Only In America Would People Complain About Paying For Healthcare

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

"Freedom' is a seriously relative concept, and I would venture to say that we live a life a lot more free than yours...our government interferes a lot less with us than yours seems to, and I do get a little freaked when visiting the States and seeing Orwellian signs telling me to stay alert for bad guys, that sort of thing.

I agree with you here, the US is seriously drifting away from what it is meant to be.

They did mine...early detection, and the $32 paid for parking at the cancer clinic.

That's awesome.. my granddad died when they couldn't catch a tumor, so I know how valuable early detection can be.

Well try to look at it this way...how many millions are the health insurance companies spending to try to sabotage the new bill...and that with your money folks...those millions could instead go to...wait...wait...here it comes...giving the poorest of you healtcare...
But..but...then the companies wont go with profit some of you say...exactly...companies or people shouldnt profit by denying other peoples wellbeing or health, thats just greedy...

I have a feeling many of the same people against the wars and everything else are also against this health care bill. But because it's not as taboo as trash-talking the war according to MSM standards then it's fair game for getting the political attention it deserves, regardless of other issues.


Government health care is a socialist program where your Nanny State takes care of you while Big Brother watches over you. Americans are wary of socialism for good reason, though this country's laws and policies are already shot to hell anyway, TPTB really keep pushing the envelope in how much they can take away from our original Constitution and the broad freedoms it allowed.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Here's the the thing. You all SO worried about paying for anything these days in the states. You would rather fund wars then have a healthy population.

This is not true at all. In fact, the majority of people in this country want the wars over and our troops home. Further, did passing healthcare reform somehow change this? Or are we committing even more money at a time when we are already strapped by said wars?

I don't recall reading anything that said spending another trillion dollars will end the war and get that money back?! Did I miss the memo??

There is MORE of a stint, or an outcry I should say, over healthcare, than TWO ILLEGAL wars started and yet finished over the past decade.

I would disagree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, one of the main reasons for Obama even getting elected was his campaign promise to "end the wars and bring our troops home".

Perhaps I am biased, I have had healthcare since the day I was born, never had to argue about it. Never really saw the cost of it as it's factored into our tax system so therefore I never had to give a doctor a cent in my wallet.

So, as long as they take the money before you even see it, it doesn't count? Also, we still have to pay for healthcare. At least those making more than 300% of the poverty level do. So we pay taxes, premiums, and pay a co-pay. See where this is going....

If I did however, I would certainly rather remove my "hollywood" budget for peace of mind when it comes to my health.

That's YOUR choice. It should have remained OUR choice. And who's budget are you talking about? The Federal Government. OK....good luck controlling their budget. If we vote no on anything it simply gets moved into a bucket called: National Security.

Now this isn't an argument for the BILL that was just passed. That bill is, well poor and that's being nice about it. It's sloppy and the whole process should have been done with more time and transparency.

Which is why some of us are opposed to the bill. I for one am not against healthcare reform, I am against THIS bill since it doesn't reform much at all but instead dumps another 30 million people into an already cash-strapped system.

This is about the fact that the American People would rather spend 1000$ dollars a year on junkfood and movies than health care. This is significant philosophical and psychological problem if you ask me.

But here is the point: I choose healthcare. Others choose junk food. Why should I have to pay ANY additional cost to cover them? Why should I have increased taxes to support their unhealthy lifestyle? Why shouldn't they, if they WANTED healthcare, either sacrifice and save to purchase it on their own, or -- heaven forbid -- get a job that actually provides them with benefits? One can apply for a job full-time with Winn-Dixie (grocery store) and receive a 401K and benefits including medical. A GED or high school diploma is all that is required. Don't have a GED? Well, the great USA provides classes AT NO COST to people in need of earning their GED. There are resources available for those that seek the help.

So my question is simple. If a good bill were introduced, one that actually made sense and helped most Americans get good coverage while preventing industry abuses, would you still whine about being FORCED to pay for it?

The government could pay for this bill in its entirety if they worked to eliminate / reduce fraud and waste. But again, they have done nothing to combat this problem.

Further, the US passed a law in 1986 guaranteeing EVERY person -- illegal immigrants included -- healthcare in a hospital in case of an emergency regardless of their insurance coverage, illegal status, OR ability to pay one penny. Because of this law, premiums sky-rocketed, hospitals went bankrupt, and quality of care was reduced due to hospitals being over-whelmed. Well, we've done nothing to fix that. Rather, we just added another 30 million to the problem. This is why many of us KNOW that our current premiums are going to increase AGAIN. Why? Because it's happened before.

