The Great Lie is John 3:16

A good Gnostic way to look at John 3:16 is to see it from the perspective of the inner Christos within all.
The world of early Christianity was quite diverse with many sects. This includes the views of Jesus himself. The heart of Gnostic Christianity and Gnostic tradition in general is to know thyself and become the Christos your true nature. Remembrance of who you truly are for it has been forgotten.
All share in a direct connection to God and so ones salvation is not dependent on books, rituals, men, buildings, etc but rather through direct experience of the Gnosis. Books, rituals and what not are meant to be guides and nothing more for when they become more they become idols.
Gnostics also believed the Truth could be found in many sources and not just one source but most importantly, the Truth is within.
As the Orthodox began to gain power, sects with different views began to be heavily persecuted. Countless Christian and Non-Christian texts were surpressed and destroyed as well as those who embraced such works and anything contrary to the growing Orthodox Church.
An famouse later example would be the Cathars who rose in Europe later on. They paided a heavy price for their 'Heresy' as did any other who were considered 'Heretics'.
By the time a canon was agreed onto, countless texts had been omited. And for the role of women? That had been greatly daminished. In sects like the Gnostics, women shared equal roles and were greatly responsible for the propagation of the Christian message. Infact, in many of the worlds great religions in their early stages, women were a major driving force before their role in those religions were daminished. Examples of this can be seen in Buddhism and Islam.

reply to post by phishna


A judging God is not sending everyone to hell. The only ones that are going to hell are the ones that reject God. God doesn't have to let anyone into His heaven that hate and disbelieve Him. So they go to hell because they themselves send themselves there.

reply to post by bwinwright


Jesus is GOD in human form, a somewhat clone per say so he can be represented in two places at once. There are many Elohim IE: Divine spirits, Lesser sons of GOD and Gods themselves but all answer to Elohim GOD HIMSELF. GOD did not say their are not any other gods, He said there are none like him, none equal to him and not to worship or idolize these Gods.

This religious structure is the backdrop to the ancient Jewish acceptance of two powers in heaven (Segal). Since both powers were believed to be good, the belief does not reflect Zoroastrian influence. The belief in two powers in heaven was a contributing factor in the advent of what scholars have termed “binitarian monotheism” in Second Temple period Judaism (Hurtado, “Binitarian”), which in turn contributes to our understanding of the advent of New Testament Christology. This contextualizes the description of Jesus as the monogene4s (“unique”; Grudem, 1233ff.) son of God in the New Testament. Since the Hebrew Bible is clear that there are other sons of God (be5ne< [ha])e4lo4h|

Have fun.

If the best you can do is post links to venomous, anti-Catholic web sites, then that says a lot about your lack of ability to debate and defend your ideas.

The links, by the way, or full of rabid distortions and gross over-simplifications of Catholic theology.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

The Catholic church is not Christianity, but a religion that has as part of it's theology, aspects of Christianity

What evidence do you have that the Catholic Church is not Christianity?

Roman Catholicism is the foundation of all Christianity, and the largest Christian denomination by far.

Sects and offshoots of the Catholic Church are considered "Christian", I suppose, but no more so "Christian" than the Mother Church (Roman Catholicism).

Christianity was around before the Catholic church. The Catholic church is as you say, a sect of Christianity, but not Christianity itself.

Offshoots, as you call them, are those who decided to actually read the Bible and said "Whoa !" They discovered that the teachings of the Catholic church didn't line up and so they left. This is not to say that Catholics are bad people because many are not. But they are also not the mother church either.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Just show us the line that clearly states the serpent was Satan.

Revelation 12 v9 John 5 v28 and 29 clearly states that Satan is the serpent.

Revelation 20 v2 again calls Satan the old serpent.

The serpent told the first lie. Genesis 3 v4 and 5

The Devil is called the father of the lie. John 8 v44

The first prophesy Genesis 3 v15 "He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel". Romans 16 v20 shows Satan will be crushed under your feet.













[edit on 21-3-2010 by dusty1]

lol, the whole point of the article goes way over the christians brainwashed beliefs, no more cruelty i feel bad for you , you choose to live in delusion that you cannot ever find the answers for everything,

I grew up in church , i have seen it all there, debated with many pastors, found ridiculous simplistic , childish answers are given all the time, backed up by verses from all over the place that have nothing to do with the questions proposed.

You will soon see that your religion has most totally compromised your ability to grow, and when it does my goodness will your mind feel open to possibility,
and your fears of judgement will subside.

If you cannot see that the arguments you present as believing your god wishes you to worship Jesus and accept it as some way into a heaven place are found in a book that was created too control you , i realize you have many more lifetimes to go....

