An American calling his Government out!

I'd be pretty impressed if anyone had come even close to denting this monster bill around here.

Somehow I seriously doubt it.

Let's be clear about one thing though, America is not special by some providential action or because we are different as people, we are not.

America is different culturally, and that comes with good and bad things that many "more civilized" nations simply don't get. We have no need to "keep up" with anyone since most of us don't want the systems other nations have.

The sign on the door of America reads "Liberty", but it's been scratched out 100 years ago and has been in a state of decline ever since.

Yes, there are bad things about America, but let's not simply throw us under the bus as totally fat, stupid, and arrogant. This is patently untrue of all of us, although there are plenty of folks here that fit that bill.

In terms of health care, there are better ways to fix the problem than ANY of the things this bill could possibly cover since we live in a nation that utilizes State's general supremacy in dictating the terms of it's citizen's benefits vs responsibility.

Our system is not in a place where European style systems would work well as Washington rarely places the same safeguards and security as Europeans do. This makes implementation (over a somewhat capitalist system) very dangerous to the average person.

We have many problems here, but the Federal government is almost NEVER the solution, only an extension of the problem.

reply to post by disfugured


The reason why this bill is bad is the fact that those of us that don't have insurance is because we can't afford it. This bill does nothing to make insurance affordable. I work 60 hours a week. I sell cars. The auto industry is, as everyone knows, suffering so my paychecks are small. Now, because I am a single male with a job that does offer health insurance, I do not qualify for state aid health insurance, Thru my work I can get it but the cost is so extreme it would literaly leave me around $500 a month to make ends meet. That is impossible. So now this bill would punish for not getting insurance and to avoid punishment I should by insurance but then I would lose my apartment and be broke.

All in all I would be better off to then leave my job, collect welfare and let the state and fellow taxpayers support me. Then I could get my health coverage. Can someone please tell me where this bill helps me (one of the 42 million without health insurance) finally be able to get it and be able to still survive?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Yeah I have served....

As my grandfather and father, my uncles, myself and my brothers. Now my son and his cousins are serving. We are patriots. We love this country and for all that the founding fathers stood for.


We have Served.

***snip***
FINE we said....
***snip***
FINE we said....
***snip***
FINE we said....
***snip***
FINE we said....
***snip***
FINE we said....
***snip***
NOT FINE ANYMORE!
***snip***
NOT FINE ANYMORE!

You'll make some payments on the debt with the interest but nowhere near enough to pay the debt down.

But...

It'll look like you made some progress with reducing it.

NOT FINE ANYMORE!
***snip***

Have you thought about demanding your troops back to The United States?
If they stay the hell out of countries where they are not wanted and not needed do you think that the money could be used for improving inland security and perhaps pay the health care bill?

To date, $1.05 trillion dollars have been allocated to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The national, state, and local numbers we provide are based on the total approved amounts through the end of Fiscal Year 2010.

The money spent on the war effort could be used to improve the USofA.

Perhaps you can then get back to a place in history where other nations than USofA call you a "great nation".



[edit on 23.3.2010 by HolgerTheDane]

Please stop with this patriotic mumb jumbo crap of serving your country. You don't serve your country i.e. the American people anymore. You serve a tyrannical, elitist, corrupt government and corporations. Our southern border is wide open. Yet our government does nothing. When was the last terrorist attack on US soil? How come there hasn't been on since 9/11? The FBI and CIA are that good at weeding them out and stopping them before they attack us? Please........if I hated America and was a terrorist I could hijack a gas tanker truck and ram it into a building. I could get some of my muslim terrorist buddies and go shoot up malls and schools ala Mumbai. The REAL TRUTH is there is no terrorist threat in America. 9/11 was one big lie and fabrication to go into the middle east and build an empire.

So if all you soldiers and enlisted really want to help out the American people you'll put down your weapon and stand with us in rejection of government as it now stands. Otherwise before you know it you'll be pointing your gun at Americans............and don't say you won't because that is bull#.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Slayer i agree with everything you said...

But in my 'ignorance' - i fail to see why you don't want health care for those who cannot afford it?

