Is the Health Care Reform Bill really overwhelmingly opposed by the American Public???, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 6 times
Topic started on 18-3-2010 @ 04:15 PM by OutKast Searcher
In every thread I read about the Health Care Reform bill...I see people claiming that the American public does not want this, that they have overwhelmingly said they don't support this bill.

But where is the data to back this up???

National polls are horrible for this sort of situation...indvidual state polls would be better...and polls for each district would be even better. Unfortunately, we don't have that data as far as I know...so we are stuck with the national polls.

The way people talk on here you would think that there is a large majority against this health care bill in the polls. How much? 80% opposed? 70% opposed? 60% is commonly referenced...but is it true?

Would you believe me if I said it isn't even a majority of the population that oppose it??? Well it's true. Currently the Real Clear Politics average of the polls has opposition at 49.1%. But wait...it gets better...those who favor the bill has an RCP average of 40.4%. There is a current margin of 8.7% between those opposed and those favored.

Would you call 8.7% an overwhelming majority???


Let's break down the numbers of these polls.

They take the RCP average by using the most recent major polls.

See them here: Health Care Polls

Fox News Poll: +20 opposed
Rasmussen Reports: +10 opposed
PPP (D): +4 opposed
NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl: +12 opposed
Pew Research: +10 opposed
Associated Press/GfK: +2 opposed
Gallup: +3 opposed


All polls combined:
7819 people polled

3159 favor the health care bill

3839 oppose the health care bill

That is 680 more people that oppose than favor out of 7819.

This is not an overwhelming opposition.

I am actually surprised it isn't much larger with all the scare tactics being played.


But let's not forget the people who neither support or oppose...a good 10.5% of them don't know if they support it or not.

That is 821 people who just aren't sure and could go either way.


I know there are disagreements about this legislation...but some on here act like only a very small minority support this bill...and that is just not true. So I thought I would throw out some numbers and see what people think about it.

Yes...more people oppose it than support it. But we don't live in a mob rule society...and for very good reason. Like I said...national polls are lacking when it comes to an issue on legislation because we can't see what individual districts think. But it still can give us an overall idea...and what it shows is that it isn't overwhelmingly opposed. You can point to the Fox News poll and say..."See...55% oppose this bill"...but then someone else can point to the AP poll and say "See...only 2% more oppose it than favor it". And that is why it is important to use the average of these polls.

So I just wanted to get peoples thoughts on these numbers. Better than you thought? Worse? Do you consider this "overwhelming" opposition? Do you understand how a national poll can't capture how a final congressional vote would take place?

Just thought more discussion would be good...and let's try to keep it civil. If you have an issue with something I presented...let me know and we will discuss it.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:29 PM by mnemeth1
reply to post by OutKast Searcher


What you're not looking at are those who are strongly opposed in comparison to those who are strongly in favor.

While the margins show a fairly close race between those opposed and in favor, the strongly opinionated margins are FAR different.

Those in favor of the constitution are STRONGLY opposed to the healthcare bill. So opposed in fact that individual states are looking at ways to nullify such a bill should it pass on 10th amendment grounds.

About half of those who oppose the healthcare bill are strongly opposed, meaning they are motivated to take action against it. They aren't going to sit on the sidelines and let this go by without doing something.

The federal congress is playing a dangerous game by trying to ram this bill through. There are a lot of people in this country that aren't going to take it.



[edit on 18-3-2010 by mnemeth1]


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:29 PM by chorizo4
reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I am against it. I am a citizen in good standing w/o an arrest record.

To make a long story short, they can take the 2000 page bill, shine it up nice and pretty, turn it sideways and stick it straight up their candy ............



reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:37 PM by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by mnemeth1


I fail to see how that is of any importance at all. Should those that strongly oppose or favor something have more of a say than others???

Should the louder you yell give you more credibility?

I didn't include the "stongly oppose" or "strongly favor" because first of all I do not see the importance of that...and also not all of the polls allowed for those options.

Are you saying that since there are more "strongly opposed" that they should be counted as more than others?