Look inwardly, and not to books that ACTUALLY tell you that its not been messed with, when in fact everyone knows that it has, unless you are of true blind faith.

Realize the proficiency of the churchs illusion as some, "house of god" when in fact it only allows you a small sliver of the power offered to all, how sad that people dont know how much more there is, but do not even realize they are blinded magnificently and are only accessing a small fraction of power through prayer focused at some individual , you call GOD.

Christianity was around before the Catholic church.

No. If you studied the history of the Catholic Church - from a Catholic perspective, mind you - you would know that the Church was founded when the soldier pierced the side of Jesus as he was on the cross. That was the founding moment of the Catholic Church according to Catholic theology. Peter was the first leader after Jesus, and Catholics consider him as the first "Pope". There was no "prior" Christianity.

The Catholic church is as you say, a sect of Christianity, but not Christianity itself.

The Catholic Church is the largest denomination of Christianity on the planet, as well as the founding denomination of all of Christianity.

Offshoots, as you call them, are those who decided to actually read the Bible and said "Whoa !" They discovered that the teachings of the Catholic church didn't line up and so they left. This is not to say that Catholics are bad people because many are not. But they are also not the mother church either.

The Catholic Church is and will always remain the one, true Mother Church for all of Christianity. Hence, we see Anglicans converting en masse to the Catholic Church in our modern times. The Anglicans aren't converting to Baptist, Methodist, or any other denomination. They are converting to the Mother Church.

The Catholic Church teachings, as promulgated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, very much line up with the Bible. Have you actually read the Catechism? Do you know what it says?

People left the Church at various times for different reasons. Mostly because they sought their own political power structure. Hence, you have rebels such as Calvin and Luther that started their own denominations. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church remains, strong as ever. And, this, despite all of the countless attacks by Satan from without, and even from within. The Church remains, and will always remain. It will forever stand.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
According to whom was it Satan?

Nope. I read "serpent" over and over again and not one mention of it being Satan. That would be why I assume it was just a talking snake. I look forward to you educating me on this.

Rev 12:7-9. The ancient serpent aka Satan.

Read a quote the other day: "All of us want to go to heaven, but no one wants to die." Not that it has anything to do with the OP, just had to make a second line.

*Yeah, dusty1, spot on. You beat me to it*

[edit on 3/21/2010 by qonone]

Realize the proficiency of the churchs illusion as some, "house of god" when in fact it only allows you a small sliver of the power offered to all, how sad that people dont know how much more there is, but do not even realize they are blinded magnificently and are only accessing a small fraction of power through prayer focused at some individual , you call GOD.

Satan himself couldn't have blasphemed God any better.

Man as the center of the universe, right? Man has the power, not God?

I will choose a God-centered life over a godless atheism any day of the week, believe me.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by manna2

sure is a lot of talking for a strawman arg.
Tell me which word you interpret as serpent please.

Not sure what strawman you are talking about unless you mean God.

Anyway, the word that I interpret as serpent is...

drum roll please...


tsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss...

SERPENT!

I know it is hard to tell since I already stated that it clearly says "serpent" several times but never once says that it is Satan.

I hope that helps.

really, is that the Aramaic word, or your interpretation in doing your part in creating myths?
I am guessing you are one of those that claim that the Bible is a construct after years of chronological interpretations, one after the other.

No, give me the word that is INTERPRETED into serpent please...the Genesis application...and is the apple found there too? I believe this is key in pointing out you are more concerned in debating your interpretation and not in seeking truth, whatever it may be.
Digt hard, so far you aren't a reputable source to be declaring another source to be a fraud as I see nothing but strawman args.

yeah, the serpent arg takes this a bit off topic so I will cut to the chase. This thread is creating more traditions of man, more myths.
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

the Bible does not call it a snake, nor is there an apple.
I guess this is a result of the dumbing down in these recent generations as core languages give way to interpretations as having the final say in this outdated debate.
No historical evidence of Constantine haveing any input into canon, as is the same for Nachash meaning snake, or an apple being the cause of the fall of man.
These are myths perpetuated by man to man to this very day irregardless of history and facts.
Dan Brown is not a historian and the Da Vinci codes are not scripture. Zeitgeist is propoganda using distortions and half truths and yet we have debates like this as if we are to accept the OP opinion as truth and not simply addressing the texts themselves. In the past, that is what was done.
A thorough investigation into the texts, not a debate about an interpretation of a book made into a movie about an interpretation of a text in opposition of the text in question.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by manna2]

Originally posted by bwinwright
cThe Great Lie is John 3:16


This same lie about the Pope being the most divine of all men and the Catholic Church being the ONLY path to God and Heaven is still being sold by the Catholic Church today. They continue to threaten eternal damnation in Hell for anyone who rejects this horrendous lie.