You'd think in a time like this, those without money (lost jobs, homes etc) would be relying on their fellow man to assist them...?

Let me introduce myself. Hello, I'm a temp worker w/very little to no money by the end of the month. No where in this bill does it say that the insurance they are making us get is GOING TO BE FREE. It is not free! I have to pay for it. If I don't have two nickles to rub together at the end of the month, what the hell makes you think I'll be able to pay for this extra expense? They are not making it easier to get on Medicare/Medicaid or providing any new free services in order to keep you out of jail when you can not get this insurance. No, they are going to fine me each time they can prove I didn't have coverage.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE PEOPLE, JUST A METAPHOR TO GET YOU TO THINK:
Think of this like your car insurance. Most MUST HAVE IT in order to operate any vehicle, and if you:
1) get the insurance and drop it, the insurance companies rat you out to your DMV so you are fined
2) change without proof and you are fined and jailed
3) No insurance, no car!

So this is no help to your fellow man, woman or child. All this does is add fines to your daily existence, especially if you have no income. I am tired of people assuming this is a hand out. It is not. It is a divisive way to bankrupt this country by overloading its jails with the new criminals - the ones that can't afford to keep up with the laws of this new world order.
Can you say Debtor's Prisons anyone?

wow, the television is being bombarded with commercials ALREADY on where to go (urls), where to call(800 numbers) to apply for this "great new healthcare".

Supposedly they are alotting 1200 new applications to be approved daily, here in my local state/district?

One commercial said 3$ a day. So it's still gonna cost the homeless, the poor what nearly $100 a month for healthcare. So it's not free. All the while they are gonna tax the working man a good deal more than $100 a month to pay for this. More profit for our greedy government.

I'm just awestuck it seems every 4th commercial is how to get this new healthcare.

Also another note Walgreens and CVS are on board with this plan I saw, and you can save up to a whopping 40-60% on the cost of prescriptions w/ this new healthcare.

So that $2000 script for 100 pills of whatever medicine you take per month now only costs you $800????.

This is not going to help the poor, the homeless, the disabled one bit. haha.

Wow I'd like my old medicaid/medicare back plz.

I'm going to dig around see if I can't find and link any of these commercials I've just seen. Has anyone else seen these commercials in thier state. I'm in Florida, and I've seen quite a few in the last half hour I flipped the televisision on. (btw the two stations I'm watching are discovery, and the History channel that are airing these local commercials). If that helps.

...and to the people who are wondering WHY we didn't vote against this. There was no vote. The local congressman, and Statesman vote for YOU. you voted them in. That's how it works.

Since it goes all the way up to POTUS, the people basically have NO vote on anything in America anymore. Since the President is now basically selected FOR the people. Through main stream media backing, and big money campaigns.

I think I'll be passing on this "plan", well at least the one there showing today on TV. I won't be applying for that. It's not gonna save me much, and it's gonna put me on thier radar. I'll probably have to change doctors ect, medications ect.., no thanks.


**Granted I have no Idea if this is the actual new Plan that was passed, or just some upstart Medical Coverage co. trying to make it look that way. The commercials I saw all looked very official, and mentioned "new healthcare bill " many times. But it could be a Private co. a small Humana or some upstart trying to take advantage of the situation? and the American's peoples need to always want to be FIRST**

So I'll wait and see.

But in regards to the OP'er. Thanks you and yours for your service to this country. It's a shame the past 20 years or so, every war has been based on lies, and money. But yea, although everyones line is different, and where they choose to draw it in the sand...., this is looking like the proverbial "straw" that's gonna break most tax payers, most Americans back. It's not gonna be pretty.





[edit on 23-3-2010 by Nola213]

Originally posted by silentthought38
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

I'm afraid his children won't be given a fair chance. In fact, no child in America will be given a fair chance. Not even the PR posterchild that Obama enlisted as he signed the healthcare bill.

Even if we don't consider the cost of this healthcare bill, the already mounting debt that we will be giving our children will eventually come crashing down upon them. If not them, then maybe their children. We shall see how long the gov't can hold up their house of cards.

