Today will mark the end of America

reply to post by pr0digy


Except this guys vision for freedom has little to do with freedom of any kind. I have debated the OP on this issue several times. He not only wants to re write the constitution, he wants to eliminate the 13th Amendment, and replace it with another one that gives the federal government the authority to strip a person of their citizenship.

Just look through his threads read them CAREFULLY and you will see that freedom is the last thing on this guys mind.

reply to post by gwydionblack

1. No preexisting conditions.

Really? With no mandate for everyone to carry insurance??? Ok...I'll cancel my insurance tomorrow...wait until I need it...then go grab a plan. They can't deny me if you are implementing no pre-existing conditions. I'm guessing everyone will do this...and then no one will have insurance because they will all be out of business.

There is no logical way to remove pre-existing conditions without mandating that everyone carry health insurance.

2. Open borders for health insurance shopping.

With no minimum standard of care? So which state is going to whore out the most to insurance companies to drop their standards to attract ALL insurance companies to move HQ? It will be like Delaware for credit card companies.

3. Expansive attempts to lower the cost of actual medical care.

Wow...I wonder why no one has thought of that before??? Or maybe it is harder said then done. Would you care to expand on this??? Or should we go with my plan of "Make health care super good for everyone."??? I have as much of a plan for mine to work as you currently do for yours.

4. Convert military spending to establish a complete overhaul and revamping of the Medicare and Medicaid system in order to cover ANY persons who cannot afford health care within an income based system.

I don't have a problem with this one...I'll trade bombs for American lives anyday. This would be a tougher bill to pass than the one that just did though...Americans love their bombs.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

Thomas Jefferson was a progressive... and a very wise man.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. "

"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. "

"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

:There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents. "

"We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

reply to post by doublehelix


Jefferson was a slave owner. So he should know about taking care of other people when they don't have a choice.

reply to post by whaaa


There can be many forms of revolution my friend. The founders of this country had their guns, we have our words. Words can be powerful if the right people are listening. I'm in no way saying i'm going to take up arms in a violent revolution. But I think you know exactly which people are the enemies and it was ignorant of you to assume that I was speaking of anyone like forest rangers etc.

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by doublehelix

 

Jefferson was a slave owner. So he should know about taking care of other people when they don't have a choice.

i wish that he hadn't been a slave owner. That way you would have had to argue that his statements are inaccurate, and not simply point out that he was a slave owner. I have no intention of debating slavery so i guess my point is effectively lost.

Originally posted by pr0digy
reply to post by whaaa

 

There can be many forms of revolution my friend. The founders of this country had their guns, we have our words. Words can be powerful if the right people are listening. I'm in no way saying i'm going to take up arms in a violent revolution. But I think you know exactly which people are the enemies and it was ignorant of you to assume that I was speaking of anyone like forest rangers etc.

I guess I am ignorant.

No, I don't know which people are the enemies. You tell me...I want specifics. There are some here that are advocating violent revolution; perhaps you can help them with targets; words don't seem to be enough for them. They want blood.





[edit on 23-3-2010 by whaaa]

reply to post by whaaa


I thought it was obvious. The enemies are the people that would shove a health care reform like the one we are seeing down our throats. Of course this is just my opinion. As I've said i'm not advocating violence, peaceful protest can accomplish a lot, it's been done in the past. And as for giving the people that want blood targets thats just an absurd statement as I have clearly stated i'm not speaking of taking up arms in violent revolution. And the people that want blood probably already know who their targets are in the first place.

reply to post by gwydionblack


A nice 4 step plan but you forgot, were in there do the medical insurance companys stand i dont think they will like your plan and they have grown big enough, to do something abouth it. What is your answer for them. And how can something new not cause taxation even if you get rid of old programs, this is the government were talking abouth even in religions there comes a time to collect the money. But mainly the insurance companys wont like it and they are part of the government infact they have a bigger voice because thats all they do make sure they get the bigger cut they hire people and thats there primary job to look and find new ways to get a bigger cut, the people unfortunately are to poor to do this and to stupid to hire anyone that would actually side with them, unfortunately all the good politicians that politicize are looking for the money not the headaches, it's so much like the law system it's funny, oh wait it is the law.

