Public baptism sparks controversy

Originally posted by specialasianX
How would you like it if you walked into your local shopping centre to find

A shopping center is not a public palce, in the eyes of the law......... it is private property...........a right which at law is strickly guarded..........those attempting to pary would be arrested for trespass and suffer the consequences.......

Originally posted by gmcnulty

Originally posted by specialasianX
How would you like it if you walked into your local shopping centre to find

A shopping center is not a public palce, in the eyes of the law......... it is private property...........a right which at law is strickly guarded..........those attempting to pary would be arrested for trespass and suffer the consequences.......

you get the piont, it doesnt matter if its a shopping centre, a park, a school, a library... the point is you would be offended and uncomfortable if people of other religions were to practise their faith in such public places (and yes i know a shopping centre is private property but its still a public place where people of the public go)

Hell, I don't call the cops when someone comes to my door to discuss religion. Now that's private property.

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Originally posted by specialasianX

the point is you would be offended and uncomfortable if people of other religions were to practise their faith in such public places

Please try not to tell me how I might feel............

The constitution is a list of freedoms we enjoy...........offended and uncomfortable is not on the list...........

This is a question of law not one of sensitivities.

Please try to keep that in mind.

Originally posted by intrepid
Hell, I don't call the cops when someone comes to my door to discuss religion. Now that's private property.

But you can; the fact you don't is also your choice.

Originally posted by specialasianX
you get the piont, it doesnt matter if its a shopping centre, a park, a school, a library... the point is you would be offended and uncomfortable if people of other religions were to practise their faith in such public places (and yes i know a shopping centre is private property but its still a public place where people of the public go)

No, I wouldn't be offended. I don't let things like people worshiping in public bother me.

But your noisy little brats screaming and running around the food court while I'm trying to enjoy lunch - now that would bother me.

Originally posted by specialasianX
you get the piont, it doesnt matter if its a shopping centre, a park, a school, a library... the point is you would be offended and uncomfortable if people of other religions were to practise their faith in such public places (and yes i know a shopping centre is private property but its still a public place where people of the public go)

I see the point you're trying to make, but it's too extreme. A shopping center or bathroom is not the same as a PUBLIC park. A park is a very large place. These people were using one area to do a religious ceremony. It DOES matter if its a shopping center, school, library, park.

I wouldn't be offended if Muslims were practicing one of their ceremonies. I might be offended if I saw someone slaughtering a goat, but that's only because I'm not a big fan of blood and guts right there infront of me. Slaughtering a goat is much different than submerging a person under water, they both might be religious but slaughtering a goat involves something that would gross me out based on the bloody aspect of it. If you can't see the difference, I don't even know what else to say...

Originally posted by specialasianX
How would you like it if you walked into your local shopping centre to find a group of muslims praying on the floor of the food court, or some buddhist monks performing a ceremony in the male toilets, or a pagan sacrificing an animal...

Sheesh, first you make it seem like christians are baptizing folks in every spare speck of water there is. If this was a common occurance nationwide I think you'd have more of a point. As for me, I could give a damn if some muslims was to pray in the food court, I'm there for a little KFC.

you'd feel uncomfortable of course, so why should non-christian have to be subject to christians rites? its the same as religion in schools, people should not be subjected to it in public places...

First, religion is allowed in public schools, it just can't be organized or taught by the school. Nothing is stopping kids from sitting down and praying, or even reading a bible should they want to (at least from my understanding).

Second, what makes you think you have the right to be comfortable? Everything offends somebody. The further we go down the "offense" trail, the more obscene the laws will become and the less the freedoms of the people will be limited.

Freedom of religion, freedom of peaceful assembly, and freedom of speech protect this. Hell, even the ACLU is behind the pastor on this one.

I've been to Pagan gatherings in PUBLIC parks many of times. Noone was offended....and yes, we were practicing the religion aspect of it. Actually, more times than not, people will come over and be curious as to what we are doing and watch and then ask questions after we were finished. People SHOULD practice their religion in the public, IMO. It would stop alot of the hate towards something we know nothing about. When it is put in the public spotlight, then people actually see that we are not "devil worshipping, animal sacrificing, heathen" Pagans.

And yes, I would love to see some muslims, buddists, etc. practicing their religion in a public park. I would be the first to be asking the questions.

Originally posted by MacMerdin
I've been to Pagan gatherings in PUBLIC parks many of times. Noone was offended....and yes, we were practicing the religion aspect of it.

And yes, I would love to see some muslims, buddists, etc. practicing their religion in a public park. I would be the first to be asking the questions.

Rock on Mac. Good to hear that people are utilizing their rights.

See folk? It's a normal and Constitutionally supported practice.

Where did all the detractors go? Guess they learned their lesson.