So to be blunt, our progeny will have no use for fairer national healthcare if there is no longer a nation.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by silentthought38]

I myself believe you won`t have to wait that long before it falls down.

If this health care bill is so needed as they say it is, and i`m not saying it isn`t, the first thing one must do is look at the cost of such a large bill. Now, with that in mind, the cost is going to be very large, no matter what they say they are going to do to cut the costs, it still is going to be a very large cost. Now with THAT said, anyone would know that to pay for this, there will be a need for a tax hike. Many of you will say bunk to that, but, when in the last 60 years didn`t anything this large not need a tax hike? Now, let`s say as we look at this, the first thing to come to mind is......can those who are still with a job afford another tax hike? In all reality, no. So, with the national debt being as it is right now, which is unpayable beings they are borrowing money each and everyday to keep the country afloat, and what taxes they are taking in at this time only goes to pay on the interest of that debt, how can they believe the country can continue to do this? It can`t, and still go on as normal. This house of cards we call a money system is going to fall apart under this massive weight of debt.

Shouldn`t the thinking be, get those who are out of work, back to work first before wanting to take this kind of leap into further debt? How is adding to one large problem going to solve another large problem? It never will solve it or even fix either one. And if you really think about it for just a moment, when you take more away from those who are still working, and just getting by, you place them in a state where in time, they will be one of the needy(bankrupt and in need of health care). So really, you are doing nothing but adding to not one problem, but many.

When this is all said and done, this bill will do nothing more then help bring down an ever shaky money system and economy. You can not force something from one, just to give it to another because they may not have it. You can ask for people to give what they can, you just can`t take it away from them, when it`s not yours to take in the first place.

EDIT TO ADD:

I have just reread a few threads here, and many are saying something about it being free? No, i haven`t seen anything about this from day one saying it was going to be free at all. It will cost each and everyone something in the end. Not only money lost, but time lost waiting for services needed. When any government starts regulating what a doctor can and can`t do, or what a patient can and can not have, you are asking for more trouble then it is worth. And the government was not created for this kind of work............regulating lives.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by FiatLux]

reply to post by freetree64


Wow....

I dont know what pisses me off more.. Her arrogance against Americans and your institutions or the fact that you guys are not stringing them all up in Pennsylvania avenue with the rest of the blow hard scroungers you call leaders

I think it's a safe bet that this will be repealed. Expect a culling of the democrats in November. Here in my home state of Michigan, people are calling for Stupak's head on a platter.

I don't see this lasting.

Originally posted by Darkrunner
I think it's a safe bet that this will be repealed. Expect a culling of the democrats in November. Here in my home state of Michigan, people are calling for Stupak's head on a platter.

I don't see this lasting.

Your timing on this comment is most fortuitous - Because I just came across this little gem...

ILLEGAL ANTI-REPEAL PROVISION BURIED INSIDE THE BILL
Buried within the massive amendment to the Senate version of the Health Care legislation inserted by Senator Harry Reid of Nevada is an illegal clause which purports to bind Congress in the future from repealing Section 3403. In the United Kingdom, no House of Commons can bind its successor, and the same principle applies in the United States. The offending clause reads:

‘It shall not be in order in the Senate or the House of Representatives to consider any bill, resolution, amendment or conference report that would repeal or otherwise change this subsection’.

The subsection, starting on page 1,000 of this convoluted Talmudic legislation, concerns the regulatory power of the Independent Medicare Advisory Board (IMAB) to ‘reduce the per capita rate of growth of Medicare spending’.

ANTI-REPEAL CLAUSE = CHANGE IN SENATE ‘PROCEDURES’, NOT IN SENATE RULES
In order to procure the ‘legality’ of the provision that this subsection cannot ever be repealed or changed in the future, the (Reid-controlled) Senate Parliamentarian has ruled, in a classic example of nefarious ‘loopholeism’, that the anti-repeal provision does not constitute a change of Senate RULES, but rather of Senate ‘procedures’.

The reason for this is that for 200 years, changes in the Senate's standing rules have required approval by two-thirds of those voting – that is to say, 67 votes, rather than the 60 votes that Senator Reid’s amendment received.