I admire your drive for the pursuit of the unatainable virtue freedom, its like catching air with your hand, or turning lead into gold, you can't have true freedom because true freedom is chaos, there for must always be laws, and because there must always be laws there will always be controdictions and loop holes in everything. Look at the mess that is politics and any government you can think of now think if there would be true freedom anybody can do anything they want, what will they do hold hands and sing. Some would most wont and everything you can imagine good or bad would happen. I mean If in a institution were all came out of it with the thing they want 'more profit', a self contained habitat of the most calm and docille of individuals and they had the freedom within the extent of the law, to these most generous all full of good intentions creatures able to create a better world if they so chose, they did alwright for a while but now most would eat eachother if given the chance, figuratively speaking of course. Now if in this controlled environment they cant get along what makes you think true freedom will be better none of us would like true freedom in fact most of us would be scared shietless of it and would prefer the box of societies to it, there would be mass panic and all kinds of things. Humans are not as versatile as we like to think, were far from it. If there ever comes a time for such a world were freedom exists like you want to imagine, trust me what will walk the earth or any planets you can think of will not be human even if it derived from humanity.

And that is why your misguided and like I said some other post that its vague, but I got to admit I admire your drive for something you can never fully achieve. At best you can get a glimpse of it. you might want to rederect you energy and focus to something you can achieve. Like putting more presure on the politicians to do what they promise, or baking a cake. I would chose the cake there delicious.

nevermind lol

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Full_Vision]

well, I guess we are going to have to wait to see whats in it... but, if they had to do a party line vote to pass it.... well that just goes to show you... were screwed and the Republic must be dead. and well there passing this bill says the Constitution is dead as well. exactly, Why....? when its much easier to just polygraph government and get rid of the bad apples.
the laws are already in place - well, we have to go back and re-instate a few laws that prevented to criminals from walking away with the bank.
and we will have to claw back about 30 trillion$$ in criminal court.
which may involve at least 4 wars if not more... after all these criminals are global... not just the garden varity criminals but those that are above the Law.

Originally posted by Annee

The USA per capita is near the bottom of aid to other countries.

Just thought you should know that.

One thing that looks interesting is the population size of the top 21 richest countries. I don't see Russia or China on the list and I think when we look in terms of "per capita" the numbers get skewed.

Out of the top 21 countries five have a population of 5 million or less, six have 10 million or less and five are between 40 to 60 mil. Now we are talking the richest countries in the world and most have less than 10% of the US population.

So.....richest countries in the world...small populations = great per capita anything.

So looking at the top 10 countries that give the most the US is #1 by far, and gives more than #6 through #10 combined. So what is more important, a country that give more per capita or one that give 10 times more gross? I guess it depends on what a person is trying to prove…hehe

Also, I see that only three countries give more aid from the private sector than the US and all of them are around five mil in population. Once again I think such a extreme in population skews the numbers, but when one compares 5 mil to 350 mil population the gross donations are rather different.



[edit on 23-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by DarkspARCS



Please, calm down.

Australia wasn't fully made up from criminals in the beginning. That's just like saying that America was founded by a bunch of American Indian killing monsters. They didn't all kill Indians, only the ones that felt it was right, which some didn't and shouldn't.

Australia is a proud nation, mostly created by Immigrants and wealthy businessmen who came here to build up the country, which they certainly have. We have beautiful cities and lovely country sides. That's why we are called the lucky country.

So to say we are progeny of criminals is just generalization.

Your remark about one glitch in the gene pool making a stupid remark goes for every single country on the planet, including yours.

I found your post to be very silly, bordering on insane. You seem to think that America is without a doubt the best country on Earth and that basically we should all bow down to it.

I seem to remember about a hundred different serial killers, cult leaders, child murderers, school massacres, illegal invasions of countries, hell, the killing of thousands and thousands of innocent civilians using the atomic bomb. It really seems that your country's leaders are leading you all down the right direction, if that direction is towards self destruction.

