The Great Lie is John 3:16, page 19


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reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:22 AM by Logarock
Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson



Should we trust a document thousands of years old, or you, K J Gunderson?


Man forgive me but you are somewhat ignorant.

First off its not one document. Its a set of texts that were written at different time and by different authors.

You would have to do a book by book studie and that has been done already beyond comprehension.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:22 AM by nomorecruelty
Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty


You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

=================================================

If a person outright rejects Jesus Christ, and refuses to even attempt to read the Bible - that would probably not be wise in the salvation sense.

A scoffer can always turn their scoffing around.



But if, say, you had been raised to believe a certain thing in the Bible, and didn't understand it any other way, I don't think He would hold that against a person.

And I said God wouldn't "allow" you, or anyone, to understand the Bible if their goal was just to scoff and ridicule.

If a person sincerely attempts to read and understand the Words, and ask God to open up their eyes, and ears - you might be surprised at how much you'll then start to understand about what's written.



Right, so again I ask. If your god has deemed that I remain ignorant from his will then we have a big issue come judgment day.

According to you, he will decide if bad deeds were sins or simply ignorance because ignorance will win them a pass.

When I show up, he has no judgment to make. He made me ignorant and kept me ignorant so no matter what I did, I just get to walk on in.

Maybe you meant something else in that other thread?


God didn't make you ignorant - you are making that choice by denying Him and His Bible. Huge, life changing, difference, there, my friend.

And no, ignorance won't get you a "pass". You also appear to enjoy taking things that people say, out of context, and trying to twist it back around on them.

In short - you are acting like a typical non believing scoffer, I'm afraid. And that is sad - because usually those types of people have no desire whatsoever to "learn" about God, or the Bible - they only go around stirring up debates so they can scoff - to try to inflate a low self esteem is all I can assume?

You can't choose to be ignorant - and then try to blame God. He makes it clear in His Bible that He will not be mocked - which is exactly what you appear to be doing.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:23 AM by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson


K J, every time you open your mouth, you continue to prove my point as to your motives.

The tree wasn't magic. Magic is forbidden in the Bible.

So God created a man from the dust (were does evolution say we came from? Soup?), well maybe it was a little muddy. He then took a part of the first man, harvested some cells and created the first woman. Wow, what a stretch.

Cain married a sister or cousin, that should be obvious.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:24 AM by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty

I could but there are already websites devoted to just that topic - but *you* will have to take the initiative and Google to find it.


I have done just that many times and found nothing but hoaxes and BS conjecture. I was hoping you had something real. No?

I think I'm in agreement with the other poster though - you want to use the Bible to try to "debunk" it, and God - yet when we use it for a reference, you try to shred it to pieces.


That is because you do not want to use the bible. You want to us Revelations ONLY to explain GENSIS. I already showed you that if we open your logic up to the entire bible, there are plenty of other references to serpents to choose from. You have yet to explain to me why it must be the serpent from Revelations and not any of the other serpents mentioned in the bible. Can you explain that?

serpents in the bible

22 different books of the bible that talk about serpents. Now explain to me why I should assume the one in Genesis is the one in Revelations and not one of the other 21 books?

Besides, what is wrong with using Genesis to discuss Genesis? If you want to use the entire bible, then you have to open your eyes to the many quotes I supplied about serpents as well, no?


I think I may have to go back to my original assessment - you appear to enjoy causing strife.


Because I will not simply just believe? Because I want to see it for myself? I have asked just a few simple questions and look how hard it has been for any of you to come up with a real answer?

You already admitted that you have nothing more than what YOU THINK it means. Now you are going to say that I am causing strife simply because I do not THINK the same way you do?

[edit on 27-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:27 AM by nomorecruelty
Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty


You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

=================================================

If a person outright rejects Jesus Christ, and refuses to even attempt to read the Bible - that would probably not be wise in the salvation sense.

A scoffer can always turn their scoffing around.



But if, say, you had been raised to believe a certain thing in the Bible, and didn't understand it any other way, I don't think He would hold that against a person.

And I said God wouldn't "allow" you, or anyone, to understand the Bible if their goal was just to scoff and ridicule.

If a person sincerely attempts to read and understand the Words, and ask God to open up their eyes, and ears - you might be surprised at how much you'll then start to understand about what's written.



Right, so again I ask. If your god has deemed that I remain ignorant from his will then we have a big issue come judgment day.

According to you, he will decide if bad deeds were sins or simply ignorance because ignorance will win them a pass.

When I show up, he has no judgment to make. He made me ignorant and kept me ignorant so no matter what I did, I just get to walk on in.

Maybe you meant something else in that other thread?


