What are thoughts? What creates self-awareness, what is it? What's the threshold of sentience?, page 1

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Topic started on 21-3-2010 @ 11:02 AM by CHA0S

Ahoy-hoy fellow ATSers. I've just had a rather long and in depth discussion with a friend. We covered various topics including the nature consciousness/self-awareness, A.I. and what really makes humans different from the rest of the life on Earth, why are we so special, do we have self-awareness and free-will, or are we really robots following genetic code with the illusion of free-will? If we really are self-aware, what makes us self-aware? Our thoughts, dreams, emotions, memories, life experiences? I think therefore I am? But what are thoughts, how can we define them? When did we become self-aware, was there a point in time? Is it a result of evolution, and did mother nature design a self-aware thinking machine merely by chance through a process of mutation and survival of the fittest? Is it possible basic organisms such as fleas have thoughts, are they self-aware? Are they reacting to their external environment based on the electrical signals sent to their brain via sensory intake equipment (just like I could program a robot to dodge objects etc via sensory equipment and an on board computer - i.e. brain), or are these impulses/instincts the result of sentience and conscious thought? Can we completely understand the human brain and how it generates sentience?

EDIT: Added a few more points we discussed. And another.

[edit on 21/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 11:50 AM by jokei

True to form, I'm feeling pretty horrible for a Sunday, so I'm going to keep this brief - although I've thought about this in depth many times. Please excuse my attempt to be succinct.

I'd say self-awareness (to a degree) would correlate to self-preservation, with the example of a computer or robot perhaps, that it would seek to not be deactivated, to preserve its "life".

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 11:50 AM by tempest501

Now that is an epic and worthy question.

Some would say that people are just a fancy computer and our thoughts are just electrical impulses which I guess they are to a certain point but whats causes the infinite number of electrical impulse that cause each individual thought. Its a real mind melt.

Its like the age old fate question. I guess there one and the same actually.

Is free will an illusion, not that really is a question.

In some science circles they believe that for every choice we make there is an opposite one being made in another dimension. If thats true is this free will as no matter what we pick the opposite happens anyway. Are we just an advanced simulation? A fancy hologram on some guys super computer in the future lol who knows.

Good thread

peace

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 11:52 AM by CHA0S

reply to post by jokei

I'd say self-awareness (to a degree) would correlate to self-preservation, with the example of a computer or robot perhaps, that it would seek to not be deactivated, to preserve its "life".

I don't agree. The mere process of evolution involves the weaker dying out, and the strong surviving...therefore, for any species to survive more than 2 minutes, it needs to have a reproduction function, and programming that tells it to reproduce...obviously the ones who have bad reproduction genetics will die out...thus, this self-preservation trait is in no way vindictive of self-awareness...

[edit on 21/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:14 PM by Nostradumbass

You should check out my thread.

In my opinion, and in short:
The brain is what keeps us alive, it's what keeps us conscience and generating energy. And out 5 senses are what powers our brains perception of things.

In order for something to be living we must:
1. Reproduce with free will (which would mean we are not "robots")

2. Our brains process positive/negative/neutral energy as energy that is good/bad/or irrelavent for the universal need to thrive/gain energy (atoms all want to absorb as many electrons/ protons as possible, blackholes want to absorb all spaces energy, we all want to be known by as many people as possible and have some sort of control over them).

3. We must be able to positively or negatively effect the power above us on our free will (for humans that would be our Earth). Because if the Earth dies- we die.

4. We must contain at least one sensory organ to give us the illusion of reality (time-space)...which is why plants are not the same thing as bears.

5. And we much obviously contain cells, because cells are the ever evolving substance inside that allows us to grow, evolve, as a species- and human being.

Time just goes on , and as time goes on...everything gets more complicated , it's why the universe continues to grow infinitely.

And you ask if fleas have thoughts? Well in a sense, we are like fleas. But fleas do not live in our reality (for the reasons I mentioned above)

It's all in perception. We will always view things from our eyes, and humans are most closely related to us...so we listen to what they say, then from there we have animals, and plants, etc....it all plays a role. And it's role is to not all be positive influences on humans...it's to keep the world of positive/negative/neutral charges balanced on earth, so the earth can keep turning.

If we negatively affect the Earths atmosphere enough, then we will die. But if we positively effect it, then we positively effect everything that is negative to us(such as the growth of cancer, bacteria, rodents).

