Is the Health Care Reform Bill really overwhelmingly opposed by the American Public???

reply to post by lpowell0627

OK...so you are saying that polls are meaningless and do not represent the TRUE feelings of the American people.....

lpowell...it's hard discussing things with you because I'm not sure you comprehend what I say. I clearly explained the shortcomings of the polls, but acknowledged it is all we have to work with. I'm not going to repeat what I said in the OP...just go back and read it over again.

Then, you use an averaging of the POLLS -- the same meaningless ones -- to try to refute the other polls that were presented, with sources, in other threads.

You are desperately grasping at straws.

It is the only data I have to work with. I would rather use data, even if it is not perfect, then go off of my emotions and perceptions.

The majority of Americans, as of right now, do not support:

This healthcare reform bill AS it is written.

Where is your proof or your source for this??? I just went over the numbers...I can't just keep repeating everything I say. You will just have to go back and read the OP and show me where there is a majority.

And again, there is more evidence to show you that you are in the minority of those that support this measure of healthcare reform.

I have acknowledged I am in the minority...but it is a large minority and isn't very far off from the majority.

Do you deny this?


And so by your logic...since things aren't great in our country right now...we should just stop everything...right? Do you think medical costs are just going to stop? Are insurance companies going to stop raising rates?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by kozmo

 

76% with insurance rate their coverage as good or excellent

I would be in this percentage...and yet I still want this bill to pass.

I am 100% satisfied with my health insurance. I rate it on the high end of excellent. However, I am with OutKast Searcher. I want this bill passed. I don't care...let me repeat...I DON'T CARE...if it means I pay a little more out of my pocket in order to cover this plan...health care should be a birth right, not a means of neglecting the under privileged.

I swear, some people are so selfish, but I digress...

EDIT: to comment on this "strongly" for or against...get real. There is no gray area. You either "are" or "are not". Quit letting arbitrary divisions suggest anything of validity.

Let me ask you...are you alive or strongly alive? See, the word strongly is strategically implanted to divide...that's all it is!

[edit on 18-3-2010 by Aggie Man]

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

The thing is the support for health care reform was much stronger and in the clear majority until Obama caved on the public option. That is why support has slipped. The public option was taken out to try to gain republican support and it got them none. Meanwhile they pissed off the people that wanted the PO and so it looks like no one is happy with it. If the public option was still in the bill, the support would be the clear majority.

The bill is still going to pass, and like other previous legislation that was proposed by democrats and opposed by republicans, ten years from now most people will be grateful it did.

We aren't against health care reform.

Were against a system that is written by the health insurance industry.

There are so many loopholes in this bill that allow the insurance industry to do as they want.

They will raise rates by over 50% before the bill is in full effect. AND you will be FORCED to PAY FOR it.

They will block doctors from prescribing drugs that are effective for YOU.
The insurance industry will decide what is wrong with you and how to treat it.
(Google Fibromyalgia UK or Canada)

They will do what is happening in Canada and only pay for drugs on a approved list. (approved drug formulary)

They will cover people with pre-existing conditions and then refuse to pay for what they will claim is experimental treatments. treatments that have been use for years for disorders like cancer will be labeled experimental.
You will end up going to court to fight the insurance companies and die because the treatment was delayed.

There will likely be many more problems that will show up with national health care as the insurance industry finds ways to beat the system.

Originally posted by CallMeCrazy
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

The thing is the support for health care reform was much stronger and in the clear majority until Obama caved on the public option. That is why support has slipped. The public option was taken out to try to gain republican support and it got them none. Meanwhile they pissed off the people that wanted the PO and so it looks like no one is happy with it. If the public option was still in the bill, the support would be the clear majority.

The bill is still going to pass, and like other previous legislation that was proposed by democrats and opposed by republicans, ten years from now most people will be grateful it did.

Care to wager on that?

The only way they can pass this bill is to get the votes they need before Congress leaves on the Easter break, otherwise they know they're done.

This bill isn't going to pass the regular vote. It will fail by a slim margin, but it's not going to pass. The question is, what will the Democrats do next?

Originally posted by CallMeCrazy
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

The bill is still going to pass, and like other previous legislation that was proposed by democrats and opposed by republicans, ten years from now most people will be grateful it did.

It's also opposed by a good number of Democrats. If this bill were really worth passing would all of the arm-twisting of their own party members be necessary?