Actually, the Church accepts tolerance and suggests that there does not need to be a true religion, since all of God's children will get to heaven no matter what.

The Church has tried the whole better PR thing. Do you really think they would suggest that if you aren't Catholic, you aren't getting into heaven TODAY?

focus on the main topic.
For what I understand , Constantine has sort of "created" the whole christian religion back in 313. Just tell me one thing OP, how is that possible that the Roman empire has persecuted christians almost 2 centuries before Constantine was even born ?
the catacumbs of Rome, the paintings and the texts from those times tell us that christians existed way before Constantine was even born.

now you guys can resume the "serpent" argument

[edit on 21/3/10 by MattMulder]

John3:16 is not a lie... for something that seems so rediculous or untrue, you sure are expending a lot of energy and thought.

You quote a lot of scripture...have you ever seen The Andy Griffith Show, and Deputy Barney Fife hauls in a grand mother on some minor charge and Andy scolds him..."You know the law, but you're missing the meaning of the law." Well, you know a lot of scripture, but you're missing the meaning of the scripture.

Jesus' birth, death, resurrection were all foretold...throughout the Old Testament, even the Book of Enoch if you source it. His crucifiction is foretold way back in Exodus with the sacrificing of the lamb's blood at Passover.

The lamb, a perfect lamb, is to be taken in, cleaned about 4 days before the sacrifice, its feet are not to touch the ground, it will be washed... on the eve before the scarifice..there is to be a celebration dinner, and then before the Passover, the lamb is to be sacrificed...the blood posted on the door frame to the left and right and above.

Likewise, Jesus entered Jerusalem, palms placed at his feet ,,,never touching the ground, He was washed by Mary Magdelene with frankinsence, on the night before the sacrifice and crucifixian, Jesus had the Last Supper...the sacrificial celebratory dinner...then on the day before Passover...as the Lamb of God, He was slain. His blood on the cross...to the left and right...hands pierced...and above...crown of thorns....His blood to keep death away...eternal death.

If what you believe is true, then we have lost nothing....we have lived a good life, and fought the good fight. The worst someone can say about me as a Christian is I tried to be a good father, husband, neighbor, friend, manager and employer...a good American. And if there is nothing after my passing...so be it.

However, what if we as Christians are right, and you are wrong...

Again, I read how Christianity controls me...again I ask how, What do I do that I wouldn't do if I didn't believe...Cheat on my wife...on my taxes. Abandon my kids, lie, cheat, steal, rape and plunder... I give to charitable causes... and people I don't even know...to help them. I help people at various times of year, we had a needy family over at Xmas...had a great time too. We have built homes in Honduras.... donated 2 hogs to make sausage and had a pancake sale to raise money for the supplies. We have cut wood for families with no heat...is that the control you speak of...be graciuos and charitable. Count me in, brother. Who do we help next...

Again, if what Christians believe is a delusion...how pleasant...to sleep peacefully, to be loving, generous, giving and forgiving, ... I think you have had some bad dealings with some so-called-christians. Jesus even warns us of them..."not everyone that calls my name, will I know."

I hope you find what you are looking for, I hope you lose some of the rage that comes through your post and responses. God Bless You.

PS...How old are you? You have a lot of information, but seem to lack the life-experience to see it in it's proper context.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

God doesn't "cause" evil but "allows" mankind freewill to make those choices. Constantine, like billions of others throughout history, and today, have made poor choices due to evilness.

Bottom line - stop blaming God for mankind's evil choices.

I thought everyone got the memo? There is no such thing as free will if you're living inside a system that produces interference at quantum levels. Unless of course you are capable of controlling every subatomic particle of your being.

Our "reality" is like a big 4D holographic movie, you have no choices, everything is predetermined. It may seem a little fatalistic, but unfortunately, it appears to be the way it is. I doubt God would play dice with the universe. But for simple reasoning purposes, I keep hearing about predictions and other dreams of things to come concerning the bible. If prophecy is true and real (and not simply self-fulfilling) then there is a plan for our reality. That being the case the future must be predictable and if that is the case, then the future is planned. If the future is planned, then there can be no free will.

So, if what it says in the bible is true, then there is no free will, otherwise we have a paradox. You have to remember that if a liar tells a lie, it doesn't mean it's the truth, it could be just another lie.