So, yes, if the system wasn't fixed prior to FORCING me into something, oh yeah, I'm going to whine.

If so, WHY? It completely makes no sense to me what so ever. You should all thrilled that they are at least attempting to rectify the problem and are having a debate about it. The issue has been largely ignored for the better part of 100 years.

Actually Clinton tried it. That was -- what -- 10 years ago? Bit of an exaggeration, no?

Second, trying has been very expensive. Trying to close budget gaps. Trying to eradicate the world of terrorists. Trying to make the USA safer. Trying to fight a drug war. Let's not even start about how successful all of that trying has been to date.....

Why not get what you can out of the corrupt system now, versus having to dismantly everything later on?

Another: Get what you can out of the system....

That is a terrible philosophy and exactly the problem with our current entitlement programs. Too many people not working, not paying into the system, but sucking it dry. Why do you think social security is BROKE, Medicare is BROKE, Medicaid is BROKE, Unemployment compensation is BROKE.

I don't mean to lump all Americans together. I'm talking specifically about the Middle Class and "suburban" Americans.

Middle Class Americans pay more than any other group in the US comparing incomes. We don't have enough money to put in away in all the fun tax-free crap like the politicians do, we make more than poverty level so we cover them, and we don't make enough to pay for our homes outright, so we have a mortgage, we live too far from work, so we have to have a car, our local schools stink so a lot of people opt for private education, on and on and on. We get sucked dry because the majority of our money is liquid. We don't have enough or make enough to sock all that much away.

However, it should not go without mentioning: Middle Class Americans are also the most generous and give the most amount of money to charities than any other group when comparing dollars earned to dollars donated.

We just like to CHOOSE where it goes.

My wife works for CVS (retail pharmacy company in US) and they own their own HMO. She got a statement last week concerning the company's healthcare insurance premiums paid and the benefits paid out. Just three numbers.

There were 97.6 million dollars in premiums collected over the last fiscal year.

AETNA, the insurance carrier, earned approximately 60 million dollars of that by simply collecting the premiums and then paying out to healthcare providers.

CVS Caremark (the Health Management Organization) earned around 35 million dollars of that by handling questions and complaints for AETNA from doctors, pharmacists and premium paying customers, as well as being the "NO" delivery system when medical care could legally be refused a customer or doctor. AETNA is not directly contactable for patients or doctors. The HMO manages this contact.

1.7 million dollars of that 97.6 million in premiums was actually paid out in benefits to CVS Corporation's AETNA customers last year. This included all medical care and prescriptions that were reimbursed by the health insurance plan over the entire year. This is what the doctors, hospitals and pharmacies received of the 97.6 million that was spent by CVS employees. This does not include the millions in co-pays and deductibles that were paid by those same CVS employees.

We have a $5,000 deductible for medical and a $2,000 deductible for dental. We can't afford to spend $5,000 in one year on anything other than mortgage, food, gas and sundries. That means that because we can't afford to cover the deductible, we pay over $600 per month and have no healthcare coverage at all.

If we had a single payer system in the US, we'd pay that $600 per month as a tax, and there would be no deductibles. That would mean that our premiums (you can call them taxes if you want to, but it's just money being paid out like it is already as far as I'm concerned) would allow us access to healthcare - which, at the moment, they don't. Also, I can't imagine that the people of this country would stand for getting a 2% return on the money they'd be paying in on a government collection/disbursement system, as they seem to be fine with at the moment.

The Private Sector massages the numbers and claims a 4% profit margin, but they don't tell you that the profits are counted after they pay for everything from

*buying football stadiums, to
*paying billions each year for TV and radio ads, to
*paying out billions in executive and management salaries, to
*investing billions in corporate warfare with competitors, to
*diversification investments in domestic and overseas business ventures, to
*many, many millions in shareholder incentive junkets and government lobbying efforts, and finally, to
*billions paid to enormous law firms who work tirelessly to figure out how to keep the premiums payers from being able to legally require AETNA an/or CVS Caremark from having to pay out any more than the minimum amount of money on actual medical care.

