Satan come and reveal thyself for us!

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I have to ask why did you make the thread then?

I am very sorry if you didn't catch the idea of the thread.

Flame and praise are both pointless to me, but I didn't say I wouldn't respond on constructive critique.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
To get stars and flags, or what?

Yesssss. Stars and flags are nice and so very important to me. They tell other people to respect my posts and also reflect the intelligence of myself back to me - it is like the wonderous mirror of that evil wench in Snowwhite.



C'mon, man. Why is that hostile attitude? Maybe I stepped on you toe? Why did you even post, one may ask? I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. If you have such deep knowledge about the matter, why not share it instead of spouting irrelevancies?



-v

reply to post by Sigismundus


In a way, by a loop and a curve, those quotes you represented, confirms my own conclusions. Lightbearer is nothing but thought, capable ethically both in low and high actions.

Thought seduces us, but thought also teaches us. It can bring about the illuminations, but also the darkest sufferings and most monstrous deeds. So one - allegorically speaking - has to slay it's dragon form, the liar, the seducer and destroyer and become the master of it.

Thanks for good info

-v

reply to post by v01i0


I have to say I prefer giant fire breathing dragon Satan to little Pan-like goatboy Satan

I always wondered why the snake in the Garden got such a bad rep when it was God's negligence and stupidity that was to blame. God makes this tree he doesn't want human beings to eat from and where does he put it? Right in the middle of the Garden he made for his new humans. He then forgets to instill Adam and Eve with any idea of right and wrong, they're entirely ignorant and therefore shouldn't even be punishable for their "sin". Then God goes off for a stroll through the Cosmos forgetting to rid the Garden of talking snakes or post an Angelic guard.

And what happens when they eat the fruit? God has the gall to actually punish Adam and Eve, even though the entire thing was his fault. And he doesn't just punish them, oh no, every single one of their children is going to be born with a damned soul that must be redeemed. The whole thing is wonky and backwards and yet millions, if not billions, believe this story is true in some form

Satan is depicted a lot of different ways. He's Lucifer, God's favorite for a while, then he becomes a hubris filled rebel. Again God is to blame an Satan gets the bad rep. Surely if God knows everything he knows heaping more praise upon Lucifer is a bad idea and that maybe someone else should be his right hand angel but no, God just keeps promoting Lucifer as though He can't see what's coming.

Then he's a deceiver (even though he makes a good point about the apple). Then he's an adversary and a dragon. What amazes me is how much God enjoys using Satan to torment people, just look at what God allows to happen to Job or look at Revelations where it says Satan will be "released for a time" to tempt people even after the second coming.

It amazes me that grown men and women still believe in an invisible bogeyman. Haven't they learned that good and evil, knowledge and ignorance, are within us all?


[edit on 20-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by v01i0


So the seducer said that whoever eats from that tree wouldn't die, but instead become like god, understanding the good and evil and so on. Means knowledge right? Knowledge of opposites to be more precise. Lucifer, when translated from latin means lightbringer, illumination i.e understanding, knowledge indirectly. If you submit yourself to it, you'd be like good ol' doctor Faust who made pact with Mephistopheles. If you submit yourself to knowledge, it'll have your soul and becomes the master of your activities.

Why is knowledge such a bad character, often portrayed in similar manner as above picture? Could it be because it has also caused all the suffering that humans has been able to produce through knowledge? You know, weapons, cruelty, ideologies which had caused unspeakable terror and all that. Truly it is kind of knowledge that rules the world.



-v

Nice old school D&D pic (I think)! So yeah, nice thread, also.

Ophiuchus 13 had it right about there being two trees, one of life and one of knowledge (they were actually kicked out for fear that they would eat from the tree of life and live forever with the knowledge they had gained- "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Genesis 3:22 ). The knowledge simply being of good and evil, I don't see why such would be a threat to someone good in the first place, no matter how long they live. This also speaks to the possible intentions of "god" though.. you would think, since they now know good they would side with him, yet he becomes fearful. Why would that be, do you think? Is it because they can tell he is not all good? Also, how were they supposed to know right from wrong (yielding to temptation vs. obeying), if there was no understanding of good vs evil before they ate the apple? Why let the most evil being in the whole of the Christian religion temp someone with no sense of right and wrong in the first place? Makes no sense to me.

As to why knowledge is personified the way that it is, look again at what is going on here: a controlling father figure, who demands absolute obedience (i.e. no questioning him, ever! must always have faith etc etc, don't be worldly or prideful; be humble and simple - these are all Christian values, yes?). The more we learn, the more we are able to see moral quandaries, and to understand why we should and should not do this or that. If you want to control someone, you want them as dumb as possible ( as many on here that say we are being dumbed down wholesale will tell you without much prompting), as they are less likely to question you, because all of a sudden you aren't the only one that knows what's going on.

Why not picture knowledge as something repulsive, as well as tied to negative consequences for associating with it and gaining it? It was all the easier in times past due to superstitions.

Hope I've been clear

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hey Titen-Sxull, thanks for an insightful post.

