Hey You... Yeah, you! The one complaining about the Healthcare Reform Bill...

I don't understand why these people keep referring back to Bush. The amount of money and the amount of debt dumbama has created is 5x's the amount that Bush did, so that isn't even a ligit argument. It is funny when I read that because over and over again I hear it and these morons think it is a logical talking point when it makes them look even more nieve.

The reason why I DON'T LIKE this healthcare takeover is because I don't want the government telling me what healthcare is right FOR ME and telling me if I don't get what they say I need I will pay a fine. I mean what the hell is that????? THAT IS CALLED SOCIALISM. When the government tells you what is right for you and takes away your right to choose what YOU want, that is what is called SOCIALISM!!!!

I don't understand what these people do not get. I think they just haven't read through the bill and they are so ignorant they will believe what this government is telling them. That is insane.

reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

So opposition and disagreement is petty now?

"Death Panels!"

"They'll kill your grandparents!"

"This bill will KILL old people!"

"This bill will DESTROY this country"

"This Bill is a NAZI"


Yes...it's petty.

And that's a severe understatement.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Snarf]

The Devil is in the details of this atrocity.

Do you call this FREEDOM? I wonder why people are complaining?? This is just the tip of the iceberg. The true details have yet to be revealed to a partially hoodwinked nation.

You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).

You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

blogs.investors.com...

The backfire of this legislation will be enormous. I just wonder what service will be like when doctors begin to hang up their stethoscopes in droves.

Ok think about this logically ladies and gentlemen:

- this bill will add 35million+ people to a healthcare system that can barely handle the current amount.

- 25-33% of doctors say they will quit or retire with this bill being passed

- hospitals and care facilities are set up for the current amount of patients, and they are not allowing more to be built.

- the govt is cutting back on medicare reimbursement cause many pharmacies to not allow people to use it any longer since they lose money on those people

- 10's of billions of new taxes is being charged to pharmaceutical, medical device, and insurance companies, which will be passed down the line to customers in the form of higher costs.

So with those things being the case, what do you logically think will happen to the US healthcare system? Logically of course, quality will go down, costs will go up, healthcare will need to be rationed, etc.

That is the problem everyone. We uniformly agreed that healthcare reform was needed, but this bill just makes things worse, not better. Now the system will be even worse off, and even more reform will be needed. What a horrible bill.

As someone who lives in the UK, I find it hard to understand why America dislikes the health bill so much.

In the UK we have had free healthcare for over 50 years, Its provided to us thorugh our taxes, is the US Healthbill not the same?

Originally posted by jibeho
The Devil is in the details of this atrocity.

Do you call this FREEDOM? I wonder why people are complaining?? This is just the tip of the iceberg. The true details have yet to be revealed to a partially hoodwinked nation.

You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

YOU COULD JUST GET A PRIVATE INSURANCE INSTEAD AND NOT PAY FOR ANY SERVICES YOU DON'T REALLY NEED!! You have more choices now!

If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

Tougher regulations and control over doctors. That's a GOOD thing for consumers! The government also tests whether your car is fit for the road or not...it's done for our safety so no hillbilly runs his truck with failing breaks into school children.

If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).

It's COSMETIC surgery. Why would it be fair if your fellow Americans have to pay in full for your boobjob or facelift?? They're unnecessary procedures that aren't going to improve your health.

You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

Again, just go with a private insurance and you won't be forced to take the government plan. Plenty of options for people who live healthy and don't get sick that often. No one is FORCING you to go with the government plan!!

blogs.investors.com...

The backfire of this legislation will be enormous. I just wonder what service will be like when doctors begin to hang up their stethoscopes in droves.