I have to agree that John 3:16 is a lie promoted by Constantine and that the Roman Catholic Church is the "Scarlet Lady" or the "Harlot." But I think that part was probably put in by a disgruntled scribe who was considerably smarter that Constantine and his buddies.

Cheers - Dave

[edit on 3/21.2010 by bobs_uruncle]

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Knowing what I know about the RCC.

Knowing what I know about their misogyny.

Knowing what I know about the bloody history of organized religion.

And knowing what I know about the GREED for money organized religion possesses.

Why would I trust anything in our current editions of the Bible?

I look at the Bible as a nice collection of written word, some beautiful and some clearly on agenda.

Any book promoted and used to order deaths of disbelievers is NOT a book I feel comfortable basing my life around.

Don't be deceived though - God's Scriptures, His Word, can be believed. What CAN'T be believed is ANY (A_N_Y) man made entity or organization that "claims" to be of God - but is only interested in their own greed and gain.

God did not create all of the "religions" on the planet - mankind did - aka satan. God created us, the planet, the universe, and His Bible which is His instructions for us while on this planet. But as usual, mankind decided to get all puffed up with pride and vanity and start creating his own "religions", his own "gods".

Why do you think we are now in the end days - God's wrath has just begun - because of mankind's evil.

Seriously? You think mankind is evil and creates evil religions which should all be ignored and that the only truth is the Bible? Seriously? What's the difference between creating a religion to endoctrinate people or a book to do so? Either way, it's a form of control by "evil mankind."

reply to post by yodagod

But there again why would jesus lie ?

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Actually, the word "believe" has a very strong significance here.

I think the pertinent question is: Is it humanly possible to 100% believe in something with absolutely NO DOUBT in one's mind whatsoever?

If one were to 100% believe with no doubt that they could walk on water, would they? Would others be able to even see it? If not, what is reality? Just relative perspective?

These are questions that plague my mind on occasion.

Anyway...






[edit on 21-3-2010 by Unlimitedpossibilities]

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Originally posted by mobo99
reply to post by nomorecruelty

 

Just to say, if we do not believe in "god" then we are in for a stint in Hell?!

I believe in an all powerfull being that created everything, but to state that if we do not believe in a particular faith and will be damed for it seems mad!

Faith in something is better than nothing.......

I'm not saying people have to be a "Christian" - as I said, there are numerous/hundreds of "religions" out there - all of them manmade.

Forget "religion" -

Think God -

We have the choice of accepting Jesus or rejecting Jesus.

Either or, there are consequences, and rewards, for both choices.

That is what I'm trying to say.

I believe it is all about living your life in accord with the guiding principles of Jesus. Good will be rewarded. Evil will be punished. Your fate is determined by how you interact with other people and nature itself. The better you become at it with each life, the better the next one becomes and it also goes the other way. What god you worship has nothing to do with it.

As to the original OP I agree with the basic premise. I would however go one step forward and would say sacrificing Jesus's human form probably wasn't such a big sacrifice for an omnipotent being like God. He can obviously create another human son since a second version is already in then scriptures.

reply to post by nomorecruelty


I don't know how many pages long this thread is yet, since I just read the first page, but YOUR post made me comment asap.............YOU SOUND LIKE A 9/11 DEBUNKER. You LITERALLY spout off qoutes from the bible (9/11 Commision report) as if they were fact. It's SOP............really, I can't believe that I could read this.

Someone asks a question........you have a standard, "I'm a Christian response." It's actually humorous in a sick way.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

It gives examples, quotes from the Scripture, later on in other books of the Bible, that describe the dragon/serpent/satan -

In Genesis, no, it doesn't come out and say the serpent was satan - but if you read the rest of the Bible, you'll see in various places, as the resource gave, in the Bible where it tells the names that satan is known by - and one of those names is the "serpent".

Too bad you cannot just simply point that out. The truth has to be sussed out by reading inferences in other books now? Just because Satan was referred to as a serpent in Revelations does not mean that the serpent in Genesis was Satan. It does not say that ANYWHERE. You cannot show where it says it because it never says it. I just hoped you would show me where it said it but you did not.

Sorry to waste both our time in asking a bible believer to answer a simple question.

Other "books" in the Bible - same book. The Bible is a book, yes. The individual chapters are called "books".

If you want to make the Bible read like you want it to read, then you will be doing what most of the masses are doing - creating their own little "god" to be like they want him to be.

But that is not wise, trust me - sure, you'll fit in just fine here on Earth - why, because "everyone" is doing it.

But you are only selling yourself, and your salvation , short.