On the ability to see ghost, spirits, visions and hearing voices., page 1
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Topic started on 17-3-2010 @ 09:45 AM by v01i0
I am not sure whether I should post this on psychology board or here, but as it is relevant with paranormal issues, I think that is the proper board; mods will move it if it's inappropriate.

For some time now I've been researching the phenomena of paranormal both in theory and in practice. The critical and skeptic mind often dismisses the whole phenomena as unreal, even non-existent. But who is to say that what happens in human mind is not real? Thoughts have been the prima causa of the human action since the dawn of the intelligence and capability to think. Most projects are thought before they are executed; this is valid also to our daily actions for we tend to plan our next move, some more, other's less.

My own experience regarding the paranormal is limited. I've been on the places which are said to be haunted, yet I've failed in catching such experience that would have convinced me of the reality of the phenomena. I am not that skeptical that my skeptism would object me of observing the matter; I am not denying the phenomena a priori.

But as a empiricist, I cannot lay my trust on second hand testimonials, i.e the tales and experiences of other people, but I must have the experience myself to be able to judge it in a way or another. So, for some time now I've been doing mental excercises, mainly visualizing, meditating and that kind of stuff with the motivation that I would "clense" my mind enough to be able to experience these things. I am unsure whether I've been successful, but I can tell you that the rate of nightly dreams have increased and their quality somewhat altered compared to what I use to have.

I have been able to produce few phenomenas that might fit the category at hand. For example, I heard the birthdate of my brother's children many months before he was born, and he was born 3 weeks early, so I cannot really contribute that to a lucky guess. All in all, I have been able to produce few experiences, that might be categorized as 'clairaudience', but I have been unable to attain visions or see spirits.

I am that much mundane person however, that I don't contribute these events to anything un- or supernatural, but consider them to be perfectly natural. In my cases of clairaudience, I concluded that my subconsciouss has been able to pick up the weak signals - signals that normally won't exceed the consciouss level of sensory observance - and then, through meditation I have been able to extract from the subconsciousness:

In sciences that focuses on neuropsychology and -physiology, itis suggested that human sensory organs (eyes, ears, skin, nose and mouth) are capable of receiving very delicate information; about eyes, it has been suggested that it is capable of perceiving a change in a single photon. (source)


In a moments of deep concentration (like meditation and focusing) or perhaps dreaming - which is said to be the condition, where subconscious organizes daily events in it's preferable order - then these weak signals can surface into the consciousness; perhaps it can happen in form of mental realization or even in a form of vivid images, visions. Also, from personal experience I can tell it can happen as clairaudience. (source)


And in the end, I'd like to paste here an excerpt from Psychological Types by C.G. Jung:
Among primitives, for instance, the imago, the psychic reverberation of the sense-perception, is so strong and so sensurously coloured that when it is reproduced as a spontaneous memory-image it sometimes even has the quality of an hallucination. Thus when the memory-image of his dead mother suddenly reappears to a primitive, it is as if it were hes ghost that he sees and hears. We only "think" of the dead, but the primitive actually perceives them because of the extraordinary sensuousness of his mental images. This explains the primitive's belief in ghosts and spirits; they are what we quite simply call "thoughts". When the primitive "thinks", he literally has visions, whose reality is so great that he constantly mistakes the psychic for the real. Powell says: "The confusion of confusions is that universal habit of savagery - the confusion of the objective with the subjective." Spencer and Gillen observe: "What a savage experiences during a dream is just as real to him as what he sees when he is awake." What I myself have seen of the psychology of the Negro completely endorses these findings. From this basic fact of the psychic realism and autonomy of the image vis-à-vis the autonomy of the sense-perception springs the belief in spirits, and not from any need of explanation on the part of the primitive, which is merely imputed to him by Europeans. For the primitive, thought is visionary and auditory, hence it also has the character of revelation. Thus the sorcerer, the visionary, is always the thinker of the tribe, who brings about the manifestation of the spirits and gods. This also explains the magical effect of thought; it is as good as the deed, just because it is real. (The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, part 6)


So, in my opinion all above explains a small part of paranormal phenomenas in quite natural way. They are based on thought and are much dependant on the subjects ability to imagine. My only hope is, that this will at least slightly open the veil of mysteries for someone.