Everything you posted as negatives are either lies (because you have alternatives), or good things. If those are the reasons you're against the bill, then I think you're only parroting whatever your party tells you, and not what makes sense.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

reply to post by Nurv47


Star and Flag for the post, but one particular criticism of the HCR bill really gets me... it's the "Obama ignored the wishes of the people' canard. If we'd followed the 'wishes of the people' at the time... Women still wouldn't be able to vote, we'd likely still be enslaving our fellow human beings, and we wouldn't even be able to discuss gutting Medicare because it wouldn't exist.
Geez....

reply to post by MrXYZ


Another canard: Doctors are going to hang up their stethoscopes? Baloney! The report Fox News has been using to suggest this wasn't even done.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by jam321

 

I only bring in General George because the conservatives seem to be claiming some non-existant moral high ground. I find the entire system corrupted beyond belief, both sides! I think that every politician in DC should be run out of town, and quite a few of them should be arrested and charged with treason (on both sides of the aisle). Obama, Bush, Clinton... etc. etc. etc. All the same in the end, no matter which 'Party' they claimed to be from... Just a dog and pony show for the ignorant masses...

I'm sorry if any of you took the title, or the OP itself personally, but I was pissed, and I'm sick and tired of the partisan bickering here on ATS. If anything, this should be the one place that that doesn't happen. It's hypocracy to be suspicious of your Government, but then loyal to your political party... The latter forms the former...

[edit on 22-3-2010 by JaxonRoberts]

I don't support either party and I think this bill is a huge mistake. Does that make me stupid as well? Does that make me worthy of your ridicule and chagrin? No it does not, it makes me in the majority of Americans, no matter which party they support that believe reform was needed but THIS bill was the wrong way to go about it, it was haphazzardly put together without a clear consensus, has too many loopholes for abuse and still doesn't address the issue of getting "quality" healthcare for those who cannot afford it.

So go ahead and bash away if you wish, but remember this, when the IRS comes knocking at YOUR door, shotguns in hand, ready to fine you, you supported this legislation, that could have been written much much better and much much simpler.

I DID get mad when Bush put the environment aside, launched two wars and said it was for "freedom", etc, etc.

What makes me mad, is that Obama PROMISED not to be like Bush, but time and time again does the same stuff he did.

It's not partisan to me. The parties are both shams.

Originally posted by cmaracing

Originally posted by Dock9
For those us of who are not American

would someone kindly explain, in approximate terms is fine, how much this new health care is going to cost the average American

and does it exceed what the average American was paying before ?

please

The same as one stealth bomber to begin with and in the end about 3 stealth bombers, with out cost overrides. Thats the cost of the program in all.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by cmaracing]

[edit on 22-3-2010 by cmaracing]

So I guess the obvious answer to the problem would be - build fewer stealth bombers.

Originally posted by neolxs
As someone who lives in the UK, I find it hard to understand why America dislikes the health bill so much.

In the UK we have had free healthcare for over 50 years, Its provided to us thorugh our taxes, is the US Healthbill not the same?

It's because they want their taxes to be used for something useful like bailing out criminal bankers (protecting the ones that suck them dry), the car industry (that insisted on making cars not fit for the market in the current economical situation), and - of course - killing people in other countries (in wars claimed to be helping unfortunate people in Iraq or Kuwait but not in Nigeria or Zimbabwe or wars against terror in Afghanistan by Taliban but not in Palestine by Israel).

reply to post by MrXYZ


Pull your head out of the sand long enough to see what will happen. The private insurance companies will fold due to skyrocketing premiums caused by Employers dropping private coverage. The bill does not require employers to provide coverage. Employers will drop coverage, pay a meager fine and reap the rewards of this new found savings. The rest of us will be left hanging in the breeze to pay the huge premiums of private coverage or go with the cheap govt. option. We won't have a choice.

The private insurance will never be able to compete with the federal govt.

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Pull your head out of the sand long enough to see what will happen. The private insurance companies will fold due to skyrocketing premiums caused by Employers dropping private coverage. The bill does not require employers to provide coverage. Employers will drop coverage, pay a meager fine and reap the rewards of this new found savings. The rest of us will be left hanging in the breeze to pay the huge premiums of private coverage or go with the cheap govt. option. We won't have a choice.

The private insurance will never be able to compete with the federal govt.

Employers weren't forced to provide coverage in the past either!! That's not something new that will induce drastic changes. Also, skyrocketing premiums of private insurance companies are economic nonsense. If the government option really is cheaper, they will have to adapt and if anything, cut prices too...or everyone will move to the government option if it's really cheaper.

