People against Obamacare, Stop!

reply to post by Tom_Proctor


free healthcare?


wow the guys on your side of this arguement need to edumacate you..

free health care

you drinking the red kool-aid..

If this so called "Obamacare" is going to have the force and weight of law, then that means that respect for the law still holds, and if that is true then there is a Supreme Law of the Land that makes clear to Congress that it matters not if every single voter in the nation but one wanted this legislation, all that matters is that whatever legislation is passed does not in any way abrogate or derogate the rights of any individual. If that one single person who opposes "Obamacare" has had his or her rights trampled upon by this Bill, then the federal government is required by law to accept this persons petition for a redress of grievances and if it is found that his or her rights were abrogated and derogated due to this legislation, then by law the legislation that caused this abrogation and derogation is unconstitutional and can not stand as law regardless of how popular it might be.

I was surprised from the legal philosophy point of view in 84 when I learned auto insurance is obligatory in the US (even though the Constituion did not specify that), but AT THE SAME TIME, private companies would define your exact rates as they liked (mostly based on place of residence - and starting with the assumtpion of the worst record the first year even if you had not driven a car in the US before). VA had for a while an option that you paid the state and did not take out insurance.

Auto insurance passed long ago because big industry wanted it. This is legally the same stuff but it is mostly average people that want it - neither the richest ones, nor the investor clubs. So extremists are even threatening Obama now for this very issue.

You could argue against that theoretically, from a Libertarian point of view - e.g. my world view based on whatever religion prevents me from accidents but when I have one I will pay myself... why can't the state levave me alone... but I think once somebody has any bit of uncertainty in income and
raise a child or have serious health problems - or all three - they will find that position untenable and unrealistic.

I completely turned around in philosophy around the 90s, living in the US. I would no longer ask questions like why is it mandatory - I would question why alternative care is not provided or financed, and other details.

I do not know the details but I think general health insurance itself is a good idea - see the Brits and Canadians did not give up their freedom (to die under the bridge). I tend to think those people who question the very idea of a general health care are immature, selfish or both, or - fourth option - are prisoners of a dogmatic right wing rhetoric (that is actually driven by industrialists' money). And that it is useless to argue with them because their arguments tend to stay at the high school level - no personal experience of the consequences of their beliefs, just empty theories.

The people for this bill only hear what they want to hear... let me make it simple for the OP THERE IS NO FREE HEALTHCARE... READ THE DANG BILL BEFORE YOU START TELLING ME I'M WRONG AND YOURE RIGHT!!!!

Oh and you may want to brush up on your math skills too and maybe recount the people for this and the people against it.

There is NOTHING free about the health care.

It's one big fat lie.

It's just a stupid bill like the bank bailouts, which by the way wasn't $800+ billion but actually $23.7 Trillion if you look it up.

What exactly did the bank bailouts do? Oh yeah, they gave the bank executives hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses, and some hundred billions (in actually TRILLIONS) went "missing" and no one knows where.

The "FREE" Health Care is just as BIG as a SCAM as the "FEDERAL" Reserve, which is NOT federal!

The Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE INTERNATIONAL Bank that gives Money to other countries with interest, and then collects it back, then lends out more, and then collects it back with additional interest.

Maddoff didn't do the biggest ponzi scheme of $50 billion. The Federal Reserve has does the BIGGEST PONZI scheme in the history of mankind with $100 Trillion+ stolen from the past several decades of its existence!

Wake up and smell the horse poo.

Tom_Proctor - Maybe you should have at least read some of the bill(s) before posting your misinformation. A good place to start in the future is www.govtrack.us.

You are a shining example of a large problem in this country: blind support. Please, for yourself and those you know, fix the problem!

reply to post by Tom_Proctor


Tom I commend your attempt to encourage rational thought although it may fall upon many deaf ears.

Ironically, it is many of the exact same people that think our government is too inept to manage Healthcare who think the same government was cohesive enough to cover up 9/11.

They are either just Anti-Government or more recently Anti-Obama. They are mostly arm-chair patriots, disgruntled birthers or faux constitutionalists. They want a re-match of the Civil War which ostensibly gave the Federal Government the very power it yields today.

Make no mistake this is Landmark Legislation that will benefit the citizens of America for generations to come. The Federal Government is the cohesive glue that holds this nation together and they have served the people well with this bill.



[edit on 23-3-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by Kokatsi


I am all for affordable healthcare.

All for it. Think it should exist, I thought hmo's and ppo's were suppose to provide that.

