Representation without representation

reply to post by endisnighe

Don't even bother, this guy is flaming any and all threads in regards to this Corrupt, Dishohorable, Devious, unConstitutional, Evil, Takeover of another section of our economy

How am I "flaming" anything. I am addressing points and arguments. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean I am flaming.

I see your tactic is to just try to dismiss me instead of addressing anything I say. You would rather just ignore than discuss...and yet I am the one that is the problem???

Could it be that you just don't have any facts to back up your accusations...and you rely on people just believing what you say without looking it up and finding out the facts??? And then when someone comes along that points out that what you are saying is wrong you just decide to try to attack that person and attempt to discredit them???

He wants a Corporatist/Socialist/Fascist system installed completely.

Corporatist, Socialists, and Fascists huh...why not throw in Communist, Dicatorship, Nazism, and Tyranny just to round it out??? Exacly how is something Corporatist and Socialist at the same time???

These people think government is a benevolent beast.

Nope

These people think that government in bed with Mega Corporations is a good thing.

Nope

These people believe regulations enacted by congress, written by Mega Corporations, are good for small business and is good for consumers.

I believe Mega Corporations need to be regulated...along with industries that are vital to our nation. I think the free market is only free to be manipulated...I believe it needs to be regulated.

These people feel that since Mega Corporations have wronged them

I don't think any mega corporation has wronged me...but I do see the harm that they do if they are left to their own without any regulation.

I give up talking with these people. They are either ignorant or attempting to obfuscate what is said and what is being done to this country.

That is your own choice...but it won't silence me...even when you tell me to stop commenting on your posts. If I'm ignorant...educate me....if you think I'm obfuscatory...I'll try to simplify things for you. But we are dealing with complex concepts...sometimes the explainations are complicated and confusing...that isn't something I can control.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


It is better for the economy to be under mob rule than have the power concentrated in a small group responsible for regulation. Everyone has a price. Its harder to buy off 300 million than 8.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

Bad reform is better than no reform?

Did I say that??? Would you like to quote me on that?

A step in the right direction is better than standing still.

Actually, yes. You said exactly that.

And here are YOUR words:

If I was polled, based on how they frame their questions, I would say "no". Because they frame the question if this is your ideal health care package, or if this health care package has everything you want in it, or does this health care package coincide with what you want in health care reform. My answer to all of the above are "NO".

Now if they would ask...Do you support the current bill as better than nothing...I would say "YES".

So, you would vote NO, because:

-- it is not your ideal healthcare reform package
-- it does not have everything you want in it
-- and it does not coincide with what you want in a healthcare reform bill



Are you even aware that this is a vote for an actual bill. This is not a vote that says, hey -- do you want us to do anything about healthcare reform?

You are trying to argue support for a bill that you said yourself you would vote against.

So yes, you are saying a bad reform bill -- bad is the opposite of good and you said yourself it is not good -- is better than not passing THIS BILL.

One final question because I think I have proven my point:

You do realize that voting no to this doesn't mean there can never be healthcare reform in this country, right? That other bills can be written? That this is not the first time this has been attempted?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Thank you for replying to my post. My civil approach is not to appease you or anyone else, it is simply for the sake of remaining civil, as that is what I noticed you do. Which is why I think you upset so many people. It's hard to respond to your method of argument, that of calm opposition. It's easy to dismiss a raving temper thrower, though. Since you simply ask for examples, and it appears as if you have 100% trust in our government, it throws a lot of people off, including me. The thing is though, our government is not very transparent, so examples are hard to come by. I mean, if they were totally transparent in their dealings, yet didn't change their corruption, don't you think there would be a revolution? Or at least a huge shock across the world. The government can't afford to be transparent while it is as corrupt as it is. Americans wouldn't stand for it. That's why everyone is so fed up with government. We all see that something just isn't right. I really don't feel like pasting a bunch of links to all of the well-researched threads here on ATS that show evidence of corruption and evil in our government, but that's not because I can't back up my (or the OPs of such threads) claims. It would just take too long. Specific, transparent examples of the corruption in our government is impossible to prove. If it weren't, we would see a bunch of politicians going "bye-bye". See what I mean?

reply to post by junglejake


The 3 stooges can do a lot of damage in two years.