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:37 PM by Sf18443
Reply to post by Kaploink


It is crystal clear that the majority of americans do not want this type of sweeping overhaul of health care. Almost everyone agrees reform is necessary but the decor cannot handle bills like this. Its irresponsible and it is not up to the federal government to take care of us. We are doing just fine


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com



reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:40 PM by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Sf18443


I just posted the only numbers available on public opinion on the health care reform bill. It certainly isn't "crystal clear" from those numbers...those numbers don't even have a majority of opposition.


Would you care to tell me how you have come to the conclusion that it is crystal clear that the majority of the American Public does not want this bill to pass??? Do you have a source? Or is this just an opinion?



reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:41 PM by Sf18443
Reply to post by Sf18443


In my previous post decor should be deficit.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com



reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:45 PM by kozmo
New data... Rasmussen

23% Strongly Favor
46% Strongly Oppose

Generically: 43% Support and 53% Oppose

I'll find the ones that give you more breakdown regarding survey comprehension and deviations


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:49 PM by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by kozmo


I have yet to personally meet anyone who "Strongly Approves" of this. I have met those who marginally favor it


That isn't very scientific. This will largely depend on your region, your economic class, and your interests.

the reponses by those who "STrongly Oppose" are from those who understand what is in this bill. The ones who "Strongly Support" it favor "Healthcare Reform" but not necessarily the language in this bill.


You have no proof for this statement. How are you able to determine what these people meant when they answered the question?

There was a very interesting study on this conducted either at the end of last year or in January of this year that revealed the disparity in the survey data. I will see if I can locate it and link to it here.


I'd be very interested in reading that. However...we don't require intelligence to have an opinion in this country. Plus...only judging by the discussion I have had...those that are strongly against it only THINK they know what is in the bill...but it is really only the mis-information they hear on the radio or on the television.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:53 PM by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by kozmo


The VAST MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS healthcare reform!


I don't see how you can say this...you are looking at the same polls I am.

I agree that there are more opposed...but I couldn't in clear conscience say that the VAST MAJORITY are opposed.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:55 PM by kozmo
reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Mayhap it is, mayhap it ain't I've read the Senate version of the Bill, front to back and line by line. I even took the time to find the reference legislation that would be changed or ammended by the Bill. I found very few things I like and a littany of the things that just plain scare me to death. Perhaps I simply associate with like-minded people.

I am still looking for the study that broke down the various survey data. I remember it being from a trade journal on research. Google - don't fail me now!!!


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 04:58 PM by Iamonlyhuman
[edit on 18/3/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 05:01 PM by Iamonlyhuman
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
The way people talk on here you would think that there is a large majority against this health care bill in the polls. How much? 80% opposed? 70% opposed? 60% is commonly referenced...but is it true?


This is the statistic that it important:

www.rasmussenreports.com...
Seventy-six percent (76%) of those with insurance now rate their own coverage as good or excellent. The fact that most Americans are comfortable with their own insurance coverage has proven to be a major obstacle for advocates of reform.




[edit on 18/3/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 05:08 PM by kozmo
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by kozmo


The VAST MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS healthcare reform!


I don't see how you can say this...you are looking at the same polls I am.

I agree that there are more opposed...but I couldn't in clear conscience say that the VAST MAJORITY are opposed.


Like I said, you have to get past the simple "yay" or "nay" on "Healthcare Reform." The VAST MAJORITY WANT IT!!! I am one of them - I desperately want healthcare reform. We need it! BUT... when you dig into the data you see a completely different trand emerge.

Here a few numbers from the recent Rasmussen Survey... (Cited in the link in my post above):

76% with insurance rate their coverage as good or excellent
55% would rather see COngress scrap the whole thing and start over

Just visit the hundreds of links on the Rasmussen page and review the countless studies - it is packed with great data! Generally supports everything I've been saying.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 05:15 PM by lpowell0627
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

National polls are horrible for this sort of situation...indvidual state polls would be better...and polls for each district would be even better. Unfortunately, we don't have that data as far as I know...so we are stuck with the national polls.


OK...so you are saying that polls are meaningless and do not represent the TRUE feelings of the American people.....