And no, "we" won't have a big issue come Judgement Day - it will be *you* that will be having an issue - when you stand before God Almighty upon judgement.

You, KJ, yourself, are playing a part in fulfilling God's prophecies - whether you realize it or not.

The Bible speaks ALOT about people that act, and speak, such as yourself.

God knew there would be scoffers, and He not only warned us about them but also told us of the fate of people like this.

You are, I'm assuming, an adult - and you appear to not be mentally challenged, therefore come Judgement Day, you will be held fully accountable for not only any evil things you do, but every evil thing that comes out of your mouth.

If that doesn't bother you, then it won't bother me either.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:30 AM by nomorecruelty
Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty

I could but there are already websites devoted to just that topic - but *you* will have to take the initiative and Google to find it.


I have done just that many times and found nothing but hoaxes and BS conjecture. I was hoping you had something real. No?

I think I'm in agreement with the other poster though - you want to use the Bible to try to "debunk" it, and God - yet when we use it for a reference, you try to shred it to pieces.


That is because you do not want to use the bible. You want to us Revelations ONLY to explain GENSIS. I already showed you that if we open your logic up to the entire bible, there are plenty of other references to serpents to choose from. You have yet to explain to me why it must be the serpent from Revelations and not any of the other serpents mentioned in the bible. Can you explain that?

serpents in the bible

22 different books of the bible that talk about serpents. Now explain to me why I should assume the one in Genesis is the one in Revelations and not one of the other 21 books?

Besides, what is wrong with using Genesis to discuss Genesis? If you want to use the entire bible, then you have to open your eyes to the many quotes I supplied about serpents as well, no?


I think I may have to go back to my original assessment - you appear to enjoy causing strife.


Because I will not simply just believe? Because I want to see it for myself? I have asked just a few simple questions and look how hard it has been for any of you to come up with a real answer?

You already admitted that you have nothing more than what YOU THINK it means. Now you are going to say that I am causing strife simply because I do not THINK the same way you do?

[edit on 27-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]


No, no - no more twisting of words? I did not say you are causing strife because you don't think like I do. There you go again twisting words around to suit your own self.

I said that you appear to enjoy creating strife - and that is due to the attitude you seem to have with believers - you have an extremely "smart" mouth - and I"m not talking education.

Which may be why that lit'l red tab is on your avatar right now?


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:34 AM by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson


I've already explained in a previous post to your questions about why I believe that satan was the serpent in Genesis. I'm not going to sit here and retype it out if you can't take the time to read it the first time.

If you want answers, *you* know where to look for them. If you just want to create strife, find yourself another "playmate".

Just a word of advice? You are probably close to getting a pretty bad rep on ATS due to your obvious need/want to create fusses with members.

Again, if that doesn't bother you, then it won't bother me either.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:47 AM by dusty1
reply to post by nomorecruelty


I have some interesting scriptures for you. You probably know them already.


2 Corinthians 10 v 4&5
1 Corinthians 3 v19
Romans 1 v 21&22
Hebrews 3 v 4
2 Timothy 2v 25
Mathew 7 v 6

"for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised." 1 Corinthians 4 v9b & 10


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 10:59 AM by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson


I've already explained in a previous post to your questions about why I believe that satan was the serpent in Genesis. I'm not going to sit here and retype it out if you can't take the time to read it the first time.


I know that. You already admitted that it was just your opinion and I accepted that. Not sure why you started up again anyway.

If you want answers, *you* know where to look for them. If you just want to create strife, find yourself another "playmate".


So after pages and pages of responding to me about your opinion, you tell me to go look elsewhere? Why did you bother attempting to answer to begin with?

Just a word of advice? You are probably close to getting a pretty bad rep on ATS due to your obvious need/want to create fusses with members.


That is not advice, that is just another one of your opinions. Advice is a helpful hint. I could care less what my reputation was. I am not here for any reputation. I am specifically here talking to you because I am curious. Reputation has nothing to do with it.

I am really sorry that what I thought was a real conversation has devolved into a personal attack. Is it because I pointed out many other references to serpents in the bible and you cannot explain why I should look only to Revelations for my answer? Upsetting?

I told you yesterday that since you admitted this is just your opinion, then great. That was all I thought it was. Again, why are you starting over?

Again, if that doesn't bother you, then it won't bother me either.



Not sure why it should.

If anyone else would like to explain why I should be using the serpent in Revelations instead of one of the other 20 books it is mentioned in, I am all ears. If people just want to get angry because I refuse to just believe what they believe, they are welcome to give me any reputation they like.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 11:01 AM by K J Gunderson
reply to post by nomorecruelty


I have some scripture for you as well.