I am not for breaking the law for not having health insurence for whatever reason. Having to push buttons on a automated phone line to the irs to try to reach a human being and explain why I cannot afford health care, or all the red tape I will have to cross to clear my name or whatever! Bull crap I will have to do is what I am not for. In addition with all my bills now I have no idea how I can afford health insurence since I am self employed in the service buisness. Its ridiculus and I do not beleive it will stop here.. They will come up with bigger and better idea's on how to tweak the system which includes how they can keep tabs on our personal health and where we are at all times as well. SO they can make sure we have health insurence.

My biggest problem with this is it was not bi partisan, it was one sides idea's literally.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Bicent76]

I agree that there is a problem, however, how do we really know what the people want? Or the ramifications of this bill? Or shall we look at how those in power got the votes? Is a vote legal if the means to get such a vote is immoral or illegale? Where is the fairness when votes are bought, or strong armed? There is no contract that could be considered enforcable if it is done under duress, and parts of the back room deals were done under duress. If this was just about health care, and not mandated, then it would not been the outcrying, but this is much more than that. It is about control and the government intrusion into your life. Under this bill, the IRS is the enforcing arm of this, just like prohibition. They will fine you with extra taxes, that progressively grow each year that it happens. And does absolutely nothing for anyone for the next 4 years. It takes from other areas of the government to start paying for it. It makes children dependent on their parents for alot longer that what would be normal. It dictates how you should live, and the federal government will turn around and use this against the citizens, and individual states. There has never been a mandate set out by the federal government that is so intrusive into the lives of its citizens as this is. The last mandate was stopped in the 1960's. This is not progress, or real change the way the people want.

Originally posted by Tom_Proctor
The representatives you voted for, chose Obamacare.

All I'm asking is that the "They voted against the people of America" line goes away. There's another side that won, and it wasn't yours.

That's not a one time thing. They don't stop listening once they are voted in. Or let me rephrase that. They shouldn't stop listening once they are voted in.

what level of stupidity are the people that are against universal healthcare
IF YOU ARE ALLREADY COVERED THIS DOES NOT EFFECT YOU.....this is for the millions of people that dont have coverage you americans are a real dumb lot. i'll bet you would turn down help being offerd if your life depended on it. how arrogant, this universal healthcare was a long time coming and will benefit ALL americans not just the elite.....
wake up sheeple
when i was younger i sold fake insurance (medical discounts) to americans and they bought it up like it was the best thing since sliced bread i made over 100k in commissions until the fbi came calling do you people want something (universal healthcare) or nothing (medical discounts)

here is your nothing

www.medhealthplus.com...

ps they screwed me for my last commission cheque

[edit on 23-3-2010 by gaurdian2012]

Originally posted by Tom_Proctor

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by Tom_Proctor
You people against Obamacare are not looking very intelligent right now. I always see the "Our government did this with a lot of peoples disliking! Therefore it's illegal and against the Bill Of Rights!"

What I think most people against it don't realize, is that there was another side. People who liked it.

OBVIOUSLY people who wanted it, outnumbered the people who disliked it.

Stop the nonsense people who dislike it! Get some new and real reasons why you lost!



[edit on 23-3-2010 by Tom_Proctor]



[edit on 23-3-2010 by Tom_Proctor]

It doesn't matter who liked it and who didn't. The US Constitution forbids involuntary servitude unless one is convicted of a crime (13th Amendment). Forcing someone to do something against their will under threat of fine or imprisonment is involuntary servitude. A person has to use money they earn to pay for this insurance by force of law. This law is going down.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Fromabove]

Then leave the country, go to a country that doesn't give you free healthcare. Good luck finding one that isn't a poor third world country.

No. This is OUR country. People who want socialism can move to a country that supports that. America is NOT a socialist country. If certain people want to try and make it one, then good luck with that.

reply to post by kinda kurious


Interesting to assume that because I don't support health care I don't know what I'm talking about? How is it that the cost of health care got so expensive? All those law suits against the health industry didn't help. The only people who profited from it were lawyers! And since lawyers tend to run for office... In my home state the hospitals are used as a doctors office by those on the gov't teat. Oh yea they even get a free cab ride home. That just shows me how the system is eliminating personal accountability! And like I've said in other posts today... Why are illustrious leaders not going on the same supposed universal coverage? If it's good enough for us, put your money where your mouth is and join in. Interesting how they put that little divide up is it not??

Originally posted by Tom_Proctor
OBVIOUSLY people who wanted it, outnumbered the people who disliked it.