Would you believe me if I said it isn't even a majority of the population that oppose it??? Well it's true. Currently the Real Clear Politics average of the polls has opposition at 49.1%. But wait...it gets better...those who favor the bill has an RCP average of 40.4%. There is a current margin of 8.7% between those opposed and those favored.


Then, you use an averaging of the POLLS -- the same meaningless ones -- to try to refute the other polls that were presented, with sources, in other threads.

You are desperately grasping at straws.

The majority of Americans, as of right now, do not support:

This healthcare reform bill AS it is written.

And again, there is more evidence to show you that you are in the minority of those that support this measure of healthcare reform.

You simply refuse to acknowledge it.

You can not grandstand on the principle that Americans want healthcare reform and ignore the fact that we don't think this is the way to go about it.

Here is a list, not all-encompassing but rather a small snapshot, of what is currently going on in this country that is contributing to Americans' not wanting this particular healthcare bill at this particular time:

-- We have a President that is losing the confidence of the American people more and more as each day passes.
-- We have a soaring deficit.
-- Unemployment remains unacceptably high.
-- The housing market is not improving and analysts are saying it may not have even hit rock bottom yet.
-- Foreign countries are starting to literally go bankrupt and defaulting on their debt.
-- Partisanship and political bickering is at an all-time high.
-- Congress has been dubbed completely dysfunctional and incapable of functioning properly given the Democrat vs. Republican show.
-- Politicians -- namely Democrats worried about losing their seat -- are already focusing on re-election.
-- We are at war in Afghanistan. We are "aiding" Pakistan. We still have troops in Iraq. War expenses are at an all-time high and are continuing to escalate.
-- Unemployment benefits are continuing to be extended with no end in sight.
-- Medicare and social security are operating at a loss.


The list goes on and on.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 05:27 PM by lpowell0627
Originally posted by kozmo

Like I said, you have to get past the simple "yay" or "nay" on "Healthcare Reform." The VAST MAJORITY WANT IT!!! I am one of them - I desperately want healthcare reform. We need it! BUT... when you dig into the data you see a completely different trand emerge.



I agree with you. The majority of Americans want healthcare reform.

***However:

The majority of Americans don't want THIS healthcare reform.

There is a huge difference.
Just because we agree on the need for it to be done, does not mean we have to agree with the way it is currently being handled.

I fail to see how there is not a huge distinction between the two.

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States deserve healthcare reform that we can get behind. That is comprehensive, non-partisan, and isn't going to break the bank of the American taxpayer.

I personally am a little soured by the fact that they authorized $900 billion dollars "stimulus Fund" that by many accounts did not work as it was intended and therefore added to the waste spent by government today.

I am sick of the waste. I am sick and tired of imperfect plans and actions.

He's the damn President of the United States and should get it right the first time. Or at least keep at it until it is right.

Not just pass a bill and write a check for the sake of checking off the "done" box!!

He has an entire team and scores of people that WE PAY to do just that.

The minute that the American people refuse to settle for "imperfect this" and "not quite right" and "it's a start" and "it'll cost under a trillion so just say yes" nonsense -- it will stop happening.

When you settle you get less than you deserve.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 05:27 PM by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by kozmo


76% with insurance rate their coverage as good or excellent


I would be in this percentage...and yet I still want this bill to pass. You can't use this number and claim that just because they are happy with their current coverage that they are against this bill.

There is only one number to show that...and that is the overall favor/oppose. Being strongly for or against does not give your one voice any more weight.

55% would rather see COngress scrap the whole thing and start over


For what reasons? You are doing exactly what you are accusing polls of doing...twisting the statistics to fill your purpose. I searched the website to try to find the raw data for the poll to see the exact question...I can't find it. Every other poll has it right in the report...but Rasmussen does not...or at least I couldn't find it.

But what does this mean? 55% is still a very slim majority. Shall we now just govern based off public opinion polls?

I still don't see the importance of any of these stats you are pointing out. Strongly opposed...doesn't matter...you don't get more of an opinion because you scream louder than others. People can love their insurance and still support this bill. And people may want them to start over for many different reasons...but they don't ask them why...just if they want it or not.

I still stand by my opinion that there is no proof anywhere that shows that this is overwhelmingly opposed.
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