Thus Senator Harry Reid flouted two centuries of standing US Senate rules to pass a measure in the dead of night (which these Dark Forces always try to do) that no Senator has read, and part of which can never be changed (although the anti-repeal provision is illegal).

Senator Reid is reported to have tossed aside an earlier assurance that Senators and the public would have 72 hours to read the language of his contributions to the Senate measure – because if the existence of this clause had been highlighted in time, there might have been an uproar.

Are you getting the full effect here? Do you understand the implications of this maneuver?

These thugs are not just working to pass legislation that Americans don’t want, they’re actively seeking to include unconstitutional language that would essentially bar future lawmakers from being able to change it!

At this point… I don’t think it could be more clear.

Our government has violated its oath to uphold the Constitution. In essence, this government is now rogue and operating outside of the constraints of the laws that govern our land.

This is dangerous. And it comes at a time when we as a people are hurting… which makes it all the more evil and malicious.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Yeah I have served....

As my grandfather and father, my uncles, myself and my brothers. Now my son and his cousins are serving. We are patriots. We love this country and for all that the founding fathers stood for.


We have Served.

You raised our taxes. FINE we said.... You supported our domestic companies moving overseas in search of higher corporate profits. FINE we said.... You wanted wars for resources FINE we said.... You said there was a bogyman out there that we needed to blow the crap out of FINE we said.... There were companies that needed to be bailed out or it would ruin the US economy. FINE we said....

It's bad enough that we take heat and CRAP for supporting you. It's bad enough we take BS on a daily bases from everybody becuase of your actions. But we will be DAMNED if we are going to sit here and take it anymore.

You are going to force some sort of half-assed Health Care reform that we have to pay for whether we like it or not whether we are sick or in need or not. Whether we can afford it or not...

NOT FINE ANYMORE!

Well, I guess you should have spoken up a long time ago. You supported unnecessary wars, sat back while our jobs moved overseas, but OMG we're actually going to be helping people in America, and that's just TOO MUCH!

Guess you should have stood up a long time ago, rather than just going with the flow. It's a little late now.

reply to post by mothershipzeta


For all of the people attacking Slayer on his post that he should have spoken up earlier and saying things like now you don't like it when something can help the American people. If you look at this bill and I have tried to. This will do no help making people have a new bill when they can barely pay the ones they have. So what if it comes down to the house payment or this new insurance payment. You pay the house and now you are getting fined or can have the house taken because you did not pay the government more money. Tell me how that is helping. I agree with others that a change needs to happen but this is not it.

fighting amoung yourselves..


I will simply put it in this fashion..

If you are in favor of this bill and how it was passed and written up, and think it is right and constitutional. You are very ignorant and uneducated, and lack the understanding of what freedom is. Freedom was not as endangered in 1776, then it is now..

Eutopic dreams, standing in front of liberty.



its never to late to stand up and fight..

Only problem is the Government does not fear you at all, and has bigger and better guns.. It would be suicide...

I do like entertainment thou..

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Bicent76]

reply to post by SLAYER69


How right you are friend but the question begs asking , have we been dug into a hole that is now to deep to climb out of ?

I guess as long as people have there TV programs and there sports teams most will not notice what has happened .

Its a sad thing , we once had a Republic and a government for the people by the people . We once had a government that worked for the people , now we have a government that dictates to the people and all we can do is say ok , its for our own good , now put on American Idol ........

My question is , what the heck can be done at this point ? Is it to late ? Does the average person even care enough to make things change ? Or has so much damage been done that we can never go back to what we once had ?

reply to post by Max_TO

The more I read about this today and the more I think about it is time. It is time for a revolution. And before everyone starts talking about violence and death. Revolution does not have to be a bloody one. There have been many coupes in the world where not a shot was fired. Healthcare to me needs to be the final straw. Everyone in government needs to be removed hopefully peacefully. And then a real election needs to happen with none of this electoral college crap. It is a government for the people and by the people. Just because I live in a conservative state does not mean I want my 5 or what ever votes going to the Republican. I want my vote to go to the person I want in office. Now is the time before things get worse.