Capitalism is great, but what we have in this nation is one business sector that has abused its right to serve its market. As it is, the estimates are that within 5 years, the aging of the population, as well as the ongoing trend toward the US becoming a low-wage service industry economy will collapse the profit margins of the healthcare insurance industry anyway. The premium rates will have forced the majority of their customers away from their plans, and with diving revenues, Wall Street will dump their stocks overnight. The massive premium rate increases that are occurring right now are indicative of the C-level management tier preparing their stock options for cashing in before the slide begins. It's a classic move to jack the stock value so that the options put more value into their personal portfolios as they exercise those options. This suggests that the C-level execs know that the end is near for their industry - profit-wise.

Then, we'll have single payer healthcare because there won't be a healthcare insurance industry, and that will be because no business venture capitalist will see insuring healthcare as a profitable venture. Then it will be left to the government to collect the money and disburse it to the medical industry.

Then let's see what the big tea-party revolutionists think about that.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by NorEaster]

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by xxcalbier

 

Actually I don't know what it costs us as stated it's all intertwined with our tax system.

It's not 100$ a month though I'm sure of that.

~Keeper

The NHS in the UK is paid through the tax system and agin is no where near $100 a month. It all depends how much you earn as to the % of tax you pay like in most countries.

would Americans preffered a sysytem like this? I can understand why some would be angry if they had to start paying higher insurance. It just seems like using capitalism to do a socialist job. which isn't really the best way of going about things.

reply to post by NorEaster


Thanks for your post. I wish I was able to synthesize all these thoughts myself in such a great style. I was thinking about same lines, and you hit the nail on the head.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


It's not so much about having to pay for health care. That's not really the point. The debate could be over chicken nuggets for all I care. The problem is that we'll be FORCED to get health care or face fines and imprisonment. I'd be equally upset if we were FORCED by our government to buy chicken nuggets. It just goes against everything this country once stood for.

It's unconstitutional to the core but I'm sure they will find some way to cover it under the "elastic clause". They always do...

S+F to your post. It's a valid point and was stated in a fantastic manner. Thanks

[edit on 23-3-2010 by M0n0lyth]

[edit on 23-3-2010 by M0n0lyth]

They are forcing us to PAY! I don't understand why don't you think this is bad. Why don't we just work for free then. Since most of us are already paying taxes for everything. Anything you do or buy is taxed. Wise up.

Am not saying American Health care is a bad thing but i don't wanna be force once more to pay for something that FATCATS in DC will get kickbacks for.

With the whole fear mongering thing, There is no fear mongering, at least i have not seen it or heard of any type. Am not scared, but what i am afraid of is if the people do let this go unchecked then congress will do anything they wish without our permission.

Why am I pissed they passed this, cause once again our government is mandating us to pay them more and more and more. Next thing you will see on the congress floor is a bill to tax us on AIR, or tax us on how many pets we own.

People who are for the Bill, keep telling me I have no campassion... No compassion?? Well here's why this bill won't work for me and a lot of other people my age. I'm 24 living in the San Francisco area, because of recent cut backs at work, I am forced to continue living with my folks. I am in generally good health and am a firm believer in alternative healing for such things. Eat right, excercise, reduce stress and for the most part health isssues shouldn't be a problem. At the moment if anything does come up, I pay cash. To add: I make approx $1000 per month and $945 of that goes to bills I already have ( I don't have insurance BTW) and dare I EVER not pay a bill. That would leave me with roughly $600 or so for the entire YEAR! That $600 wouldn't even cover the supposed fine they will get you with. Where is the compassion in that? It should have been optional thats all.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


As an American I can only speak for myself. One, I have two sons in the Army and feel we should NOT be involved in other countries issues and wars. Second the fact that our own Government probably set up 9/11 against it's own people to start a fake war is THEM.. NOT the American people. We go to work, usually making min. wage, sometimes two jobs to make ends meet and pay EVER rising taxes, and watch our Government spit in our faces.

I pay for my own healthcare. I am very happy with what I have. Do you think for even one moment that our Government has the American people's best interest at heart? HA HA HA... This healthcare they are demanding we get from them will be crap. Today I can call my doctor and see her TODAY... Pay my co-pay of $20.00 and be on my way. do I want the IRS demanding I have OBAMA's idea of healthcare or pay the price in findes and pentalties if I do not? NO!!!. No one in America is turned away from a hospital if they are sick, whether they can pay or not.