Genesis 49

[16] Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
[17] Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Here we have a serpent that is also a man capable of judgment. Is this serpent also Satan? If not, why not?



reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 11:09 AM by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson


K J, every time you open your mouth, you continue to prove my point as to your motives.

The tree wasn't magic. Magic is forbidden in the Bible.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Did you really just write that? What religion are you again?

Every time you open your mouth, you demonstrate a vast ignorance of the bible that is astounding. God forbids HUMANS from doing magic, even though that happens in the bible as well. God does all kinds of magic and it was HIS TREE.

God created the earth and everything on it - MAGIC.
God created a tree that bore fruit containing all the wisdom of good and evil - MAGIC

Jesus, Moses, other performed MIRACLES such as raising the dead, moving water. Ever hear about Lazerus? Water into wine? Parting of the Red Sea?

Sorry sweety but the bible is FULL OF MAGIC.

So God created a man from the dust (were does evolution say we came from? Soup?), well maybe it was a little muddy. He then took a part of the first man, harvested some cells and created the first woman. Wow, what a stretch.


Nothing magical there at all huh?

Cain married a sister or cousin, that should be obvious.



Obviously. A sister he did not have or a cousin born to an aunt or uncle he did not have. Obviously.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 11:15 AM by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty


And no, "we" won't have a big issue come Judgement Day - it will be *you* that will be having an issue - when you stand before God Almighty upon judgement.


Not according to what you originally said. Are you retracting it, correcting it, denying it, or not paying attention to what you have already stated? You told me that you god would not allow me to be anything but ignorant. You said your god will not punish the ignorant. Do I really need to sift through all these posts to show you your words again? If you are changing your mind, that is cool but at least admit it.

You, KJ, yourself, are playing a part in fulfilling God's prophecies - whether you realize it or not.

The Bible speaks ALOT about people that act, and speak, such as yourself.

God knew there would be scoffers, and He not only warned us about them but also told us of the fate of people like this.


What good would your faith even be if it was not questioned? Do you really believe your god would reward blind faith over valiant efforts to do good?

You are, I'm assuming, an adult - and you appear to not be mentally challenged, therefore come Judgement Day, you will be held fully accountable for not only any evil things you do, but every evil thing that comes out of your mouth.


Then you have to explain what you meant when you told me that your god would not allow me to understand.

If that doesn't bother you, then it won't bother me either.



Not sure why I should be afraid of your god. That is kind of the point. I am trying to figure out exactly why I should fear your god and you have gone from trying to explain it to being kind of a jerk to admitting you cannot explain it to being more of a jerk.


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 11:28 AM by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson


Here we have a serpent that is also a man capable of judgment. Is this serpent also Satan? If not, why not?


Um, no. It shows it is was a man as it states. It's called a metaphor. Check it out.

Donkeys talk though?

Or is this donkey also Satan because he speaks?


Thank you for proving my point. At times, spirit beings, used animals to make statements to humans.

No, the donkey wasn't Satan.

[edit on 27-3-2010 by dusty1]


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 11:31 AM by K J Gunderson
Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Actually, no, I don't see your point - I have not said the Bible was flawed in any way - it is not flawed, it doesn't contain errors, or contradictions.


Yes you have, yes it is, and yes it does.

You just said that this is only your opinion. If the bible was perfect, you would not need to use your opinion, it would be crystal clear. You would not be telling me that it is just how you see things. If it was without flaw, you would say 'this is what it says clearly right here.' You cannot do that. You have to interpret things. That is not perfect. As for contradictions, that is a thread all by itself but I would be happy to tackle that for you.

Now, with that said, I did say there is a lot in there that I myself have to take with faith - and alot that has been physically proved.


If you have to take it on faith, how perfect is it again?

Nothing has been physically proven and you refuse to even offer links to any such evidence so you are asking me to take that on faith. I guess if you cannot back it up, maybe do not bother trying to use it?

But my lack of understanding isn't cause to determine anything in the Bible is not correct. I take the Bible, in complete, with faith in spite of my not understanding some things written.


I did not say your lack of understand was what made the bible wrong. I said that you have to interpret things and use faith to decide what you think they mean makes it not perfect.

Also, when I said that for the sake of debate, let's say the Bible is not the complete Scriptures.......... I said that as a hypothetical approach - not as a solid evidential statement, because you kept saying "What if it isn't the complete Scriptures?".


But it is not and you know that. You know about the Council of Nicea, right?


reply posted on 27-3-2010 @ 12:01 PM by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson


God forbids HUMANS from doing magic, even though that happens in the bible as well. God does all kinds of magic and it was HIS TREE.



You are correct, humans are forbidden to practice magic, Deuteronomy 18 v9-12

Why?

Supernatural "power" is either a hoax, or it comes from God, or Satan.
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