Originally posted by specialasianX
How would you like it if you walked into your local shopping centre to find a group of muslims praying on the floor of the food court, or some buddhist monks performing a ceremony in the male toilets, or a pagan sacrificing an animal... you'd feel uncomfortable of course, so why should non-christian have to be subject to christians rites? its the same as religion in schools, people should not be subjected to it in public places...

*sigh* How many times most the truth be told before people understand?

You don't like Christian "rites"? Go to a country where the nation is Buddhist, or Mulsim or Pagan. This nation is Judeo-Christian. Don't like it? Too bad.
As far as people doing anything in the aisles or bathrooms, are you so slow that you don't see the difference between that and the forrest? Try and be a little more realistic and less biased in your analogy.

Jethro, you are a little off on accuracy. Christianity cannot be taught in school. Other religions can, and they are taken seriously. Christianity is the only religion that one may ridicule and exclude now.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Jethro, you are a little off on accuracy. Christianity cannot be taught in school. Other religions can, and they are taken seriously. Christianity is the only religion that one may ridicule and exclude now.

Perhaps in reality, but supposedly it is to be this way, not the way it is now.

The problem is, is that you can not have full rights because the minority will bitch about having their share. Instead of taking their share and being done with it (as is their right), they take their share and deny us ours because we are "shoving it down their throats"

My good goddess, you have found an issue I agree with the conservitives on!

Actually that's not unheard of but it is noteworthy.

I personally find nothing wrong with people being baptised on public lands. In America, there is freedom of religion as well as separation of church and state.

In this case, a private citizen in no way connected with the government conducted a religious act in a public place. If America is to censor him from this then the Americans must also go so far as to ban people from making the sign of the cross in front of war memorials, as it would be much the same thing.

I believe that everyone probably knows what a baptism is or at least knows it's a Chrisitan rite. I also believe it's probably one of the least offensive religious acts that I can think of. If I were to stumble into a group doing baptisms while on a hike or mountainbikeing trail, I would not be offended, I would probably quietly go around the event, much like I would if I say stumbled onto a wedding party.

I believe that there are much bigger issues of Church and State that Americans should be working on then this. Let the people have some freedom, I doubt it's hurting anyone.

Honestly if the government wanted to they could probably issue permits, much like they do for government campgrounds, and make a nice profit on it.

~Astral

Also in regards to some of the questions above about public professions of faith:

I have traveled quite a bit and seen a good many religions in my time. I've seen some very interesting professions of faith as well.

I, myself would have no problem seeing Islamic peoples doing their daily prayers in a mall food court, or anything like that. Americans should be free to practice their faith so long as it does not interfere with the rights of others, and nowhere in the US Constitution do I see a passage about freedom from seeing someone's religion. So long as they are not trying to convert you, degrading you, or harming you let them practice their faith.

One of the most widespread public displays of faith that I have seen in America is the chains that many wear around their neck. Many Christians wear a cross, Jews a Star Of David, ect. This outwardly professes one's faith in a very public way; so far as that I have seen many newspeople wear their symbol on television. I am not offended by someone showing their religion, good for them for having one lol.

~Astral

I read the responses from so many here and shake my head. Everyone has an opinion. And a feeling. And few if any know of what they speak! Gollies gee, don�t question them or all hell breaks loose. I would seem that most come here to �fight� rather then share and learn.

�Don�t tell me about my 1st Amendment rights! I know how I feel!�

At moments as this I am reminded of Mark Twain's advice; "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." Or more so, as Abba Eban so aptly said: "His ignorance is encyclopedic."

These freedoms enumerated by our Bill of Rights have been interpreted over time by court decisions. (You might read some. You might be enlightened) Further come to see the beauty of our legal process and system.)

Many problems arise, when competing �freedoms� collide, almost always guaranteeing, required court intervention to settle the issue. So I would suggest that those so inclined study up on the issues so the next time you post, to quote Thomas Brackett Reed: "They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge."

History, Court Cases, other Resources (Speech)
www.bc.edu...
www.firstamendmentcenter.org...
www.derechos.org...
kadmon.t35.com...

History, Court Cases, other Resources (Religion)
ffrf.org...
dir.yahoo.com...
www.he.net...
fact.trib.com...

First off, what's your point?

Second, I don't find it to be a conflict of rights at all. The three rights of speech, religion, and peaceful assembly coincide quite nicely in this situation.

Regardless, citations of other court cases are used to establish interpretations directly and indirectly with rights. But even if previous courts judgments conflict, this court could change that.

I think if you looked hard enough you could find a plethora to support either side. So it's really a moot point.

What! You need pictures?

I wonder if you bothered to evn process the informtion provided in the links. (I'm sure you looked at them but did anything TAKE?)

Re-process the information and get back to me.............you're demonstrating a poor understanding of the Constitution and the Court system we have in the USA.............

Plus you also seem a bit snide........I can deal with your pomposity.........but the snide??????????? Lets try to be nice , now.