-v


reply posted on 17-3-2010 @ 11:46 AM by Logarock
Well do you want to discuss the paranormal or the imagination? And no reason to go on about a definition of imagination because I have read what you posted.

In light of what you posted by Jung, here is more Jung.

Dr. Jung Says "Saucers Exist"; Bars Psychological Explanations....New York times July 30 1958 pg 13........."I can only say for certain that the things are not a mere rumore; somthing has been seen." Dr Jung said. "A purely psychological exsplanation is ruled out." Should the extra-terrestrial origin of the UFOs be proven, Dr Jung said it might have the same effect on the human race that superior technology of Western Europeans had on primitive cultures


Which I might add were not the imaginative psychological release of the subconsicous mind. Jung was conserned with a post industrial interpretation of the mind using the primative mind as a sort of lab rat. Although Jung does break here in saying that UFOs are indeed real, his foundational holdings about the mind, explaines modern mans confusion between what is paranormal and what is imagination.

In my opinion the "imagination" is largley influenced by the preception of the real world around us anyway, to whatever degree it effects some and is not simply of a stagnant organic nature. The paranormal is part of the real world but since it is paranormal it must be interpreted as part of dream land by some simply because they are unable to deal with it. Thus it is jetisoned into the unknown, a buffer area of the mind, a playground where realities are delt with, which is what the imagination is. None the less the paranormal does have its operation in real time and space an exstention of the normal or something from without entering into normal and not emanating from the dark places of the human mind.


reply posted on 17-3-2010 @ 01:14 PM by v01i0
reply to post by Logarock



Originally posted by Logarock
Well do you want to discuss the paranormal or the imagination?


In the light of my own experiences, these two may be intervining phenomenas, if not even the same. I admit that my experiences on the issue are far of complete, but so far I am inclined to think that they might be same phenomena. The reasons for this are following:

1) I've never seen a ghost, spirit or anything supernatural or paranormal.

2) The fact that the experiences of distinct people are often contradictory about the same phenomenas, hence my conclusion is that they may be subjective.

3) The capacity of human mind to produce visions and hallucinations, that are often subjective experiences which could not be validated by objective observers.

But I am first to admit that I don't know. But as I said, on the light of my experiences this seems to be the case.

Also, please bear in mind that I am not saying that they aren't real phenomenas, quite contrary, I believe these kind of experiences are real, not necessarily objectively real - by which I mean that they could be perceived by same manner by everyone, like the phenomenas of physical world.

Furthermore I would think that Jung had quite similar view on psychological reality as I do (or should I say that I have quite similar view on these as Jung did). He thought that psychic phenomenas are real, even not objectively provable and I do concur. Jung was incredibly open-minded, which is one of the reasons I regard him with great esteem.

I also want to keep my mind open on various possibilities, but so far I find it hard to accept that in this reality, be it psychological or physical, nothing is paranormal nor supernatural. That simply shouldn't be possible. Supernatural should be something which exceeds the laws of nature, which I suspect to be impossible; again, paranormal as a concept refers something paraller, or even distinct to normal - well, about that one could argue for life time without a satisfying result.

From here to there, with best regards.

-v


reply posted on 17-3-2010 @ 01:26 PM by v01i0
reply to post by Zerra



Umm, I am not denying the phenomenas themselves. But I argue - because lack of better understanding and own experiences - that paranormal and supernatural are both - as a concepts - impossible.

Maybe if we agree that paranormal and supernatural are something that exceed our understanding of laws of nature and reality. But from the perspective of universe (or multiverse, whatever), it simply cannot be. Allow me to throw a poor analogy to make myself more clear; it would be like a computer program with certain specs and specific function - let's say a text processing application in the sake of example - would suddenly begin to do something totally different that it was designed to, for example, playing music and displaying cutting edge 3D graphics.

So maybe paranormal and supernatural are both qualifying concepts from our perspective, but not from an universal viewpoint. I think that advices of you spiritguide are nothing paranormal, but content of your own subconscious, able to know more than your ordinary consciousness. Of course, this only makes sense for me, and it might be completely false to you.

Yours,

-v


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 02:59 AM by v01i0
reply to post by Zerra



Originally posted by Zerra
We can't judge paranormal experiences by our own physical laws since they aren't of the same world.
Trying to make them of the same world is impossible.


