Today will mark the end of America

Originally posted by Trueman

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
If america is dead why did I have to get up this morning, roll out of my warm bed, shower with clean fresh water, and drive my car to my job today?

Oh, that's right, because america is not dead.

I read the op and after shoveling through the bluster I hope I am correct in assuming the op feels the health care bill is what killed america.

I'm sorry I don't agree. At all.

How dead can we be when someone still has the freedom to blather on about our countries demise on the internets?

Alive kicking posting and griping all before noon on Sunday.

Only in america!

Well, millions are unemployed and lots of american families lost their homes. Besides many other issues, all these are signs of a falling empire.

Soon or later your life will be affected too and better to be prepared for that.

Out of the ashes arise the Phoenix.

I guess its all in how you allow external events to affect you.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Now is the time for the choice.

Do you side with the health care bill and accept it "for the greater good" regardless of its limitations on the individual and our rights?

-or-

Do you denounce such things in the name of liberty and our Constitution, for an ACTUAL greater good come tomorrow?

You already know my answer.

Wait - are you actually DOING something, or impotently DENOUNCING?

More importantly - what limitations on the individual are you referring to? I assume you have actual facts and citations to show where our rights are being trampled by requiring corporate insurance firms to insure people they otherwise wouldn't insure.

One more thing: you said "Today shall mark the end of America."

If America is ENDED, then what are you fighting for, exactly? Why are you talking about the Constitution if it's all over? "It's time for a choice." What choice? The United States of America is a failed experiment, according to you. Just leave it to those of us who you think destroyed it, and move on. I think Rapture is available somewhere under the North Atlantic.

It was my understanding that passage of the health care reform bill would result in civil war. Yet everyone seems to be going to work and pounding away at keyboards in a rage.

Jesus Christ. Every legislative setback is not the end of the freaking world.

I've been thinking about this point for a while; once the intended users, the 900lb gorilla of minorities no one wants to address, are all enrolled in this program --the GOP, should the try and repeal it, will crucified as racists, opressors, etc.

Maybe I'm jaded; but this has seemed since day #1 as the greatest Obama-freebie to secure hold on a voter base yet.

"'They're going to take away your health coverage if you don't vote for me!"

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Can you be more specific about your deadline?

Sure. But I have you know that it is a personal deadline and isn't necessarily based upon facts.

That much is obvious.

Internet Tough Guys make the Internet so much more fun.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Oh, the DRAMA!

Two-year -olds who don't get their way also think the world is ending and that everything revolves around one decision as they throw a tantrum, screaming and kicking.

This is not the end of anything. This is change. It happens ALL the time. This country progresses and changes ALL the time - and has throughout its colorful history. It always bounces back and goes on, better than before. I've been around over 50 years and this is how it works.

Take a deep breath. Observe the changes instead of resisting them and move on. It's not the cataclysmic event you think it is. This is NOTHING compared to some of the events in this country's history!

I've got to agree with you, BH, and I rarely do. This isn't the end of the nation any more than it will be when SCOTUS cuts the bill up or when the GOP takes the House back in November. We will be left with a little of this and a little of that, and no one will be happy. I will be amused when the law of unintended consequences kicks in and thousands of Pelosi supporters find out they are paying more and getting less. Some day, all the liberals will peek out of their Peter Pan constructed world and see that the proverbial Free Lunch doesn't exist.

reply to post by mothershipzeta


Quit being a tool. The way you choose to pick and attack pieces of my statements holds you in no better regard the the others who have chosen to do so in this topic.

Wait - are you actually DOING something, or impotently DENOUNCING?

Does it matter? Obviously if you read my posts you would know that the answer is that I AM doing something about it. However, I can SAY that all I want but that still isn't enough for some people. Apparently just because I post on the internet (god forbid) I am incapable of political action or insurrection. They will find out soon enough.

More importantly - what limitations on the individual are you referring to?

Choice. The facts are in plain site. I and no other Americans no longer have the CHOICE to opt out of health care without penalty.

One more thing: you said "Today shall mark the end of America."

Another thing that if you would read you would understand. I think too many people are caught on their little notions that if people continue to live on and follow the shepherds in their life, that somehow America lives on.

