Now you are FORCED to buy health insurance, what will you eliminate to afford it?

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by GreenBicMan

 

Yes but none of what you state has anything to do with insurance premium price as a function of increased demand. What you are stating is how the industry determines price point within the current market condition. The current premium for the exact same risk factor today will likely not be the same price as it was in the past or it will be in the future. Why? Because market conditions change, i.e. demand.

No it's too late now but you are figuring this like we are trading commodities. It's not about demand vs. anything. It's directly correlated to size of pool and an even spread of risk. Google it or something, but Im tired now, goodnight.

reply to post by GreenBicMan

No it's too late now but you are figuring this like we are trading commodities. It's not about demand vs. anything. It's directly correlated to size of pool and an even spread of risk. Google it or something, but Im tired now, goodnight.

It's basic economics. Google it or something. Price point of a product or service is determined in part by demand. Higher demand will result in the ability to raise the price point. Lower demand results in having to lower the price point in order to attract customers. The demand has just gone through the roof...

To prove my point was the same risk factor 5 or 10 years ago charged the same premium as they are today?

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


So what happens if you are seriously ill and cant pay the bills would you prefer to DIE than be treated dont thinks so.

Health care IS NOT FREE not even in here in the UK because its paid for by our taxes, social security benefits are paid for by another tax we pay on our earnings called National Insurance.

We dont get a choice its taken from your earnings if you take out private health insurance the amount you pay is tax is reduced but not a lot.

We have all the same bills you do.
Come over here and pay $8.17 approx a gallon for petrol/gas for your car.
Come over here and pay the dollar equivalent for electronic goods for example when PS3(60GB) was launched in USA it was $600 in the UK it was £425 the exchange rate then was about $1.80/£1 which works out at £333.
The avg national wage in the USA and UK are very close.

Avg house size in the USA about 2300 sq ft
Avg house size in the UK about half that and it costs more in dollars.

So if you think its wise to have no provision if something does go wrong with your health buy the cheapest insurance that way you can still buy almost the same amount of beer,burgers and dvd's and run up debt on your credit card.

All these "Healthcare Reform Bill" HATERS..

You should all get your facts straight before you start Dramatizing Everything.

The OP Hasn't got a clue what he's on about.

Although I am an Australian (Decended from criminals), I have tried to find out as much as I can about this new Healthcare Bill. You're all worried about nothing as far as I can see it..

The following link is from CNN and it's about the best Summary I can find.

www.cnn.com...

reply to post by Damian-007

You should all get your facts straight before you start Dramatizing Everything.

The OP Hasn't got a clue what he's on about.

What facts does the OP not have straight.

He seems pretty spot on to me.

The following link is from CNN and it's about the best Summary I can find.

Are you referring to the video or the text? Neither one is hardly a summery of the legislation. There is over 2400 pages in H.R. 3590 alone not to mention H.R. 4872. Are you really stating that legislation that size can be summarized in a page or few minute video.

BTW that video was ridiculous.

Originally posted by Damian-007
All these "Healthcare Reform Bill" HATERS..

You should all get your facts straight before you start Dramatizing Everything.

The OP Hasn't got a clue what he's on about.

Although I am an Australian (Decended from criminals), I have tried to find out as much as I can about this new Healthcare Bill. You're all worried about nothing as far as I can see it..

The following link is from CNN and it's about the best Summary I can find.

www.cnn.com...

Seems like you (sitting with a nice view from another country) are telling us that we should let the rapist finish with us before we decide whether we enjoyed it or not.

The AMERICAN PEOPLE are decidedly against this bill.

That is what really matters.

Originally posted by butcherguy


The AMERICAN PEOPLE are decidedly against this bill.

That is what really matters.

You're getting your info from FauxNews obviously. As of this morning, 49% are in favor of the bill, 40% against, 11% undecided.

Obama's favoribility ratings also jumped to 51%.

Too bad Hannity, Beck and Palin have brainwashed so many...

Originally posted by atlguy

Originally posted by butcherguy


The AMERICAN PEOPLE are decidedly against this bill.

That is what really matters.

You're getting your info from FauxNews obviously. As of this morning, 49% are in favor of the bill, 40% against, 11% undecided.

Obama's favoribility ratings also jumped to 51%.

Too bad Hannity, Beck and Palin have brainwashed so many...

I go with what I hear, and I talk to a fair amount of people every day through my JOB.

I have yet to hear from someone that likes the bill or how it was passed.