We'll find out if that's true in November. I know I'm looking forward to the elections, and really don't expect this bill to make it to 2014...

Originally posted by Kokatsi
I was surprised from the legal philosophy point of view in 84 when I learned auto insurance is obligatory in the US (even though the Constituion did not specify that), but AT THE SAME TIME, private companies would define your exact rates as they liked (mostly based on place of residence - and starting with the assumtpion of the worst record the first year even if you had not driven a car in the US before). VA had for a while an option that you paid the state and did not take out insurance.

Auto insurance passed long ago because big industry wanted it. This is legally the same stuff but it is mostly average people that want it - neither the richest ones, nor the investor clubs. So extremists are even threatening Obama now for this very issue.

You could argue against that theoretically, from a Libertarian point of view - e.g. my world view based on whatever religion prevents me from accidents but when I have one I will pay myself... why can't the state levave me alone... but I think once somebody has any bit of uncertainty in income and
raise a child or have serious health problems - or all three - they will find that position untenable and unrealistic.

I completely turned around in philosophy around the 90s, living in the US. I would no longer ask questions like why is it mandatory - I would question why alternative care is not provided or financed, and other details.

I do not know the details but I think general health insurance itself is a good idea - see the Brits and Canadians did not give up their freedom (to die under the bridge). I tend to think those people who question the very idea of a general health care are immature, selfish or both, or - fourth option - are prisoners of a dogmatic right wing rhetoric (that is actually driven by industrialists' money). And that it is useless to argue with them because their arguments tend to stay at the high school level - no personal experience of the consequences of their beliefs, just empty theories.

I think you will notice that pretty much everyone who disagrees with this bill doesn't think people should not have access to health care or that they shouldn't be treated.

I believe you will find that being FORCED to by a government or you go to jail is the problem. Yes we have been here before but that was before I was born. This is now. I would repeal the other things to if it was in my power. This is a recent change. It will not and should not stand. The other things in the bill. Google it and read it.

Originally posted by kinda kurious
reply to post by Tom_Proctor

 

Tom I commend your attempt to encourage rational thought although it may fall upon many deaf ears.

Ironically, it is many of the exact same people that think our government is too inept to manage Healthcare who think the same government was cohesive enough to cover up 9/11.

They are either just Anti-Government or more recently Anti-Obama. They are mostly arm-chair patriots, disgruntled birthers or faux constitutionalists. They want a re-match of the Civil War which ostensibly gave the Federal Government the very power it yields today.

Make no mistake this is Landmark Legislation that will benefit the citizens of America for generations to come. The Federal Government is the cohesive glue that holds this nation together and they have served the people well with this bill.



[edit on 23-3-2010 by kinda kurious]

You have not read the bill. Either that or you are impaired. Simple as that.

Originally posted by gaurdian2012
what level of stupidity are the people that are against universal healthcare
IF YOU ARE ALLREADY COVERED THIS DOES NOT EFFECT YOU.....this is for the millions of people that dont have coverage you americans are a real dumb lot. i'll bet you would turn down help being offerd if your life depended on it. how arrogant, this universal healthcare was a long time coming and will benefit ALL americans not just the elite.....
wake up sheeple
when i was younger i sold fake insurance (medical discounts) to americans and they bought it up like it was the best thing since sliced bread i made over 100k in commissions until the fbi came calling do you people want something (universal care) or nothing (medical discounts)

here is your nothing

www.medhealthplus.com...

ps they screwed me for my last commission cheque

[edit on 23-3-2010 by gaurdian2012]

If you have insurance you will still be taxed. Open your eyes people and read the bill. It's not that hard of a thing to do. You might as well get your facts straight if you are going to deny ignorance.

I'm guessing none of you have actually read the bill either. It would take ridiculously long to read it

I have read a general summary, and it doesn't seem too bad, except for people that want to go tanning.

10% tax on tanning! OMG, RUN!

Originally posted by gaurdian2012
what level of stupidity are the people that are against universal healthcare
IF YOU ARE ALLREADY COVERED THIS DOES NOT EFFECT YOU.....

of course it doesn't. We live in a vacuum.

i have never seen so many pissed off people before....

this is funny to me...

none of you all have obviously read the whole damn bill either... you are just regurgitating what you have heard...

the bills not perfect, but its a LARGE step in the right direction...

we have needed insurance reform for ages...

although i would have preferred to go with all out socialist with health care, this is a step in the right direction...

its time for the u.s. to start catching up with the rest of the world so that we can once again lead the world...