America is an idea. It has ideals and it has ethics. Those ethics and ideals were killed yesterday.

If America is ENDED, then what are you fighting for, exactly?

That would be the restoration of America based upon the Constitution.

It was my understanding that passage of the health care reform bill would result in civil war.

You must have received your understanding from another source than I because while I said I would not be surprised if health care reform resulted in violence, it will be one catalyst of many that leads down that path. The seeds have been planted and watered for sometime - this reform against the wishes of the American people is merely miracle grow placed upon the garden of liberty.

That much is obvious.

Speaking of internet "tough guys"...

In regards to my comments on MY deadline and 2012, YOU don't know what will happen then, I don't know what will happen then, and NOBODY knows what will happen then. If there are perhaps facts that you would like me to base my decision on, by all means U2U them to me and perhaps I can be rid of my deadline and go into actions right now.

However, with overwhelming information pointing towards the possibility of something happening in 2012, I would much rather spend the time I have with my family because regardless, 2012 will be my final farewell to my current way of life - whether it be through some supernatural phenomenon that changes the earth, or whether it be revolution calling.

My deadline is purely personal and if it gets moved forward via an emergency then I am prepared for that as well. If something comes to pass that threatens the well being of the people of this country before then, I shall step forward. If somehow I start to see reform in Washington and there is progress made towards restoring the Republic, then the deadline might change for that as well - HOWEVER, my involvement in politics over the past 11 years has shown me no improvements whatsoever, in fact, it has been the complete opposite.



What I talk of is serious, so why don't you go back to playing your video games and leave those who actually can bring something to the table to debate the issues.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
However, with overwhelming information pointing towards the possibility of something happening in 2012, I would much rather spend the time I have with my family because regardless, 2012 will be my final farewell to my current way of life - whether it be through some supernatural phenomenon that changes the earth, or whether it be revolution calling.

...and you believe soooooooooo strongly in revolution that you are more than willing to sit around and wait a few years to see if anything else happens first?

reply to post by boondock-saint

100,000 more hits to the local militia web sites

116 more gun-toting members join the ranks
with over 20,000 new applications in the last
24 hrs

gun sales increase by 6%

ammunition sales increase by 85%

multiple state attorney generals filing law suits
against the federal gov

survivalist gear sales increase by 10%

basic supplies (water, food) sales increase 7%

You saw all this in one day??? You got retail statistics for today...before today is even over???


You have a source for all these numbers???

reply to post by K J Gunderson


And thus I retract my apologies from before because clearly I had you pegged correctly. You would much rather use sarcasm and focus on only ONE SINGLE POINT of my posts to try to discredit me.

If you actually intended to do anything other than troll, than maybe you would have read the following paragraph that you so decided to quote out of context.

My deadline is purely personal and if it gets moved forward via an emergency then I am prepared for that as well. If something comes to pass that threatens the well being of the people of this country before then, I shall step forward. If somehow I start to see reform in Washington and there is progress made towards restoring the Republic, then the deadline might change for that as well - HOWEVER, my involvement in politics over the past 11 years has shown me no improvements whatsoever, in fact, it has been the complete opposite.

Don't try to play me for a fool. I couldn't hope that those of you who are against revolution could even begin to understand the concept, the planning that goes into such, and the guide marks of history that are necessary to follow. I am not a dissident terrorist as some would like to claim. Revolution to me is not abstractly acting to blow up some building or murder a couple hundred people. Whatever action I would choose to take, much like anyone who has been involved in actual revolutions in the past would tell you - must be calculated and strategic - done with cunning and sufficient support. Right now the support is lacking, but the feelings of dissidence is here and it continues to brew.

You only need to look at my first post of revolution on ATS and how many supporters there were, to my most recent to see quite plainly that the numbers are rising. But before you try to use the "internet warrior" argument against me, let me tell you that everything I do or say here on ATS, I do also in my life in finding people who are fed up with this atrocity of a government.

