free speech" of individuals and advertisement by corporations... you draw the conclusions.

I think it was the 14th Amendment that was used to establish this, even though originally it was created for strengthening the equal rights of Black people.

Watch the Canadian movie "The Corporation."

This is one of the biggest cheat-operations in the legal history of the US. I think there are a lot of right wingers who have been manipulated - the ideas are popularized by think tanks, financed by investor circles who would use the rights and deregualtion gained for industry, not for the balance of power between the individuals and the state.

Such is the cry for "free market." People substitute God by the free market.

Alas, this is a far cry from the freedom envisioned by the founders.
And it is even farther from what was in use among the Iroquois or what Rousseau dreamed of.

Anyone thinking this through can see that ideologically based automatic enemies of government are unknowingly helping corporate power.

Keep in mind - government is elected by individuals. Corporate executives are not. Government is supposed to give account of its actions. Corporations are only accountable before their own investors.

So if you are automatically anti-government in principle (as opposed to the checks and balances that the founding fathers wanted to establish), you are in principle against democracy.

Americans are simply a proud people with a great history. In fact, our way of life and life style is one of our biggest exports. Also, though they may not admit it, many people around the world have a bit of envy toward the US. I certainly don't expect anyone to admit it here, but it can be seen in many anti-American posts. Every human should be proud of their individual nations, since each has a unique role and unique gifts for the world. Don't condemn Americans because we are equally as proud of our nation as you are of yours - we may just be more vocal about it.

To those who keep posting that Americans are despised around the world I have to ask - do you travel at all? I have lived in countries all over the world and can tell you from experience that this is untrue. American policies may be despised, especially recently, but I have never gotten the cold shoulder from anyone anywhere when they learn that I am American. In fact, people are typically happy to meet Americans in every part of the globe. I was in Scotland during 9/11 and I cannot begin to tell you how extremely nice and welcoming the Scots were before and after those events went down. The same holds true of the countries I've been to throughout Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and the Middle East.

My idea of freedom? To be able to do the things I want to do, as long as it hurts no one else, or takes away from no one else. Does this country have the right to push it`s ideals on other countries, no. It does not not fall in line with what being free means. A country can show it by example. But to force it on others, no.

I see something in all of these threads and topics from both sides that scares me. It`s been said many times, that TPTB loves to get everyone POed at each other just to keep everyones attention directed away from them. Well, I hate to say it, but, it`s working. While we all set here jabbing at each other, those clowns(TPTB) are getting away with murder.

So, ok folks, please, don`t look over there, nothing to see there, just focus on getting back at that guy who may have said something you didn`t like in that last thread.

And so many wonder what the H is wrong with this world.

I sometimes feel like i`m waisting my time trying to get this point across to others because they are so dead set in their ways of thinking.

Do people really want to deny ignorance? I often wonder.

We, America? Knows the right way?

That would be news to me. I think you would find very few Americans who think that we know the right way.

However, we aren't a bunch of idiots either. Being that we have enjoyed considerable success, it does give us some bragging rights. You might want to consider that there are those who resent our success, and so are happy to paint us as arrogant, when we darest suggest how they might run their countries.

Then there is this situation where most of the people on the planet want to live in the U.S., because they see it as the land of opportunity. We allow a more than respectable number of people to immigrate to our country.

The problem comes from this. Many people see the U.S. as the land of opportunity, but they don't want to give any credit for the success of the U.S. to the people and the culture who created this country. They want to live in the U.S., but continue practicing their culture, to the exclusion of U.S. culture. This creates the conflict.

The people of the U.S. should have the right to demand that other cultures who come to our country adopt a great many of our cultural traits.

What our military, and especially what our corporations do, outside of our country, we have very little control over. A great many people in the U.S. would like to see our military reigned in, myself included. There are plenty of threads here on ATS were many U.S. Americans (by the way, Canadians are also Americans ) are highly critical of our government, our foreign policy, and the actions of our corporations overseas.

Lastly, if people are allowed to criticize the U.S., why aren't we allowed to criticize other countries?

reply to post by Kokatsi


You should read through this thread-The Democracy Conspiracy

I do agree on your corporation component. But, our government has become a corporate fascist state with the Banks and the Mega Corps controlling the government.

That is why people rail against it. Now what is the solution? To go to another form of control? Where the government controls all the means of business?

Or do we go back to what works and what gives the individual the most power?

Any large government ends in tyranny, so the least government has to be the solution.

reply to post by intrepid


I'm curious myself about Canada. I just learned today you do not have Free Speech which has always been considered the anchor of freedom in any society.

How do you feel about not having Free Speech?

I'm not criticizing here, just trying to understand how you ended up in that position considering how important it is to freedom in general.

Can any society be truly free without the ability to speak freely without fear?

reply to post by endisnighe


Except the people who claim they are for smaller government want to keep the big military and police components of government, continue the parts that take away individual rights, and eliminate the part that protects individuals from corporate abuse.