It's hard to see the circle we live in, but that's why ancient philosophers seem like they were so ahead of their time. They lived in a time with much less complication, and therefore could connect the circle together easier than us. They didn't have 1,000,000 words in the dictionary with 1,000,000 meanings and 1,000,000 civilizations with different languages.

Math(When-future)-Science(How)-History(What-past))-Philosophy(Why)-- It's all relevant to our survival, but it's the way to simplest ways to categorize thing's.

I could ramble forever, but the longer my message gets, the more complicated it gets and the less people will take time to read it or understand it....hopefully that makes a little sense.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by Nostradumbass]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:29 PM by CHA0S

reply to post by Nostradumbass

I agree with a lot of what you say...you make some good points...my basic opinion is the following:

I believe that we can and will understand the human brain and we will build "thinking machines" that have thoughts and dreams, and emotions plus artistic, creative and original abilities...I don't believe everything is conscious, but is part of, and contains other sentient/conscious beings. I believe in a fractal universe where this is possible. I believe humans became self-aware through a process of evolution and at some stage, the human brain became so complex in its design and computational abilities, that it gained self-awareness, although I obviously wont be able to describe to you the exact mechanism which enables sentience, because I truly have no idea, but it will be discovered and understood...and we will be able to replicate the human brain in it's entirety, sentience and all.

Two words are important: INFORMATION-COMPUTATION. This IMO, is the key to consciousness, and without a structured system with some inherit complexity, you can't even begin to create consciousness. If you crush the brain or main information processing unit of any organism it will surely die, however a self-aware spirit may live on as a more fundamental form of energy, which still possesses the ability to compute information. I believe most basic organisms on Earth haven't reached a point where they require self-awareness, and they are essentially organic robots with no free-will, but it works for them...however, I don't believe humans are the only species on Earth that posses a form of self-awareness...and eventually, most life-forms on Earth will evolve into sentient beings with advanced methods of communication (possibly spoken language) and sophisticated societies.

[edit on 21/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:36 PM by KrypticCriminal

To me its memory which makes us self aware. We have risen to become the top dog on Earth. Not because we are anything special, its basicaly trial and error.

We remember what works and what does'nt and adapt accordingly. The only reason we feel like we are who we are is because of memorys. We recognize the world around us by memory. Then once we form an understanding of it. We then place ourselves within it and so become conciouse.

Needless to say theres probably a whole lot more going on around us that we are not aware of. So in those realitys we dont exist. In those realitys we are not conciouse or self aware.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:43 PM by Nostradumbass

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Nostradumbass

I agree with a lot of what you say...you make some good points...my basic opinion is the following:

I believe that we can and will understand the human brain and we will build "thinking machines" that have thoughts and dreams, and emotions plus artistic, creative and original abilities...I don't believe everything is conscious, but is part of, and contains other sentient/conscious beings. I believe in a fractal universe where this is possible. I believe humans became self-aware through a process of evolution and at some stage, the human brain became so complex in its design and computational abilities, that it gained self-awareness, although I obviously wont be able to describe to you the exact mechanism which enables sentience, because I truly have no idea, but it will be discovered and understood...and we will be able to replicate the human brain in it's entirety, sentience and all.

Two words are important: INFORMATION-COMPUTATION. This IMO, is the key to consciousness, and without a structured system with some inherit complexity, you can't even begin to create consciousness. If you crush the brain or main information processing unit of any organism it will surely die, however a self-aware spirit may live on as a more fundamental form of energy, which still possesses the ability to compute information. I believe most basic organisms on Earth haven't reached a point where they require self-awareness, and they are essentially organic robots with no free-will, but it works for them...however, I don't believe humans are the only species on Earth that posses a form of self-awareness...and eventually, most life-forms on Earth will evolve into sentient beings with advanced methods of communication (possibly spoken language) and sophisticated societies.

[edit on 21/3/10 by CHA0S]

Right. As long as a species, or even a single organism continues to live...it will grow. That is what evolution is. I firmly believe that if we practice to hold our breath long enough underwater, and we have a kid, they will possess the same ability with a little work. How do you think people became more athletic than others?

The way to produce a great offspring is to make yourself as good as you can.

And you say information-compution... I say simply, a "Processor". It's the same thing, but in theory, they are just both transmitting charges of things however they please. Much how we can look at anything as either positive/negative/ or neutral. There is a set standard, but we don't have to abide by it. We choose to.