State's Rights Now.

yup - before obama was elected he made it clear that he was going to do what he wanted to do. Now he is fast tracking everything no matter what we want or don't want. Now the Pelosi keeps getting elected by san francisco. We need to vote everyone out..start completely over and hopefully get people that will impeach obama

A "Blind Vote" on health care reform is perhaps the ONLY way we can get something done. If the Lobbyists don't know that their captive politician voted for the bill -- then their money cannot influence them.

It's a horrible precedent for keeping track of voting records, but since only about 2% of the population watches C-SPAN or reads the bills that got voted on, it's kind of silly to worry about it.

Everything else the Democratic party is doing is pretty much what the Republicans did for years under Bush. Voting in $72 Billion in tax breaks for the wealthy VIA reconciliation and most of Bush's appointments were recess appointments.

So, nothing much new here to worry about, if you weren't upset YEARS ago.

reply to post by lpowell0627

You are trying to argue support for a bill that you said yourself you would vote against.

No...if I had a vote as a congressman I would, at this point, vote for this bill. I said that if I was asked this question in a poll, and in the way the polls have been wording the question...I would respond "no".

Responding to a poll question worded in certain ways in no way corresponds to how I would vote on this bill if I had the opportunity. See Dennis Kucinich..perfect example of how I feel about this bill.

So yes, you are saying a bad reform bill -- bad is the opposite of good and you said yourself it is not good -- is better than not passing THIS BILL.

I never called it "bad"...I said it isn't my ideal choice...rarely is anything my ideal choice in reality. And the opposite of "ideal" is not "bad"...no matter how hard you try. You are attempting to twist my words around...it is quite obvious...and you aren't doing a good job at it. I said it is a step in the right direction...but not as much as my ideal solution would be.

You can keep saying I think it is a bad bill...but let me set the record straight. I think this bill is a step in the right direction, although it is not my ideal solution, I think passing this is better than doing nothing or starting over.

One final question because I think I have proven my point

What point is that? Do you have a point? Please share.

You do realize that voting no to this doesn't mean there can never be healthcare reform in this country, right? That other bills can be written? That this is not the first time this has been attempted?

I do realize that with the republicans now having 41 votes nothing will ever pass the Senate again for awhile that is any honest attempt at healthcare reform. They would pass nothing but tort reform (which isn't the problem) and interstate insurance sales with no minimum requirements (which will make a bad problem worse).

I know the last time it was defeated it took over 10 years to get people to talk about it seriously again.

I also know you need to take what you can when you have the chance...this is a general rule of the real world.

Right now there is a chance to take a step in the right direction...so it should be taken.

Originally posted by hesphastus
yup - before obama was elected he made it clear that he was going to do what he wanted to do. Now he is fast tracking everything no matter what we want or don't want. Now the Pelosi keeps getting elected by san francisco. We need to vote everyone out..start completely over and hopefully get people that will impeach obama

no matter what we want or don't want

>> Last November, many Republicans were voted out of office. If YOU are an elected official -- that would mean you are REPRESENTING voters. Your chance for voting is in November -- you PERSONALLY, don't get to vote on a Bill before the Senate or Congress. This has been done for over 200 years, so I don't know why anyone is surprised.


And what is this about "Fast-tracking?" The healthcare bill has been running it's course for over a year. 80% of his appointments have been stalled.

What is "Fast" about anything being done -- or is this just something you heard on TV? Do you have any examples of what has been FORCED through quickly?

Enemies foriegn and domestic.

One word: WOLVERINE.

When did it change to a secret vote? Last I heard they were going to use something called the Slaughter rule??? Meaning that the bill won't be read or voted on but treated as voted and passed and just sent to Obama to sign.

I gotta say, I don't know what's what anymore.

I see the Left-Right paradigm is alive and well.

"The republicans did it".. two wrongs don't make a right. A bad bill, is a bad bill.

I'm renaming this bill "The Medical Patriot Act".

Dems and repubs have been destroying this country for too long.

Now voting on a bill without reading it... is the norm! WOW!

Maybe some of this country will remain after burning it from both ends.

I can end this thread in one line...

Article I Section 5...

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

www.archives.gov...