Reduce government by getting rid of black ops CIA projects, the war on drugs, and stop policing the world first. Those are the components that are taking away our rights.

reply to post by endisnighe


Great link, thread. Thanks. (S)

Have questions, but they aren't pertinent to this thread. Do you mind if I carry your comments to your other thread for discussion?

reply to post by Kokatsi


The founders were all businessmen. The secret of the US revolution was it was corporate based from the beginning. For example, the original Tea Party was manipulated by printers in the Boston area due to a tax on their supplies. Anti capitalism misses the point. The founders did not trust those they elected, they believed in the corruptibility of human kind in a profound way. It was this distrust that they incorporated into the constitution to check the power of elected officials. In the emergent process that came from their discussions came seven co-equal components of government. Each expected by the founders to pursue their own power, but with the others to keep them in check: The executive, two legislative, and judicial branches, with states, the media, and the citizenry. The funny thing is each was expected to be the party of NO to the others. Compromise was expected but not at the expense of the others.

Again, the stand taken by the founders in the constitution was not against corporation or the citizenry but against the corruptibility of bureaucracy and power. The founders took ideas from classical and alternative political theory but it was based on the basis distrust of men in power. Again, the constitution argument remains against oligarchy and tyranny rather than any "ism"s that might form or develop.

reply to post by Blaine91555


We don't? I think you mean to say that we don't have the same free speech.

We have a great respect for freedom of expression in Canada, as well as on our campus, and view it as a fundamental freedom, as recognized by our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I would, however, like to inform you, or perhaps remind you, that our domestic laws, both provincial and federal, delineate freedom of expression (or “free speech”) in a manner that is somewhat different than the approach taken in the United States. I therefore encourage you to educate yourself, if need be, as to what is acceptable in Canada and to do so before your planned visit here. You will realize that Canadian law puts reasonable limits on the freedom of expression. For example, promoting hatred against any identifiable group would not only be considered inappropriate, but could in fact lead to criminal charges. Outside of the criminal realm, Canadian defamation laws also limit freedom of expression and may differ somewhat from those to which you are accustomed.

blogs.canoe.ca...


We have freedom of speech, but IMO we also let some respectable laws control it in a few, good to have ways. Very rarely do Canadians complain about anything free speech. We have massive protests, yell things at police and as long as we're non-violent and somewhat respectful and all that, things are fine.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by sstark]

reply to post by poet1b


"Being that we have enjoyed considerable success, it does give us some bragging rights."


poet1b, did`t you mean an even larger ego trip and not bragging rights? Because that is what bragging rights are, an ego trip.

Originally posted by Risen

Originally posted by Legion2112
As an American, it seems to me that there is a substantial portion of this thread that fails to differentiate between the American people and the American government. If you're of the opinion that the American government is overbearing, arrogant and lacking the fundamental understanding that what works for us doesn't necessarily work for everyone else, join the club - we meet every Thursday and we've made t-shirts

Then I'd ask the American citizens to stop feeling like it's a personal attack on them when people in other countries criticise things their government does. That's really where most of this percieved 'hate' stems from. Someone from another country says they don't agree with the war in the middle east or something, then some wild eyed US citizen starts screaming about how they hate America.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by Risen]

Right on!! Americans are fantastic people. Your government sucks!! So, don't take it personally when we criticize it. My Canadian government can be pretty annoying,too. I won't take it as a slam on all Canadians should people choose to dis them.

Jason

Well done Intrepid thanks for addressing the issues.

We've taken a lot of flak lately, I would assume this is because the HCR process has stirred some very real and deep emotions in our American brothers.

Those emotions are certainly justified.

I agree that the Internet provides for different view points from well educated and brilliant minds. The former not being required to have the ladder.

As my dad use to say:

"Don't poop where you eat."

~Keeper

As an Englishman I am an Americanophile.

I understand why America is knocked, it is the same reason that the worlds greatest sporting team e.g. Manchester United have so many people prepared to knock it - there is something inherent in human nature where people want to knock the "smart one" off their perch It's not right - just human nature.

At the moment (still) America has more power than many of the other countries put together - but does it use that power wisely? Well it's very easy for an Englishman (or any other countryman) to say it doesn't when we really know that any other country with this amount of power would make a far bigger mess than America has.

I compare the attitude of the American's who (in my eyes rightly) carry a lot of the self belief (notice this is the positive of arrogance) that comes with living in a powerful country. Compare that to my country UK - where we are really ashamed of ourselves living in a country that we believe was once great but now in decline

reply to post by gaurdian2012


A civil rebuttal to an amazingly uncivil comment:

I am an American. I have traveled far and wide throughout Europe and the Middle East and count some of my closest friends from those parts of the world. I for one think Canada and Canadians are fantastic. I also love the land of my birth, faults and all. BTW, we Americans are not exactly "hated" all around the world. Some of our nation's policies, yeah, they are "hated", but our people? Not exactly. Let's all try to get beyond national stereotyping. It's a sign of incredibly simplistic thinking and not worthy of a site such as ATS. Oh yeah, and about our cars? Up until a few years ago we surely had some real stinkers, but how about the new Ford Fusion, or the current Chevrolet Malibu, not to mention the Corvette Z06. Our automotive heritage is on the path to renewed greatness. America is in some real trouble these days to be sure, but always remember that there are a great many of us here in the U.S. who want the best not only for our nation, but our world as well. Time to get past the caricatures.