After the bill is introduced, you will have in fact MORE choices than before, NOT less as you claim. You can chose the government option, or go with private insurance.

Fact is, it puts more control on insurance companies, doctors, and puts downward pressure on premiums since the private insurance companies now have to compete with the government. You claim that'll increase premiums of private insurance companies, that's bollox! If you have a convenience store and your competitor lowers his prices, what's your move? Do you increase prices (as you claim) or lower them? It's a total economic no brainer!

The bill will help a lot of people. It might not be perfect, but it's a good thing for America as a whole...better than the status quo for sure.

The whole "premiums will skyrock" is nothing but a lie.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Pull your head out of the sand long enough to see what will happen. The private insurance companies will fold due to skyrocketing premiums caused by Employers dropping private coverage. The bill does not require employers to provide coverage. Employers will drop coverage, pay a meager fine and reap the rewards of this new found savings. The rest of us will be left hanging in the breeze to pay the huge premiums of private coverage or go with the cheap govt. option. We won't have a choice.

The private insurance will never be able to compete with the federal govt.

Employers weren't forced to provide coverage in the past either!! That's not something new that will induce drastic changes. Also, skyrocketing premiums of private insurance companies are economic nonsense. If the government option really is cheaper, they will have to adapt and if anything, cut prices too...or everyone will move to the government option if it's really cheaper.

After the bill is introduced, you will have in fact MORE choices than before, NOT less as you claim. You can chose the government option, or go with private insurance.

Fact is, it puts more control on insurance companies, doctors, and puts downward pressure on premiums since the private insurance companies now have to compete with the government. You claim that'll increase premiums of private insurance companies, that's bollox! If you have a convenience store and your competitor lowers his prices, what's your move? Do you increase prices (as you claim) or lower them? It's a total economic no brainer!

The bill will help a lot of people. It might not be perfect, but it's a good thing for America as a whole...better than the status quo for sure.

The whole "premiums will skyrock" is nothing but a lie.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

There is no govt option my friend. And there is no choice for employers other than to get insurance or pay a $2000 fine per employee and then they have to buy their own. Many businesses will just pay the fine, some will hire less so they can afford the fines or the insurance. But there is not more choice now. There is more cost all the way around. Pretty simple. Healthcare needed reform badly, but this bill is sooooo bad that it needs even more reform now. Healthcare in the US is even more screwed up now.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

The whole "premiums will skyrock" is nothing but a lie.

Premiums will increase, however the government is going to offset these in the beginng with vouchers, so you won't notice...right away.

If you compare the projections for medicare 10, 20, 30 years ago(take your pick) skyrocket is an apt metaphor for the actual increase in cost compared to the projected.

Originally posted by Nurv47
It's quite simple. Obama ignored the wishes of the majority of the American people

I keep hearing this TALKING POINT bantied about as some sort of fact without anything backing it up...

First off... the HR passed it with a majority

If you want to say that the states being represented didn't represent a majority of Americans, then I expect that you believe GwB's 2000 election was in error as well?

Funny how something passes with a majority in the PEOPLES HOUSE and yet somehow people still believe that the majority is against this...

*smh*

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Nurv47
It's quite simple. Obama ignored the wishes of the majority of the American people

I keep hearing this TALKING POINT bantied about as some sort of fact without anything backing it up...

First off... the HR passed it with a majority

If you want to say that the states being represented didn't represent a majority of Americans, then I expect that you believe GwB's 2000 election was in error as well?

Funny how something passes with a majority in the PEOPLES HOUSE and yet somehow people still believe that the majority is against this...

*smh*

I admire your positive spin. However, The HOUSE no longer belongs to the PEOPLE. If it did, this legislation would not have passed. The votes were coerced into an eventual majority of Representatives and not the majority of Americans.

You should be saving a few dollars in this whole thing though. You no longer have to be guilted into provided benefits for your workers. In four years you can cut them lose.

Gotta love the guys who say "the majority is against this reform" without showing any sort of strong backup.