[edit on 3/17/2010 by whatukno]

I straight up plan on doing horrible things to certain people if these certain people do vote on this legislation in such a manner and it passes. I will most likely do these horrible things to the ones who vote it in if the legislation passes anyway. It's

1.UNCONSITITUTIONAL
2.It's NOT WANTED BY THE PEOPLE

Who are these people to think that they control us because we voted them into an office. It's like we now vote for who our new slave driver is going to be. For me, I will be one of the slaves that rebel. These "masters" who push and pass this healthcare garbage will be lucky to live past another day if it passes. I have every intention on not showing up for work and showing up at either these people's front door of their house or office. I promise they won't like what I've got for them either.

reply to post by sr_robert1


Maybe you should grow up and read the constitution instead of planning to do horrible things to people.


And these kinds of direct threats are against the T&C...

Terms And Conditions Of Use

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

[edit on 3/17/2010 by whatukno]

This might be off post. If this passes it does not represent me. I have not been to a doctor in over twenty years... At that time it was for ulcers...I cannot afford to pay for insurance.. I feel alternative medicine is better...If they cannot represent the people on something as large as this; it does speak volumes..the are alot people who cannot afford to buy this insurance...they need real honest people in there....something I doubt they; themselves ; for the most part could even fathom; you know if there was a plan to send people to medical school and pay for it; in return to heal people for the rest of there lives; with their education one hundred percent paid for it would be better; also maybe the doctors would have the best interest of the people in mind; not to say all doctors are for profit; does anybody see any thing similar to pre World War II Germany ?..............................

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sr_robert1

 

Maybe you should grow up and read the constitution instead of planning to do horrible things to people.

I don't see how reading the constitution will change anything. It's been obvious for a long time now that those in government care little about the constitution and would do a happy dance if it was gotten rid of. It does no good to know what's in the constitution when the members of government either circumvent or ignore it to achieve what they want and the other branches of government meant to keep this from happening do nothing or go along with it.

Instead of belittling maybe you should sit back and really think about what sr_robert1 is saying. I have heard more and more people saying things very similar to what he is saying. I'm thinking people have gotten to the point that they realize voting, protesting, writing and calling our reps have all failed miserably and has fallen on deaf ears. When all else fails, do as the government does and what seems to be the only thing they understand, force and violence.
When members of the government, Fed reserve, and the SCOTUS, are too afraid to leave the safety of their mansions then we might start seeing them working for us as intended...maybe.


"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats". -H. L. Mencken

I believe that quote is closer to how many Americans feel right now. I personally would rather not see that happen, but, I'm afraid that it's come to a point where it may just be our only option left.

Our last voting attempt to clean out congress imo turned out for the worst. We wanted change and voted for a president that promised that change and turns out it was just more lies. Voting doesn't work anymore and hasn't for quite some time. What option is left?

Originally posted by sr_robert1
I straight up plan on doing horrible things to certain people if these certain people do vote on this legislation in such a manner and it passes. I will most likely do these horrible things to the ones who vote it in if the legislation passes anyway. It's

1.UNCONSITITUTIONAL
2.It's NOT WANTED BY THE PEOPLE

Who are these people to think that they control us because we voted them into an office. It's like we now vote for who our new slave driver is going to be. For me, I will be one of the slaves that rebel. These "masters" who push and pass this healthcare garbage will be lucky to live past another day if it passes. I have every intention on not showing up for work and showing up at either these people's front door of their house or office. I promise they won't like what I've got for them either.

If you were to actually do this, they will find out about this post and it could have terrible ramifications for the ATS community. I'm not saying you shouldn't be free to speak your mind, but this is extreme.

reply to post by junglejake


I hate to tell you this but....

The day dubya got on his soapbox and announced they are attacking
our Freedom and Democracy (total B Sh#t), was the day you lost your
Freedom and Democracy. And not just the US but also UK and AUS.
And every day since, another piece of Freedom and Democracy just falls
off. And Ol' Dubya is no better or worse at being a Dictator, except Dubya
has by his authority killed, mamed and tortured more innocent people than
Saddam ever did.

reply to post by skeptic_al


Some would say the day Lincoln silenced the press and arrested detractors was the day we lost our freedom.

What you speak of was yesterday. This is today. We can't change what Bush did. We can (possibly) change what happens today.