That's what free will. And I'm sorry to say, every species below us does not have free-will as much as we do...because we reign over them. However apes hold more free will than a slug, because they are smarter-more advanced.

Everything has free-will to an extent, we are just conscious and own everything on Earth...except Earth itself.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:46 PM by CHA0S

reply to post by KrypticCriminal

To me its memory which makes us self aware. We have risen to become the top dog on Earth. Not because we are anything special, its basicaly trial and error.

Look deeper, and you'll see memory hasn't got much to do with it. I could put a harddrive or RAM in a robot and it could collect and remember data. Furthermore, most animals on Earth have some degree of memory. However, they lack the ability to communicate and share that information...they couldn't even think about sharing if they aren't self-aware and don't have thoughts...

However, humans have quite an advanced society and language which enables us to store, share and access all the information we could ever want (except the really good stuff)...because we are self-aware beings, we have the ability to think and determine that storing and studying knowledge was very important for the advancement of a society...a non-sentient species is not likely to do such a thing...

EDIT: I've gotta go for a while, I'll check back on the thread in a while.

[edit on 21/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:53 PM by Xcalibur254

reply to post by CHA0S

My neuroscience professor has an interesting theory on what creates consciousness and makes us self-aware. He proposes that consciousness is an emergent property of language. That because of language we are able to frame our experiences in relation to ourselves, which is essentially without self-awareness is. However, it may be that consciousness was not immediately produced with the appearance of language. If you read older texts, like those of Homer, it becomes interesting to note that nothing is framed in the first person and that the only times the speech comes close to being self-referential is in regards to biological functions. If anyone is interested in this theory, check out The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes.

Then here are people like Antonio Damasio and Joseph LeDoux who make convincing arguments that emotion is what causes consciousness to exist. They each offer a different view on how this occurs so I won't go too in depth, but they are definitely worth reading if you are interested in consciousness being an emergent property of the brain.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 12:55 PM by KrypticCriminal

reply to post by CHA0S

I disagree.

Animals do have the ability to communicate and are self aware. I bet if they had some of the evolutionary attributes we have ei. opposable thumbs. They would build there own complex societys over time. If allowed to do so.

Not only do they have senses as we do, but in many cases they are far more advanced. As for putting RAM in a robot and it remebering and collecting data. Sorry but it would only collect the data that you programmed it to collect. So you cant even make a comparison there.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 01:06 PM by Nostradumbass

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by CHA0S

My neuroscience professor has an interesting theory on what creates consciousness and makes us self-aware. He proposes that consciousness is an emergent property of language. That because of language we are able to frame our experiences in relation to ourselves, which is essentially without self-awareness is. However, it may be that consciousness was not immediately produced with the appearance of language. If you read older texts, like those of Homer, it becomes interesting to note that nothing is framed in the first person and that the only times the speech comes close to being self-referential is in regards to biological functions. If anyone is interested in this theory, check out The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes.

Then here are people like Antonio Damasio and Joseph LeDoux who make convincing arguments that emotion is what causes consciousness to exist. They each offer a different view on how this occurs so I won't go too in depth, but they are definitely worth reading if you are interested in consciousness being an emergent property of the brain.

No sir. Everything in the universe all has the fundemental need to thrive.

When something positively or negatively effects us in a certain way, that creates an emotion. And language stems from this emotion.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 01:23 PM by v01i0

CHAOS,

Good quostiens! Obviously there are some good points both in your OP and in following posts, but I gonna reply the OP first with my two cents.

We humans are aware. By this I mean, that we are capable of observe our actions, right? So far we all can agree? But there is some glitch in our awerness that we cannot really choose what to do, freely and without a predefined motif. Now there's a bandwagon of people that would disagree and say: "We have free will!" But I disagree. We are driven by our natural insticts, basic needs as Maslow argued. We may have freedom of choice though.

Nevertheless, as said we can observe: "I just did this.", "I just did that." and "WTF I just did?". But how much can we really affect our initial actions? It is not within bounds of absolute freedom (regarding our actions). We still have to submit to our biological needs, insticts and urges.