Originally posted by mnemeth1

Those in favor of the constitution are STRONGLY opposed to the healthcare bill. So opposed in fact that individual states are looking at ways to nullify such a bill should it pass on 10th amendment grounds.

Then you'd have to nullify Social Security and Medicare too. How much do you think the American people want that?

"Those in favor of the constitution" include me, and I do not strongly oppose the health care bill. I think it is covered under the "general welfare" clause. Speak for yourself.

No they are not. Obama was elected on teh basis of health care reform. If Americans didn't want it, they wouldn't of elected him.
ATS leans to the right these days, and they have been campaigning hard trying to come up with all sorts of scare tactics to make you think it is against the Constitution and the erosion of rights.

All the government is trying to do is reign in a beast that has gotten far to big and hungry. Or they cry it is against capitalism. But America isn't capitalist anymore. A handful of companies running the show isn't capitalism. I always ask the same question. If you believe we are a true capitalist society, go ahead and try to open a dime store next to WalMart. Tell me how you do.

Companies should not be dictating the health of Americans. Companies should not be bankrupting Americans over health costs. Americans should not be paying exponentially more for far less superior care. 15,k Americans shouldn't be dying each year because they can't be covered.
Companies should not be deciding American's fate.
Companies that started as non profit, have turned into a corporate nightmare.

Reigning them in could actually allow more companies to emerge, and start giving Americans more choices.

If you want to see something scary, look at the history of insurance companies.

reply to post by ANNED


They have done it already. Check the profits for the past few years, and check it against national inflation. Why in the world would they need reform to make money?

I'm pretty sure less than 1% of the people who oppose it have actually read it. They rather take their info from opinionated talk show hosts on their favorite news channel. So if you watch FOX for example, you believe that 80% are opposed according to their poll...but given that FOX is a right wing news channel, that result is to be expected. Same goes for MSNBC.

Steven Colbert explains it nicely:



"Of course, the best way to poll people...is to poll people who already share your opinions."

That pretty much says it all.

The health care bill isn't perfect, but it's better than the status quo. You know, the status quo the republicans supported during Bush's 8 years in office. Hawaii already has something very similar to public health care, and guess what, last I checked they seemed pretty happy over there.

[edit on 18-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

reply to post by nixie_nox

I agree with you, nixie_nox. I wish the bill would have been better but believe this is just a start to reign in health care and insurance costs and that eventually there will be a public option which will compete with private insurance and stop the outrageous escalating costs. The CBO, which is non-partisan, definitely believes this will bring down the deficit and is going to be more than cost effective.

I think a lot of people put their careers on the line to do the right thing and I would include President Obama on that - he knows this may cost him a second term but he had the guts to get this thing to legislation...too many former presidents and politicians took the coward's way out.

I'm for it, but would have been more "enthusiastic" is the public option was in there...it will be eventually and we can hope the USA will remain a semi-civilized and compassionate nation.

Originally posted by sos37
Care to wager on that?

I would bet you a quarter, but I know how tight you republicans can be.

Originally posted by sos37
The only way they can pass this bill is to get the votes they need before Congress leaves on the Easter break, otherwise they know they're done.

This bill isn't going to pass the regular vote. It will fail by a slim margin, but it's not going to pass. The question is, what will the Democrats do next?

If you are reading what Fox says, they don't have the votes but other sources are not saying that. It is still up in the air with some undecided democrats, but none of them will want to be the one to kill the bill. They are too close to having the votes and everyone knows if it fails it will be a ten year setback. They have to vote for the bill.

I know nothing would please someone like you more than to see Obama fail, but it's not going to happen. It will be the republicans that will loose. The question will then be, are the republicans and tea party going to resist? I believe there will be more planes flying into government buildings.

[edit on 3/18/2010 by CallMeCrazy]

Unlike fascist dictatorships, America has something that prevents it from being taken over. The Constitution. Our founding Fathers feared that the republic could be lost and so put safeguards up to stop it.

What the current congress and Obama are doing is attempting to break through the one thing that is in the way of tyranny, and is using the healthcare bill to do it.

Yes, the American people have rejected this bill and is opposed to what the government is attempting to do by a large margin. That is a fact. But be that as it may, the bill may pass and then be challenged in the Supreme Court due to it's toxic Constitutional issues. If Obama can get the Court to rule in it's favor, they win and America loses. However, if they throw out the bill as unconstitutional, America is preserved. That is the issue here, to transform the nation by destroying the founding document.

reply to post by ANNED

There are so many loopholes in this bill that allow the insurance industry to do as they want.