Ranks grow, ideas blossom, and patience is a virtue.

gwydion, I want to start off by saying I really like your thread. It summarizes the feelings that have been radiating from members of my community.
I would also like to say that I don't know if it is the end of AMERICA, but I feel it is the end of OUR America. No longer are we in charge, and for all I know, we may not have been in charge for a long time. Every great nation falls eventually, look at Rome, the Mayans, etc, etc. Some people could probably go on listing them all day. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how great a nation is, something will eventually destroy it. In this case the thing that made it great (freedom) is being destroyed.
I'm not 100% sure I'm getting my point across, but thanks for reading.

gwydionblack what makes you know that you are a patriot, what makes you think that the ideal of patriot is even alive today what do you think that a will and ability to believe in something give you the right to assume that the rest of the country cares or even believes in such a thing as being a patriot.

Why do you persist to believe that there is such a thing as freedom, when the only thing that exists is life and freedom is just a word, a word of great revelance but in the end its meaning is always in perspective. What would any revolution achieve what would getting rid of congress achieve but bloodshed and a lot of unemployed old people the members of congress. what would these people do then when they have no job, It seems to me it's the same adage say hello to the new boss same as the old boss.

And what makes you think that you the majority on the bill that passed, last I checked your in the minority, and quitt acting that others dont know that government is not all that great everyone knows, this bill aint that great but the majority would still have it because if you go out and look at you fellow american you would see that a lot of them need medical health and they would take it knowing that it will efect them in the future but cant aford to cut of one hand in medical bills to pay to fix the other hand and so like all generations they opted to let the next generation pay, be thakfull it atleast serves a purpose unlike all the other crap people are paying for since regan and way beffore that. If you want to make a difference come up with a better system then the one that exists now. And I for one believe that you mean what you say I just dont believe that that many believe as you do. And besides if you get yourself killed who would be as entertaining in politics as you are on this site, maibe if you took you misguided atempt at reconciling the constitution, and placed it somewere alse you would get somewere as it is now it's a dead end.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


It doesn't matter....

The political spectrum will eventually swing back to the right and some left wing drama queen will step up with shrill histrionic rhetoric that the union is doomed and we that have seen this type of thing over and over will continue to be amused.


[edit on 22-3-2010 by whaaa]

reply to post by zamo1993


I understand where you are coming from and thanks for the support. I know that all nations fall - it is a common theme of history and America is not immune to it. However, America itself is not falling just yet, only the ideals and morals that America was founded upon. America the country will still stand among the world, however - will it be a place of freedom and liberty as it began or will it be a place of oppression and greed?

You are right. OUR America is dead. The people no longer matter and thus the American dream is dead if it wasn't already. The only thing that we are able to do is to try to catch it on the way down, or at least pick up the pieces when it does fall in order to reinstate the Republic of old. The only problem is that this time, we need to be more careful of how rampant we allow our government to become.



reply to post by galadofwarthethird


I am a patriot by the very definition for which it stands.

-a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

-or-

-a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

I consider myself a supporter of my country and its interests AS IT WAS FOUNDED. I am a defender of individual rights. I am against the power of the federal government. I am willing to give my life defending such so thus I would be so astute as to say that warrants devotion.



I know what freedom is because I see it in my dreams and in my meditations. I have come to realize that I have never experienced true freedom and neither has anyone else who lives in the United States today. You can convince yourself to a point that you are free, however, so long as any portion of your life is dictated, so long as any choice of what you do is made FOR YOU rather than BY YOU, then you are not free.

Regardless of whether I am in the majority or minority with this bill (a statistic that can NEVER be known unless the entire American populous was polled) does not matter. Democracy does not equal freedom it equals majority rules and I am against such laws in which a group of people may thrive at the expense of the other half. The Founding Fathers spoke down upon Democracy and rightfully so because that is what we have become - a long shot from the Republic that we were given and meant to maintain.

The entire system is broken. It is beyond health care. The voice of the people is not listened to and frankly, in recent history, it never really mattered. In a situation where people got their way, it was only because those in power wanted it that way. We elect people to REPRESENT us, to REPRESENT our views and our needs, not to DICTATE them for us. Don't you understand what this nation has become?




There have been many better plans come to fruition by the people, but no one will listen because nobody cares. Too many add ons and political motives remain in Washington to care about a plan that would actually work and benefit the American populace.


How about this for size?