Ask any sane person, and they'll tell you that it's healthier to eat a freshly cooked real meal rather than a microwaved, mass produced monstrosity. Did you know that around the world, many people regard Americans as fat, racist people who care about nobody but themselves?

I don't agree with this, because I know it is just a stereotype. But your post seemed to prove that you give in to stereotypes, and that is the kind of social weakness that ruins any society.

I agree that many country's have their problems, in fact, every country has it's share of problems.

You say that pretty much every invention can be traced back to America, but put it into perspective. Those people have a family line that goes back to other countries. Even if they are American born, remember that Americans weren't around back in the 1300's for instance. Everybody has a family history that goes back to many other places around the globe.

What you should say is that as a whole, mankind has branched out to many parts of the globe, and is doing some amazing things. One day we will all be doing them under the same banner, because mankind is one species, and together we can make a better future for our children, our grandchildren, and their great, great grandchildren, a hundred odd years from now and beyond.

Stay cool.

Peace.

reply to post by whatukno

Just look through his threads read them CAREFULLY and you will see that freedom is the last thing on this guys mind.

And while you are looking through my threads CAREFULLY, do take note to realize the stalking opposition in the form of whatukno, a source that enjoys placing words into my mouth in every one of my posts and stands practically alone in his skewed views of my goals.



reply to post by OutKast Searcher

There is no logical way to remove pre-existing conditions without mandating that everyone carry health insurance.

Ah but there is, some people just don't like to use logic. This isn't a ONE step plan with 3 add ons, it is a 4 step plan, which means they all coincide with one another. You don't have one without the other.

With no minimum standard of care?

Did I SAY there was no minimum standard of care in my plan? Care to point out where I did?

Wow...I wonder why no one has thought of that before??? Or maybe it is harder said then done.

Yeah I can see how hard this might be. The politicians might have to stop taking bribes and campaign money from the medical companies.

It wouldn't be hard at all, all it would take is a set of balls to stand up to the money grubbers in the medical industry. Of course, that doesn't protect the interests of the politicians so why even bother? They are able to pass a bill that an extraordinary number of Americans oppose so what would stop them from passing a bill that would lower the cost of medical expenses or perhaps allow the medical industry to enter a more FREE MARKET structure so that competition may exist?

They prevent it. It isn't in their interests. If you honestly think that these people have US on their mind before themselves then please, get out of that hole or make room for everybody else.




reply to post by whaaa


I don't know how many times I have to explain this. The enemies are the federal government. However, in a sea of 300,000,000 people, forgive me if I can not blame black and white "targets" for you to ponder over. I could name a few that stand out in my mind, but that is the extent. The real enemy shows itself when the tough gets going.

Hypothetically, a revolution begins. Obviously, the main target is Washington DC. We have a right to march on Washington and we have a right "to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Therefore, with that single march the TRUE enemy is revealed. Those who would choose to grasp hold at power, deny the will of the people, or to ATTACK the people will be the enemies. However, do not confuse a revolution with a war. It can only be hoped that the revolution does not become a war in and of itself. In a revolution scenario those in power who would choose to be our enemies, would be removed from power to face trial. Their actions against us and their actions prior to that day will be in question to determine whether or not they are guilty of anything.

There will be no forest rangers or secretaries holding back the people from marching, I can promise you that. However, the opposition will come from somewhere - it will come from those who fear it the most. those who would do anything to maintain their wealth and power. These are the enemies of our country and our Constitution and they shall be dealt with in a civil and just manner.




reply to post by galadofwarthethird

And that is why your misguided and like I said some other post that its vague, but I got to admit I admire your drive for something you can never fully achieve.

The argument of whether something is achievable or not lies in perception and past actions. When you set yourself a goal that is easily attainable, you train yourself to quickly be done with it. When you set a goal which is damn near impossible, you create a reason for living.