Medicare, Medicade, are there for the elderly and the poor and if our Government had not spent the money we all pay in taxes for these programs this money would still be there. Do I trust them to manage my healthcare for even one moment? I do not want them to have anything to do with my healthcare. We are not complaining about paying, we do not trust them, they take every tax dollar and spend it like it is water. Hey let me keep my own insurance, and have that as an option for those that want it, that is FREEDOM, NOT >>>> YOU WILL TAKE THIS AND SHUT UP.
That is NOT the American ideal. We are a country bound by our constitution, OBAMA could care less what it says. He would rip it up in a town hall meeting if he thought he could get away with it. I love my country, my fellow Americans, we have been lied to, attacked, and treated like dirt by our own Government.

As we Americans watch our country, our freedoms, our rights, stepped on and spit on we realize that WE THE PEOLE do not matter. So in all due respect unless you live here, are an American, you cannot understand how we are feeling right now. Do not pass judgement...

reply to post by tothetenthpower

"You would rather fund wars then have a healthy population"

With all do respect, between your pediatrician husband and your child that is sick "9 out of 12 months of the year", I don't think you have a clue about real health care.

You think this health care legislation will increase the health of the population? Every instance of chronic disease is on the rise, they will continue to rise with this health care passage. It has nothing to do with health and creating a healthy population whatsoever. It has to do with imposing a miserable failure of a system on a population while increasing profits by CONTINUING to fund declining health.

How are chronic diseases going to decline? What part of the health care reform will make that happen? The reform will simply fund outlandishly expensive drugs to perpetuate diseases without addressing their causes.

You're supporting a system that will make $10,000 weekly treatments for disease common place. But I guess you can't understand how that is the absolute wrong direction.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


hmm i see your point, very interesting

not everyone eats junk food and doesn't take care of themselves though, personally i grow a majority of my food, i live an extremely healthy lifestyle to say the least, i am not completely self sufficient, but i am sufficient enough to have everything i need except spending around 1000$ a year on new seeds, clothes or the occassional run to the store for honey, and small things that i don't produce myself...

if i don't want to pay for health care, i don't need to, i just won't get it

but since i don't want health care, they want to tax me the average amount cost so that someone else who IS wasteful and does NOT take care of themselves can have health care

am i really supposed to feel obligated to be a part of this?

YAWN! Why praytell is this on the Philosophy and Metaphysics section? I don't think that the author..gets it.(no disrespect meant) Americans eat,sleep and work...and work. Americans are controled by their government. It's an illusion. Freedom. An illusion. Americans and the majority of the rest of the industrialized world are "free range slaves" Apparently, the illusion is a highly effective one, because the honorable author of the post buys the illusion hook, line and sinker. The Americans, (we the people as they liked to be called) have little control over what their government does. Wars are foisted upon them by government sociopaths controlled by corporate sociopaths all for the sake of money, which is created out of thin air by banking sociopaths. It's insane. Wars? I'm sure some of your boys and girls are in Iraqistan too! We are all in the same boat, so get down off your high horse, wake up! Did you hear me my brothers and sisters....WAKE UP! It's time to work for a new World...one that we create. Let the machinations amuse you. Stay focused.

Love and Peace to you all!

Namaste

reply to post by tothetenthpower


This is getting ridiculous. Can we please stop calling this "health care reform" or "health care". This bill has nothing to do with health care. It only forces people to pay huge profits to the insurance industry.

There are people that can't afford healthy food and shelter. Will "health insurance" cure these people of their dis-ease?

Thank god I'm British, lead a happy life and have simply contributed with the majority of the nation through taxes toward giving us all cheaper health care and a top quality service for life at very cheap (comparitively) rates.

So often I see Americans trying to discredit British people by saying, 'your already puppets blah blah' - 'you already had you guns taken bleet bleet sheeple!!!' - 'bluh bluh you would have been talking German if it wasn't for us' - 'we are the best nation in the world snore snore' - 'europeans' which repectively makes me think 'We lead happy lives' - 'we don't want them' - 'maybe' - 'your indoctrination undoubtebly is, and seak definition of humility' - 'we're a country not a state for christs sake!'

God if you're out there, thank you. Life is good without the mass paranoia. Long live the Queen. Long live my and largely our happiness.