Would you clarify please? By "same world" do you mean equivalent to "same reality"? Or are you rather referring to other dimensions? I know it may be mere semantics, but dividing reality into multiple worlds, that cannot be said to be same, is kinda wrong. Universum cannot be divided into parts.

I have no experience of them (dimensions, other realms), so I must suspect their existence. But what you said about color of the shirt kinda made sense, although I suspect I am nevertheless correct. But I would gladly allow experience to prove me wrong!

-v

[edit on 18-3-2010 by v01i0]


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 07:59 AM by v01i0
reply to post by Logarock



Originally posted by Logarock
Smart guy Jung but on this issue he was groping in the dark.


Sorry I earlier missed to reply above comment. Jung actually addresses paranormal in various of his works - for one, I've myself read his autobiography Memories, Dreams, Reflections, in which he candidly explains his own experiences with paranormal. I recall that he explained about various of topics, which I quoted from Internet for sake of clarification:

1) The broken table:
According to Jung (1963/1989), in the summer of 1898, he was studying in his room, with the door half open to the dining room, where his mother was knitting by the window. A very loud crack, like a pistol, surprised them and the circular walnut, solid wood table beside her had split, from the rim to beyond the center. (pp. 104-105)


2) The broken steelknife:
About 2 weeks later, Jung (1963/1989) says he returned home in the afternoon and found his mother, his fourteen-year-old sister, and the maid very upset. About an hour earlier they had heard another deafening crack. This time it had come from the direction of the sideboard, a heavy piece of furniture dating from the early nineteenth century. They had already examined it and could not find anything strange. Jung immediately began examining the sideboard and the entire surrounding area. In the interior of the sideboard, in the cupboard containing the bread basket he found a bread knife, with its steel blade broken to pieces. Its handle in one corner of the basket, pieces of the blade in all other corners of the basket. Carl Jung kept the fragments of that knife, until his death. (pp. 105-106)


3) The haunting:
Jung family experienced a haunting in 1916 by a crowd of spirits from Jerusalem, who proclaimed to “have come back from Jerusalem where we found not what we sought.” Immediately afterward, Jung sat at his desk and began writing. In three days, he had an essay entitled Seven Sermons of the Dead.


The preceding events, if I recall correclty, all took place when Jung began to research contents of his own subconsciousness. It's been a while since I read that book, but I'd assume that the preceeding account is not so invalid.

Also, now a fourth example arises in my mind. I recall he wrote about the experience he had with his cousin Helene Preiswerk, who was said to have mediumistic capabilities. Jung closely observer her mediumistic actions and concluded that se was only having a split personality.

-v

[edit on 18-3-2010 by v01i0]


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 08:32 AM by Zerra
Originally posted by v01i0
reply to
post by Zerra



Originally posted by Zerra
We can't judge paranormal experiences by our own physical laws since they aren't of the same world.
Trying to make them of the same world is impossible.


Would you clarify please? By "same world" do you mean equivalent to "same reality"? Or are you rather referring to other dimensions? I know it may be mere semantics, but dividing reality into multiple worlds, that cannot be said to be same, is kinda wrong. Universum cannot be divided into parts.

I have no experience of them (dimensions, other realms), so I must suspect their existence. But what you said about color of the shirt kinda made sense, although I suspect I am nevertheless correct. But I would gladly allow experience to prove me wrong!

-v

[edit on 18-3-2010 by v01i0]


Yes, I can't really think you not so intelligent enough to understand that two different worlds is actually a 'saying'- just as apples and oranges- is a saying to mean two different things-seperate. They are seperate.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 08:39 AM by v01i0
reply to post by Zerra



Thanks for clarification, Zerra.

Woudn't it be more accurate to say they have different qualities, than that they are actually separate? A bit in way like that forms of matter: Solid, liquid, gas?

I still persist to think that this whole existence is one and inseparable, kind of a system which is a whole.

-v


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 10:08 AM by Logarock
Originally posted by v01i0
reply to
post by Logarock



Originally posted by Logarock
Smart guy Jung but on this issue he was groping in the dark.




Also, now a fourth example arises in my mind. I recall he wrote about the experience he had with his cousin Helene Preiswerk, who was said to have mediumistic capabilities. Jung closely observer her mediumistic actions and concluded that se was only having a split personality.