For your information, I do not listen to or watch Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CNN or any of those other rotten corporate filth spewers.

Originally posted by Cabaret Voltaire
This is the sneakiest cold war attack on America yet.
....
The Zionists have really outsmarted the dumb average American this time.
The insurance companies (no doubt led by Zionist CEOs and bankers) will measure the amount of care they doll out carefully so as to hurry you into the grave.

Okay, where to begin...

First off, the cold war's been over for what, 20 years now, you might recall catching mention of it in the news somewhere.

Second, touting 'Zionist conspiracies' says a lot about you...

Third, in case you hadn't noticed, insurance companies are already screwing people over with "death by spreadsheet" business, ie., dropping people for getting too sick, denying care for "pre-existing conditions," or just stalling paying for treatment until the patient's about to die/already dead.

The point of the bill is to stop them from doing that, among other things.

I had to go back and fix a few typos here, that's how much I'm laughing at you right now...

reply to post by Nightflyer28
I believe that the poster was using 'cold war' in the general sense, as he did not capitalize or precede with the word 'the'.

en.wikipedia.org...(general_term)

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


Nice avatar!

You have great taste, if nothing else going for you.

I think I will save all the money I don't have to pay for preventative medicine this year and use that to pay for some minimum coverage for myself.


I'll take all the money I save on not paying for preventative care next year and the year after and the year after that... and maybe take a little trip.

My man and I have a time share and I have always wanted to go to Italy.

You know the song by Prince? When doves cry?

"Look if you will at the rhetoric".....and think about this:


Who is hateful ? and who kills ? and who HAS the killing agenda ? and the industrial war machinery ? and the interest to stay at war ? and who is only happy in that THEATER ? Now they call it "theater" and I suppose they are recruiting actors ...I digress

and who is for peace ? and who uplifts ? and who has a heart ? and who saves? And who is in control of the sacred feminine right now as we speak?

and who has the sword of cain?

The tip of the spear?

You know the answer to all these things.

reply to post by harvib


Man lol..

If you would have just taken my advice in the first place

open.salon.com...

This is only a blog but he explains it just as I did but better.

I am sure you could find more of a credible explanation than a blog, but you don't have to because I am right so you will just be wasting your time as you have already wasted mine.

It is all about spreading risk over a given subset of population (or pool in this scenario). The writer of this article relates it to a casino, which in some aspects is pretty accurate.

Not a big deal, but you have no idea what you are talking about relating to demand. How many insurers are working in your region currently that your local hospital even takes right now? Maybe 2 or 3 insurers. Now you think those insurers worry about demand when they basically have cornered the market? Thats what I thought..

reply to post by GreenBicMan



All you are arguing for is a greater probability for greater profit margin. The point you are missing is that the insurance companies aren't going to cap their profit margins. They are going to set their price points in order to create the greatest profit margin. The increased demand allows them to set the price point higher.

This is why I keep trying to point out that, with all other things equal, the cost of a premium will be different today then it was in the past or will be in the future. Demand is a contributor to such fluctuations.

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


look numbnuts....make sure you know what the 'f' your talking about!!
all you broke-as* people wont be paying for anything. why? because you'll be 'subsidiszed'. that means the 'evil' govt is paying for your broke-as*!!! and the subsidy covers in a sliding scale up to 4x poverty level...thats 88k a year. after that you have to pay for it yourself. now i dont think any of the readers are at that level which means everybody reading your post will get some form of assistance. now why the idiot republican ag's wont win in court is the mandate is in the form of a tax. if you dont sign up for health insurance you'll actually be taxed. thats where that republican talking point comes from. update....the mandate came FROM the republicans and to be exact, 'the heritage foundation' a rightwing think tank.
finally, for the choice your asking...posing the question what you'll have to give up...i guess you'll have to take the old lady's mercedes and trade it in for a lexus...ain't that a bitch!!!!

reply to post by mbfromhb
Just want to clear something up:

When you say the government will be paying.....

Our government is broke.

They operate under a deficit, meaning that they spend more than they remove from our pockets every year.

They are adding 32 million new people to the 'insured' list, by starting a whole slew of new government offices and expanding the old ones.

How will this not cost more?

reply to post by mbfromhb

and the subsidy covers in a sliding scale up to 4x poverty level...thats 88k a year.

Where is this in the bill. I haven't seen any such thing. Can you point to a sec number. I'm not saying your wrong but I have tried looking for such provisions and couldn't find any.