I suspect that Bible - as many other texts which we have given a religous status - has remained popular and influent mainly because they 'speak' to many on uncoscious level. Yet many people seem fail to grasp their symbolistic value in a conscious way, resulting in literal interpretation of the texts.

You raise many good points. From Bible we can observe - without misconceptions - that the God which the church has given status of perfect being, has indeed made many errors, acted like a lunatic or infant child, destroying, torturing and bullying it's little creations.

Indeed if God was perfect, why doesn't his creations reflect that perfection? Of course, one could always draw the argument that God ways are unknown to us and we don't understand it's perfection. If God was perfect, then we of course have to assume that he knew all along what was going to happen, that man would eat the fruit and commit all other errors on the way.

But when I try to comprehend Bible from a psychological and philosophical point of view, it begins to make some sense - well, at least to me and in my opinion. It appear as if God and Satan (as well as many other characters in that specific collection of stories) are nothing but various psychological aspects of our psyche. And what else it could even be, as we cannot really have information about the true creator, that which put the universe in motion. I have nothing to say about that entity (be it an universal law or the whole existence itself), but about Bible, I as many others, have lot of interpretation and opinions. It is merely a story which reflects the psychologica reality in a symbolic way. And that is an opinion.

-v

reply to post by ganja

Originally posted by ganja
"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Genesis 3:22 ).

What horrible and jealous being(s) they were!

About the last parts of your post, you seem to be saying (as far as I understood it - please correct me if I was wrong) that it, the portrayal of knowledge in evil manner, is about controlling the masses?

I'd like to add that also the question of opposites (right and wrong, up and down, hot and cold and so on) is referring to this dual character of out thought. We seem to be thinking in contrasts of opposites which may as well be God and Satan. This is pointing to the thought itself.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


You know, I do really get that there is a lot of symbolism in the "little books." However, I do not see how people can believe in one part and not the other (if you believe a guy can come back from the dead, why can't someone live in a whale?). It is supposed to be a holy book as well as the word of god. You would think the authors would stick to either fiction or non fiction and run with it

Now in your first post you pondered about why the concept (or in some peoples eyes, the person/angel/demon thingy) of Satan is portrayed as it is. I put the one theory out there previously, but here is another if that one was not to your liking:

Christian split of from Judaism, who supposedly were Pharaohs slaves in Egypt. The Egyptians worshiped gods such as Ra (light bringer) as well as Apep (their personification of evil/darkness, represented by a snake or snake like creature). They would worship life as well as death, as is evident if you look at heiroglyphs depicting an ankh, you will notice that often you will not only see that symbol of life, but also a serpent. They worshipped both aspects at the same time, etc etc. Also, they were the oppressors as well.

I know if my and mine were being held as slaves for who knows how long, I may be inclined to vilify the gods of my oppressors. Being a slave though, I may have gotten some mixed messages, and combined the imagery of two of the major deities (this is, of course assuming that it isn't intentionally an amalgam of the two).

Sorry if that bit isn't clear, is off the top of my head.

Then there is the fact that snakes are poisonous, and can cause death. What do we put on poisonous things? The picture of a skull, representing death. This all goes back to the first theory I posted (knowledge is death, stay away!)

Personally I think it IS just for control. All the way down to original sin (concept of not being "good enough" from birth, so you have to do *just* these things and not *those things* to get in good graces), all the way to Jesus (an easy out in my opinion- why sacrifice when you can just say "Hey god.. uhmm, will you forgive me?" People almost always go for the easy way out. Saying that accepting Jesus is now the ONLY way to heaven is a nice touch). The whole "someone died for YOU (!!!) to save you, before you were even born!" thing smacks of imparting guilt on the listener, as does original sin. I see this as a way to get to the ones not ensnared by blind faith in line.

Just some random thoughts on the subject. Hope it was helpful!

reply to post by ganja


Yeah, people often seem to be selective about what part of the story they want to accept and maybe ignore the other parts. I often see people (some Christians) considering that God is absolutely good, and no evil can come from him - but if everything is God's creation, where the heck did evil come if not from him? If one would pay attention to the whole story, it would change their conception of God. By the book of Job it definately seems to be clear that God is capable of everything.

It has definately been employed for control. But I wonder whether it was the original purpose of those stories, but rather it has been twisted later as a means of control. But yeah, perhaps it boils down into the institutionalized religion, not faith and spirituality.

The part of your post where you talked about slavery and pharaos, reminded me that there has been speculation about some Bible characters actually being pharaos themselves.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Oh, I'm not being hostile.

I'm quite silly, but due to the lack of empathy on the internet its hard to convey it.

Just imagine my post with the voice of Cobra Commander.

Yet one more Satan thread ...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

Satan is depicted a lot of different ways. He's Lucifer, God's favorite for a while, then he becomes a hubris filled rebel.

He can also be a represented as a self aware and clever little doggy:



How many times in The Wizard of Oz does Toto save innocent little Dorothy's bacon or lead her to truth?

Yes I'm being a little facetious but at the same time not.

reply to post by MikeboydUS



Was that image before the Nachash lost its limbs? Before God cursed it.