-v

[edit on 18-3-2010 by v01i0]


Glad you posted that. He thought it was split personality. Thats what I mean by groping.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 10:09 AM by mrsdudara
Perhaps I can give you some understanding or clarity.

Hallucinations are a very different thing all together. With a hallucination, you actually see an object or a person. You can even feel them. You cannot easily discern between reality and the hallucination.

When a person hears or sees what another spirit it is a lot like your imagination. You would hear them like you hear the thoughts in your head. You will see them like you would if you (while not being near it) imagined your refrigerator trying to remember if there was any milk left.

The difference between your imagination and this experience is that with your imagination, you are coming up with that thought. In an instance of clairvoyance you are not the one initiating the thought.

Your mind is constantly going. If you take time to notice you will realize that mind is rarely quiet. It takes a lot of self control to maintain quiet. To sit and not think, is something to practice if clairvoyance is a goal.

The next step is to be able to listen, and then analyze your thoughts. After a while you will be able to more clearly distinguish between your initiated thoughts and thoughts that are not yours. For example you are having a great day singing along to some random song while you clean your room and all of a sudden you start thinking about something else that may change your emotion. Stop and analyze the situation. That made no sense at all. You were fine, and singing then all a sudden your mind is in a totally different direction. That is not normal that is a thought initiated by someone else.

HOWEVER just because that thought was initiated by someone else does NOT mean that the person you are “hearing” is a spirit without a body. (spirits do not die so calling it a dead person makes no sense to me). It could very well be coming from someone around you who is experiencing strong thoughts or emotions, like someone would if they were upset, sad, nervous or excited.

I think if you take a look through history you will see some excellent examples of good “listeners”. Einstein, sir Isaac Newton, and Buddha to name a few were notorious “listeners”. If you read about them the one thing said about all three was how they would sit and disappear in their thoughts. Every time they came out of their “deep thought” they would have something else amazing to share with the world.



reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 10:34 AM by v01i0
reply to post by Logarock



Okay, I respectfully disagree - yet I have no idea whether he (Jung) was totally honest in his accounts, although I have no reason to believe that he wasn't. I think - according my own experiences and theories of uncosciousness - that paranormal has quite much to do with the subconsciousness and even collective side of it.

But if you have personal experiences which gives your confidence to object what I've brought up so far, I'd like to hear about them.

-v


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 10:42 AM by v01i0
reply to post by mrsdudara



I am unsure whom you replied to, but I concur with many points in your post. However, I dunno nothing about spirits; referring to this part of your post:


HOWEVER just because that thought was initiated by someone else does NOT mean that the person you are “hearing” is a spirit without a body. (spirits do not die so calling it a dead person makes no sense to me). It could very well be coming from someone around you who is experiencing strong thoughts or emotions, like someone would if they were upset, sad, nervous or excited.


I tend to think that clairaudience and -voyance might be result of an succesfull access either to one's own subconsciousness or the collective one. This is in accordance with my own experiences.

But I admit it, my experiences are far from complete and I may get surprised with my voyage in unknown. I am looking forward to it.

But I concur, the silence of thought is important thing as then one can easily distinct between thoughts initiated by oneself and the thoughts that come somewhere else.

-v


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 01:22 PM by Zerra
Originally posted by v01i0
reply to
post by mrsdudara



I am unsure whom you replied to, but I concur with many points in your post. However, I dunno nothing about spirits; referring to this part of your post:


HOWEVER just because that thought was initiated by someone else does NOT mean that the person you are “hearing” is a spirit without a body. (spirits do not die so calling it a dead person makes no sense to me). It could very well be coming from someone around you who is experiencing strong thoughts or emotions, like someone would if they were upset, sad, nervous or excited.


I tend to think that clairaudience and -voyance might be result of an succesfull access either to one's own subconsciousness or the collective one. This is in accordance with my own experiences.

But I admit it, my experiences are far from complete and I may get surprised with my voyage in unknown. I am looking forward to it.

But I concur, the silence of thought is important thing as then one can easily distinct between thoughts initiated by oneself and the thoughts that come somewhere else.