BTW calling someone "numbnuts" is a little out of line.

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by GreenBicMan

 

All you are arguing for is a greater probability for greater profit margin. The point you are missing is that the insurance companies aren't going to cap their profit margins. They are going to set their price points in order to create the greatest profit margin. The increased demand allows them to set the price point higher.

This is why I keep trying to point out that, with all other things equal, the cost of a premium will be different today then it was in the past or will be in the future. Demand is a contributor to such fluctuations.

OK, yeah I agree with your bottom paragraph. It will be lower cost premiums *HYPOTHETICALLY* if they increase the pool sizes to huge amounts and can proportionally mitigate risk within that pool.

But that is not the way it is now because they don't have to pool whomever they do not want to. This could be called *ADVERSE SELECTION* relating from the insured's POV. They do not currently like high risk people associating with them. They know these high risk people want it and by their stats insurance companies do not want them.

But I hope prices do indeed drop because of this pool size as opposed to insurance companies being jerks and just keeping rates at a higher clip.

I can't speak as to what will exactly happen in the future with rates because that is an unknown currently. So what happens when this moral hazard is lifted from under insurance companies? No more preexisting conditions etc... So how those rates fluctuate from now to then is seriously a big unknown to me.

That should clear things up.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by GreenBicMan]

[edit on 24-3-2010 by GreenBicMan]

Originally posted by Bicent76
to what limit does my mandated health insurence pay to anyhow, what if I have aids,

and my treatment over ten years cost over 5 million dollars and I die, your trying to tell me my insurence will pay all my expenses?

Read the Bill. Because of this bill Insurance companies can no longer drop you when you reach a set limit. Perviously they could establish a limit, and once you reached that amount os medical costs, they could dump you like a hot rock. That is no longer allowed because of this bill.

Originally posted by harvib
How do you know what these individuals were therefore and if they intend to pay or not?

The data is publicly available regarding uninsured use of Emergency services. It is not minor, and is a significant factor in overall costs. Among other things I am a certfied EMT and have seen the inside of emergency rooms enough to know. It is not my profession, but the skill is valuable to me.

Also let's assume that your observations are correct. How would the elimination of overhead and resulting increased profit margin translate as a lesser premium for you? Again this will only occur if the insurance companies decided to cap their profit margin. Heck, they no longer have the concern of overpricing their product above affordability.

The bill mandates that insurance companies must make available their costs, expenditures and profits. Transparency that they have resisted up until now. It helps you choose a better insurer that is not ripping you off as much and improves competition. Where does the bill indicate increased profit margins due to lower overhead? Lowering overhead is designed to lessen premium increases. That was the whole point. I am not saying that premiums will go down, but they will not go up as fast as they were. If you had been paying for health care you would well know the massive increases in premiums over the past decade.

Actually volume in the form of demand has the opposite effect. Increased demand makes prices go up. It is a fundamental economic principle.

Average prices even in the case of group rate discounts will still be higher due to increased demand

I was referring to increased numbers of insured not increased demand. Are you saying that more people will become sick and injured because of this bill????? How does passing a bill make more people sick and injured?

All of the things mentioned could have been done through regulatory legislation without my servitude. Without me having to pay outlandish profits to a corrupt corporate industry. I don't want their services.

Cigna, is a major insurance company. In 2008, Cigna’s net profit margin was 1.51% profiting only $292 million out of $19.1 billion in revenue. Google on the other hand had a 19.39% profit margin, profiting more than $4.3 BILLION out of $21.8 BILLION in revenue. This data is publicly available and easy to find.

The problem is that there were no alternative bills mentioned. Republicans offered nothing. They never even tried to make any suggestions. They only said NO. During eight years of the Bush administration they had the power but never did a thing and costs skyrocketed. During the recent debate they simply made a mad grasp for insurance lobbiest campaign donations and now the insurance companies have them in their pockets. My guess is that you were born in a Hospital. Who paid for that. Have any kids? who pays for their health care. If you get hit by a car, who pays? The taxpayers pay and those who have insurance pay for those who do not have insurance. How is that fair?

Yes it is long a difficult to wade through. I have spent the last two days reading the bills trying to find a way out of this nonsense. You keep making these statements yet have still failed to show me where in the bill you are referring to.

I showed you the basic 18 changes in the bill that refer to these topics. The bill is long ,but there are good summaries available.



[edit on 24/3/10 by Terapin]