I know that true freedom as I see it is impossible with the brunt of human emotion and choice, however, that is why though TRUE freedom is my ideal, I will settle with the closest thing to TRUE freedom that this world has come to know- and that is the Republic of the United States under The Constitution. No, it may not be perfect but unless someone comes up with something better then that is my goal and my livelihood.

If by today, you mean December 23, 1913, then you are correct.

Our health care was 50% socialized anyway. This won't change anything, but merely expedite the end of our currency

reply to post by gwydionblack


Dear ATS moderators,

When will you kill these pompous "patriotic" screeds of total BS. Nothing has changed in this country except a man that is 1/2 black holds the presidency. Oh, that and the fact he is FAR more fiscally conservative that the fake cowboy war mongering spend thrift Patriotic Act (real Constitution killer) Bush.

All you little tin hats wimps marching around reciting 3rd grade Founder quotes you don't even understand make me sick. You are lying, whining hypocrites who stood aside and actually cheered when the once morally-superior U.S. bombed and attacked another nation entirely unprovoked. Likely you are heretics who cal yourselves Christians, yet are the most violent, ruthless and judgmental and intolerant people in this hemisphere. You are cowards, the lot of you and you are ruining ATS with your vapid, stupid, noise.

Originally posted by EYEOFEAGLE
Regardless of whether or not this bill passes, things have already changed in the eyes and souls of the people. Those who have been corrupted in congress have been identified and will be replaced in Nov. Those who think that they have avoided detection will be fooled when they are up for reelection. They too will be replaced.

Things have changed People! Forever! When the information is released in proof, just how few people are calling the shots in DC, they will be relieved of their duties, so to speak.

Obama spoke of change, well, change is coming and it may not be what he had in mind.

We The People are already in the process of taking this country back and We The People will never fall asleep at the helm again!


To We The People, Do your duty and know what your duties are, choose
not and you will lose the life as you know it.

Eye of Eagle

You the other people you mean.

-rrr

reply to post by gwydionblack

Ah but there is, some people just don't like to use logic. This isn't a ONE step plan with 3 add ons, it is a 4 step plan, which means they all coincide with one another. You don't have one without the other.

Then how...why keep it a secret? How would you ensure everyone wouldn't drop their plan and only pick one up AFTER they find out they need it??? None of your other "3 steps" address this.

You see...this is what you do...you offer up vague "solutions" to complex problems and consider it done.

If you want to disagree....then show me EXACTLY how you would stop this from happening.

Did I SAY there was no minimum standard of care in my plan? Care to point out where I did?

Did you say there was??? So are you admitting that you would want the GOVERNMENT to regulate the insurance industry to institute a minimum standard of care in order for them to sell across state lines???

More vague ideas from you...and when challenged...you don't even correct it.

So tell me exactly...direct answer...do you support the federal government regulating the insurance industry???

It wouldn't be hard at all, all it would take is a set of balls to stand up to the money grubbers in the medical industry. Of course, that doesn't protect the interests of the politicians so why even bother? They are able to pass a bill that an extraordinary number of Americans oppose so what would stop them from passing a bill that would lower the cost of medical expenses or perhaps allow the medical industry to enter a more FREE MARKET structure so that competition may exist?

What isn't "free market" about the medical industry right now???

And again...more vagueness...your solution is "It wouldnt' be hard".

how about some examples?

How about some specific solutions if you think you have it all figured out?



The question is...will you respond with any specific points???

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I too ask for specifics. This is the best I've gotten so far.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this. The enemies are the federal government. However, in a sea of 300,000,000 people, forgive me if I can not blame black and white "targets" for you to ponder over. I could name a few that stand out in my mind, but that is the extent. The real enemy shows itself when the tough gets going.

reply to post by whaaa


Gwydion isn't a fan of specifics.

You are asking who is is fighting against...and that is the best you get.


I ask what he is fighting for...and the best I get is he is fighting for "freedom" and against "oppression". When I ask for him to define both...he goes into a long rhetoric speech. I ask for examples of how I am oppressed and I fail to get an answer.


He will now respond to this saying he has answered many times...so he won't answer again. Then I ask for links to his previous definitions...and he refuses.


That is his game.