-v


I actually agree with Mrsdudara,

I think to suggest that it is only our own conciousness is to suggest something that is just as unlikely as it is to say it is a ghost or spirit- How can your subconcious come up with anything in which it hasn't experienced or seen. The only way you can know what the colour red is is to see it. If your subconcious is coming up with information that has not yet been experienced(experienced, read about, viewed, told of)- it is to say the least - STILL very awesome and powerful psychic ability. Do you understand what I am getting at ?
To say that your mind has 'all' wisdom and knowledge of the past, future, and present is giving us A LOT of credit- one in which science itself would poo poo. I however, believe in life after death- That we are able to communicate with them and they may have a few extra pieces of knowledge that we do not- hence their foresight. I have many experiences that show their insight and future knowledge but it is reserved for my novel. I do have one example in Fate magazine from 2008- About when I got lost in a big city (I'm from a small town). My guides really came through for me. I am blessed to communicate with them.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 01:38 PM by drew hempel
reply to post by v01i0



Here watch this video of John Chang

www.youtube.com...

He's a qigong master -- Jung had the Secret of the Golden Flower which is Chinese meditation -- but it's just the start. Read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" translated by Charles Luk and you get the secret.

When I did intensive training in this with springforestqigong.com... Chunyi Lin -- then I had telekinesis, telepathy, precognition and I saw dead spirits who regularly visit Chunyi Lin to get his help.

Chunyi Lin has recently been verified by the Mayo Clinic and he is coauthor of a Mayo Clinic medical textbook chapter -- Mayo Clinic is the top hospital in the world.

Yan Xin qigong master works with Harvard medical doctors and is published in peer reviewed science journals.


reply posted on 18-3-2010 @ 01:43 PM by v01i0
reply to post by Zerra



Yeah I kinda get your drift. Our brains may consist the whole racial history - there can be 'memories' which we don't recognize as our own. Also - I think I said it before - that our sensory organs i.e eyes, ears, skin and others that I possible fail to mention, are capable of picking up information that we don't consciously perceive.

I tried to explain this in my another thread, Explaining the Occult, The Clairvoyance and -audience, which I'll quote (sorry, feel too lazy to type that all over again!):

n sciences that focuses on neuropsychology and -physiology, itis suggested that human sensory organs (eyes, ears, skin, nose and mouth) are capable of receiving very delicate information; about eyes, it has been suggested that it is capable of perceiving a change in a single photon:

The human eye is very sensitive but can we see a single photon? The answer is that the sensors in the retina can respond to a single photon. However, neural filters only allow a signal to pass to the brain to trigger a conscious response when at least about five to nine arrive within less than 100 ms. If we could consciously see single photons we would experience too much visual "noise" in very low light, so this filter is a necessary adaptation, not a weakness.
source

While I apologize that I for the moment am unable to provide more specific links, I would like to mention that I have also read this information from a recent publication of Neuropsychology. So at least on my mind, it can be established that our sensory organ are able to pick up and react on very weak stimulus that can escape conscious observation. Yet, some of these signals might be picked up and registered by our subconsciousness.


And then the link between the consciousness and subconsciousness:

In a moments of deep concentration (like meditation and focusing) or perhaps dreaming - which is said to be the condition, where subconscious organizes daily events in it's preferable order - then these weak signals can surface into the consciousness; perhaps it can happen in form of mental realization or even in a form of vivid images, visions. Also, from personal experience I can tell it can happen as clairaudience.


What I failed to include in that thread, was the racial consciousness and memory. In our Genes/DNA and inactive parts of brains, as I suspect, we have information related to whole mankind and our family tree.

In my opinion, these are the dead which you refer to. I might be wrong, that I gladly admit. But it is the best explanation I can come up with and also it speaks for my own experiences.

If these paranormal things would be objective in the sense of reality, everyone would be able to experience them, so I suspect them to be subjective, which perhaps can be triggered some electromagnetic fields and such.

I am going to explore the matter further and I am not afraid to admit that my conclusions may be totally wrong. This is the report which I can give at this point of my personal journey. It is not totally based on pure empiricism, but I have also read wide array of scientific, occult and otherwise suspicious literature regarding the matter. It is a hybrid of theory and experiences, in which light I dare to claim to myself that at this moment I cannot come up with better explanation.

I have no agenda to supress it to anyone, but I want share what I have found. See it as you will.

-v
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