But as we can observe, it seem obvious that we observe by thought. What is thought then? I doubt that I can answer it from this seat, but it seems to be something distinct to instinct. Thought is not merely a process based solely on memory either. Neither it isn't of language alone, although we often think with "words". Maybe with extending exlusion far enough, we can arrive to the point that we can tell what thought is not, but I am unsure whether after that we would still be any wiser?

Maybe thought requires both memory and language, and of course certain type of electromagnetic (perhaps?) activity in our brains. The last perhaps is the most important factor contributing to capability to think. But it is not that alone either, as animals has these as well. Well, of course we are not that distinct to animals. Maybe thought it just more advanced form memory and language? But somehow that seems insuffient as an explanation.

We have to capable of remembrance in order to learn, and in a manner of petitio principii, learning requires memory. I came to this because in order to be self-aware, we have to be able to remember and learn, otherwise we wouldn't be able to think and to be conscious about ourselves, remember ourselves. But nevertheless we might be able to observe.

So maybe we can make a formula:

T = R + L + S

Where T is thought, R is remembrance, L is learning and S is self-awarness. All this of course presupposes certain type of biological and neurophysical structure. We have to be able to be sentient - meaning that we must have sensory organs. We have to be able to remember and learn in order to be aware. Where comes the language then? Does thought preceed language or other way around?

Meh, this didn't take me anywhere actually.

-v

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 01:24 PM by jokei

reply to post by CHA0S

I'll dispute that.

Just because something can reproduce effectively, doesn't mean that it's self-aware, look at viruses, fungus etc.

Just because I might not be good at reproduction does not mean I am not self-aware, I might just be sterile.

I still think I'm right

my rightness might also be accepting of other ideas though.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 01:54 PM by EnlightenUp

reply to post by CHA0S

I'll let you in on some secrets:

There is nothing terribly special about us
Self-awareness itself is not "generated".
Self-awareness is illusory.
You aren't aware of anything, there is no "you" watching.
Qualia exist without material cause and are not created.
Qualia are the witness, and are themselves (thus noone watching).
Material processes select it, not create it. It is more accurate to reverse things to say that material witnesses qualia.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 02:11 PM by v01i0

reply to post by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
reply to post by CHA0S

I'll let you in on some secrets:

There is nothing terribly special about us

Self-awareness itself is not "generated".

Self-awareness is illusory.

You aren't aware of anything, there is no "you" watching.

Qualia exist without material cause and are not created.

Qualia are the witness, and are themselves (thus noone watching).

Material processes select it, not create it. It is more accurate to reverse things to say that material witnesses qualia.

I don't know about you, but my experiences are that I am watching my actions. Now I am typing, and I am aware of that. Soon I'll be posting and I am aware of that as well. Care to explain what you mean or above can be dismissed as irrelevant?

-v

[edit on 21-3-2010 by v01i0]

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 02:12 PM by imans

reply to post by v01i0

self aware is not being aware of your actions, this is an indirect fact, but self awareness mean that you are aware being fed
you have to dissociate the two to understand the combination being one

you wake up to life fortunately happy seeing a nice young body fed with smiling parents around and family neighborhood and friends, your awareness is independant of that condition to yourself life
that is why witnessing truths of those fake conditions should kill everyone and especially gods, awareness is existence truth it cant be otherwise, well logically but gods egos is huge and insist to say that them first

you cannot be self aware if the awareness is about what you do, you cant have any objective perspective then about yourself since you would be when you do

thoughts are related to self conditions too as the static existence rejecting positive involvements with realities to not limit oneself, and get the reward of self condition by thoughts skills giving the sense of free infinite one source

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 02:17 PM by v01i0

reply to post by imans

I couldn't understand half of what you said. But that is probably my fault. I am also unsure what is an 'indirect fact'?

I am perfectly aware of the fact that I am observing my actions, thus being the observer and the observed.

-v

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 02:24 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by CHA0S

www.youtube.com...

Watch this video.

Thoughts come from electromagnetic fields. Thoughts are left brain dominant. Music is right brain dominant -- by meditation we activate the right brain and through enough training then the pineal gland is activated which is a piezoelectric transducer of electromagnetic energy -- telepathy, telekinesis, etc.

Enjoy. Check out springforestqigong.com... if you want to do this on your own.

reply posted on 21-3-2010 @ 02:32 PM by imans

reply to post by v01i0

if existing is being aware freely without doing anything
and self is being positive at a point as real in living reality

then awareness of yourself moves is an undirect fact result of existing conditions

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