P.s. You're coming to see what the world has always seen, mass delusion of grandeur due possibly to brainwashing. Off to my tea and crumpets (wtf!?!? lol) I go.


[edit on 23-3-2010 by Sed Non Credo]

Originally posted by Klaatumagnum
YAWN! Why praytell is this on the Philosophy and Metaphysics section? I don't think that the author..gets it.(no disrespect meant) Americans eat,sleep and work...and work. Americans are controled by their government. It's an illusion. Freedom. An illusion. Americans and the majority of the rest of the industrialized world are "free range slaves" Apparently, the illusion is a highly effective one, because the honorable author of the post buys the illusion hook, line and sinker.

It is perhaps not the system, but the people accepting an easy escape route out of there inability to create freedom. You can move where you like can you not, visit whom or where ever, say respectfuly what you choose.

You are referring to capitalism, it is not the fault of the system that you cannot create your own way in which to leave your contraints. It is simple really, build a method which brings you a desired income and go live the life you want. Or, simply jog off to a rain forest and setup camp an live a free life. Many other options, just stop being such a quitter and stop spending your time blaming 'the system.'

Half of you 'we are slaves' whiners are simply misdirecting your own inability onto somewhere else. Blame yourself for not being able to look outside the box molded for the sheeple, create, design, envisage a way out. Anyone would think humans are done with inventing new ways to provide for themselves.

And your peace and love closing line is rediculous considering the way in which you chose to reply to an author posing questions. Study those few words a little harder, mean them instead of creating a fake ATS persona for yourself.

Now, deny ignorance... I won't.




[edit on 23-3-2010 by Sed Non Credo]

Workers in the USA have been brainwashed into believing they have to work themselves to death, get fewer paid vacations than any other industrialized nation and get nothing back from their government other than wars and big brother.

Unbridled corporate interests have systematically destroyed and demoralized the middle class and made them feel unpatriotic for expecting something back in return - in the form of health and safety, the common good, efficient, moral and cost effective services (universal health care or Medicare for all)...anything good for all the taxes we have paid, all the wars we have fought and the family members we have lost. We have shown loyalty and love for our country. We have worked our a**es off and have an extremely high rate of productivity. It's a shame so many have bought into this insane and backward notion of patriotism as dog eat dog and every man for himself.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Arcane Demesne

 

The only reason most Americans can't afford it IMO is becaus they spend money frivolously and don't budget funds to the things that matter.

Health Care should be one of those things that matters.

Like I said if you spend 1000$ a month on junk and then complain about having to pay for Healthcare, you have foot in mouth disease.

~Keeper

Hi Keeper, I see your view and point. However, I disagree with you on this one.
The things that matter to other people don't matter to me, and vice versa. I'm a grown ass man and I know what I want and do not want. The government has no law that says I can't spend 1000 dollars a month on junk. I get no legal reprimand for doing so, and when I do so, I know what i'm doing and what i'm setting myself up for. To live life with the comfort of knowing I have power over something I do.

I never asked for health care. I simply don't want it. If I get injured, well, I get injured and it's within my power to make a choice what to do after that. Maybe I'll decide to use my money to rent a clown or a comedian to make me laugh and feel better.

Point is, that 1000 dollars I would have had to spend on what I decide, well, now its taken away from me so that the government can spend it on what THEY decide. A lot of clowns and comedians are going to lose out on business now.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


The reason I am complaining about this bill is the cost, not that I am necessarily against universal health care or paying for health care.

You do realize as a percentage of GDP our health care costs are at least DOUBLE of any other industrialized countries right? This is destroying our ability to compete economically with the rest of the world.

Add to this the cost has been going up 7-10% every year and that this bill does NOTHING to try to contain these costs but instead increases them.

It's all nice and good that everyone can get coverage with this bill but our country is broke as hell and virtually nobody gets turned away if truly in need of care as it is.

Do you realize in February the Federal government brought in Revenues of 100 billion but spent 310 billion? How long do you think they can keep that up without consequences? (ANSWER - not long at all)

This bill will put more people out of work because employers cannot afford to pay the increased costs. Did you see the report Catepillar estimates this bill will increase their health care costs by 20% which equates to around 100 million dollars for them. How do you expect them to compete with that kind of an increase to their costs? This bill is not the way to get the economy back on track.

We don't live in some fantasy land where there is a free lunch.


[edit on 23-3-2010 by proximo]