Max_TO I truly believe we can get out of this we will all need to work together somehow....

reply to post by mothershipzeta


A lot of people have tried speaking up against our government
for decades.Does anybody remember the 60's? Anti-war and
government are not new concepts.You speak out against our
government and you might be a victim of "suicide".The type
where you shoot yourself in the back 12 times!

A lot of people have served our country with pride.It isn't their fault
that our government is corrupt.I believe people, like Slayer, will
do what they can when the time comes.They don't need your approval
or permission in order to act.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Slayer i agree with everything you said...

But in my 'ignorance' - i fail to see why you don't want health care for those who cannot afford it?

You'd think in a time like this, those without money (lost jobs, homes etc) would be relying on their fellow man to assist them...?

Well the problem is I don't think alot of small businesses can afford this,going to have to lay off workers and whatnot.So other people are going to get screwed over on this bill.Just beause other people get healh care doe snot mean it is affordable or doe snot mean they will actualy get the care they realy need.However they will get insurance they never had.But the question is at what cost?This is where alot of Obama supporters and liberals seem to be clueless over real pratical common sense for paying for this..I honestly think Obama and his admin know this cannot be promised to everyone like it is.It is misleading and we all will be forced to pay for it eventually.

Well America don't want my service in the Armed forces anyway. I have too many unpaid debts.

I guess there just going to stay unpaid anyway.

The good news in all of this, no one want to steel my identity.

Well said homie. The government has gone way too far. I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine about this exact thing. The new Healthcare system. They actually tried to compare it to mandatory auto insurance if you drive a vehicle. To me, this is NO comparison whatsoever.

They are basically telling us that in order to live and breathe in this country, we now have to pay for that right. If I want to continue to live...I must pay them.

It is a sign. A sign of desperation. Something big is coming and it won't be pretty for anyone.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Mr Lizard,

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you - only slightly used, in good condition.



Seriously, though this bill is not about providing health care. I want every one to be able to get treated as much as the next Sheeple. Unfortunately, all it does is make it illegal not to HAVE health care, and makes it legal to fine you for not having it. It is an excuse to raise taxes on businesses large and small, which will eventually, along with the fines, make employer based health insurance a thing of the past, as it will become HARDER to pay for, not easier. Read the text of the bill, the politicians on both sides have their own agendas to work towards. I'm leaning towards the Republicans at the moment, after feeling like I was a somewhat Independent sort of Democrat most of my life, because I feel that the BS pulled to get this "passed" was unconscionable.

This bill simply does the government the favor of setting more legal precedent for having the power to interfere with our personal lives. What is more personal than your health? Each law passed that allows more and more interference with our lives (Patriot Act, anyone?) paves the way for an even more horrifying law to be put into existence. If I want to make a decision to make my car payment instead of buying insurance, that's my right. I don't complain if I can't go to the doctor, and have been without insurance for many years until I was hired by a company with benefits. I know someone who quite possibly broke his ankle once, but because he had no insurance he didn't go stiff a hospital by getting emergency treatment and letting the state foot the bill (they can't refuse treatment), he asked me to find him a set of crutches and a brace and he did his best to immobilize it and not put weight on it till it healed.

Once this is fully enacted over the 4-5 year period it's supposed to take, and put into place, it will be harder to get rid of than it was for them to sign it in the first place.

Don't fall for the happy-sounding line that "it's for the poor people dying in the streets" - it's to give Uncle Sam more power and to give B.O something he can claim to have accomplished. If anyone is really concerned about the poor people dying in the streets, we'd have a mandatory housing bill, where construction companies would be forced to provide shelter for the homeless (seeing as exposure is one of the main causes of death for them), and a mandatory grocery bill where people under a certain income are allotted food (in addition to food stamps), since malnutrition is another problem.

When's the last time you drove down any street in the U.S and saw people keeling over, dead? And if you HAVE seen that, when has it been due to something other than exposure, malnutrition, or possible old age or an act of violence?

Health care is important. Children should not be denied care for congenital defects o any other conditions. Reform is needed to the system, but this will not achieve what it has been touted to.