Health Care Reform Act - Gwydion Black Style

1. No preexisting conditions.
2. Open borders for health insurance shopping.
3. Expansive attempts to lower the cost of actual medical care.
4. Convert military spending to establish a complete overhaul and revamping of the Medicare and Medicaid system in order to cover ANY persons who cannot afford health care within an income based system.



OH WAIT! Did I just come up with a common sense, 4 step plan, that would require NO tax increases whatsoever, and would successfully cover every single American citizen without FORCING them to enroll in health care if they didn't want to? Without any mention of implant medical devices? Without the countless other bulk contained within almost 3000 pages of legislation? That's impossible... health care is much to difficult a scenario. And the people can actually UNDERSTAND what I wrote can't they? Did it infringe upon the rights of the normal man? Did it infringe upon the business rights of the insurance company?

The sad part is that I didn't have to even THINK to come up with this stuff because it is common sense being thrown about by the common man over and over again.

Yet people look at this malarkey in Washington and say "Meh, it's better than nothing". NO IT ISN'T! What has happened to common sense within the people to realize that it doesn't take a miracle to make a change that works and actually HELPS people.


galadofwarthethird, I sure as hell don't see a dead end here. I see tons of supporters of the stance I hold and the number growing every single day, here at ATS, and throughout the country. I see the potential future of our country growing right here on this site and others like it because the internet closes the gap between the world that is not blockaded by those in power.

This movement has only just begun.

Yeah it's just like what Bush did -- raising the price of energy in California only 2 days into his Presidency!!

Ken Lay had his wet dream for sure!!

topdocumentaryfilms.com...

Gwidionblack says upthread:

"America is an idea. It has ideals and it has ethics. Those ethics and ideals were killed yesterday. "

Speak for yourself. I still have my ethics and morals, they remain in tact and no one can stop me from exercising them.

My ideas and ideals? Still alive. Still being exercised, exercised ALL of them today as me and the sis had to sit around and participate in this health care system.

Yes we were at the blooming doctors office all.

And I may start a thread of my own about the disgusting commercialization of health care. (with pictures).

But right now I must again disagree with OP.

America still lives and breathes.

Just like we did after the last depression/election/9/11.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

reply to post by gwydionblack


Gosh, I quickly admit my own error in judgment. I do agree with your four step plan in this post!! I cannot believe this, and just wanted you to know that while do oppose the concept America is dead, I can be big enough to completely support this aspect of your views.

Good post.

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Let the rest of the world give aid and relief in times of natural disasters. Or food. Or shelter. Or money....

Yeah, didn't think any other country would step up to the plate.

The USA per capita is near the bottom of aid to other countries.

Just thought you should know that.

The immediate results of the Healthcare Law:

blogs.alternet.org...

I don't understand where in any part of this statement he has given up on america. From what I've read it seems like he is concerned for his country and wants to do something about it and rightly so. But he is only one person. And when did the idea of a revolution become crazy? Were the founders of this great country crazy? It isn't crazy to stand and fight for the country you love and we have a right to fight for her.

Originally posted by pr0digy
I don't understand where in any part of this statement he has given up on america. From what I've read it seems like he is concerned for his country and wants to do something about it and rightly so. But he is only one person. And when did the idea of a revolution become crazy? Were the founders of this great country crazy? It isn't crazy to stand and fight for the country you love and we have a right to fight for her.

I'm getting tired of asking this. Who is the enemy and who are you going to fight. The govt. you say....like forest rangers, workers at the FAA, cops, the military, secretaries that work for the FDA. Doctors and nurses that work at the VA? They all work for the government!!

Guys that wear suits and ties that work in Washington? For Christ sakes, tell me exactly who the revolution will be against and how do you identify them.

This pseudo patriotic, macho adolescent chest pounding gets so tiresome.
Find some real leaders with a plan and I might listen but lonely kids looking for acceptance and something to belong to/for, just don't cut it.

I want to hear a plan. Not some abstract BS rhetoric about taking back our government.

You want to take back the government....then start at the source....the huge corporations that pull the strings that the politicians dance to. Without really knowing who the real enemy is...you ain't got jack****.







[edit on 22-3-2010 by whaaa]