Would you care to share these loopholes with the rest of us? Everytime I talk about the healthcare bill...I hear something new from the opposition...but with no proof.

Where is your source that shows these loopholes? Can you show us in the bills where these loopholes are???

They will raise rates by over 50% before the bill is in full effect. AND you will be FORCED to PAY FOR it.

Baseless claims are opinions. We all have an opinion...unless you can provide evidence that your opinion is correct, it is simply guessing on your part. Do you have any evidence at all that would suggest this???

They will block doctors from prescribing drugs that are effective for YOU.

Source? This is starting to get ridiculous.

The insurance industry will decide what is wrong with you and how to treat it.

No the won't...the insurance process will be really no different then it is today. In fact...the only thing it will do is force insurances to cover MORE things.

They will do what is happening in Canada and only pay for drugs on a approved list. (approved drug formulary)

Again...no. Whatever you may have heard...this is not socialized health care. There is no public option. There is no single payer. This is more like insurance regulation...to regulate them to force them to cover whatever is wrong with you.

They will cover people with pre-existing conditions and then refuse to pay for what they will claim is experimental treatments. treatments that have been use for years for disorders like cancer will be labeled experimental.

Proof? Evidence? Source? Come on...this isn't helping the discussion...this is just paranoia out of control.

You will end up going to court to fight the insurance companies and die because the treatment was delayed.

This happens today...this bill is attempting to fix that.

There will likely be many more problems that will show up with national health care as the insurance industry finds ways to beat the system.

Well since we are not getting national health care...you really shouldn't worry about this.




Even opponents of this should be able to agree that all of the above is just a whole lot of mis-information and paranoia....right????

reply to post by CallMeCrazy

You may be right about that but I wish people would realize that if they can get off their butts they can be politically efficacious and make a difference...how many people here never even vote?. Grass roots organization within the law and small donations can do mighty and wonderous things.

I hope eventually there will be some reform within Congress to cut the pork added onto crucial legislation like this and stop the insane lobbying but it seems like the republicans are determined to make absolutely everything a near impossible struggle in order to destroy Obama.

It's dangerous to obstruct and destroy everything for the sake of partisan battles...to say the least.

reply to post by sos37


Sure...you can go place a bet right here.

InTrade Prediction Markets

Currently...the prediction market has it at 79% that this bill will pass. And historically the prediction markets are fairly accurate.

The only way they can pass this bill is to get the votes they need before Congress leaves on the Easter break, otherwise they know they're done.

Rumor has it that it will be voted on this Sunday.

This bill isn't going to pass the regular vote. It will fail by a slim margin, but it's not going to pass.

They aren't trying a regular vote...they are using "deem and pass" and reconciliation. Which despite the rumors are both constitutional and regularly used procedures.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Should the louder you yell give you more credibility?

I heard a portion of the protest on the Capitol steps today on NPR which went something like this.

A healthcare reform supporter (HRS) asked an elderly healthcare reform opposer (HRO) the same question three times and had the same answer literally screamed at him three times.

HRS: Do you receive medicare benefits?

HRO: ARE YOU CRAZY!!!?

X3

So to answer your question, eh - No.

For what it is worth, I am against the current healthcare reform bill because it fails to create a public option and single payer system. There are a lot of liberals who oppose the current bill for the same reason so don't read too much in to stats regarding the percentage of Americans opposed. Only difference between us and the rest of those opposed is that liberals prefer to write intelligent letters to their congressmen rather than screaming and throwing dirt and straw into the air like a troop of enraged chimpanzees.

[edit on 18-3-2010 by Lilitu]

reply to post by Fromabove

Yes, the American people have rejected this bill and is opposed to what the government is attempting to do by a large margin. That is a fact.

If it is a fact...you should be able to easily show me evidence of this fact. A source would be nice too that shows this "large margin" of opposition.

Originally posted by Fromabove
Yes, the American people have rejected this bill and is opposed to what the government is attempting to do by a large margin. That is a fact.

I think you should look up the definition of "fact" again

Do you see the difference between "knowledge or information based on real occurrences" and "bull# Beck says on FOX"?

What people aren't seeing is the manipulation being done on them by the insurance company lobby. The US Chamber of Commerce and the Insurance Lobby have spent a lot of money to try and show that this is a bad bill.

And people bought this tripe hook line and sinker. Now they parrot everything that the insurance lobby and the US Chamber of Commerce want them to parrot.