The Heros And Frauds of the UFO Movement

reply to post by SaturnFX


hmm not sure if I have heroes or villains. Sagan certainly clouded the issue. But, what is the issue with Greer? I have not kept up. The Full Disclosure Project is kinda crazy no matter what you believe. I would fear for my life if I was him. And, maybe he is. Fear can cause a person to justify many irrational acts.

reply to post by Kandinsky


sometimes jkrog08 banner is across the ATS graphic on my page, sometimes not...always wondered why? Is this an homage to him?

reply to post by ibiubu


Yes it is.

He died last month - so we are honouring him.

He was a good man, one of the best in Ufology.

Originally posted by ibiubu
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

hmm not sure if I have heroes or villains. Sagan certainly clouded the issue. But, what is the issue with Greer? I have not kept up. The Full Disclosure Project is kinda crazy no matter what you believe. I would fear for my life if I was him. And, maybe he is. Fear can cause a person to justify many irrational acts.

People have switched off from Greer for a number of reasons...many of which are due to crazy prices like these. Go ahead and scroll down that page...crazy huh? Kinda kicks the fear factor out the door and down the hall.

If you don't have heroes or villains it shows a balanced attitude to whatever the UFO subject is...that's a good thing

reply to post by Kandinsky


whoa, I see your point. When I go fishing on a charter boat, I get a discount for not catching anything. I still pay for the gas. I'm not sure what CETI's policy is...

My biggest problem with Greer is his eyes...may I ask, do you believe that humanoid ET's are here?

reply to post by ibiubu
I sometimes wonder if humans are here?! I guess the answer is who knows? It's cool to speculate...

reply to post by Kandinsky


Never thought of it that way...now that would be interesting wouldn't it? I believe that my ex-girlfriend may be evidence of that possibility.

Was there ever a bigger idiot than Joe Nickell? This sorry specimen ought to be banned from all airwaves, but he shows up on every other paranormal program produced. So the Shroud of Turin is a "provable fake," because you can make some cheap knockoff by rubbing coloring over a coin that from an extreme distance to someone already predisposed to believe your nonsensical ravings, vaguely resembles the shroud while exhibiting none of its true properties? So "there are no haunted places, only haunted people" explains every paranormal event ever reported? So all exorcist cases are fake because "symptoms of possession are easy to mimic"? Fine, let's see you levitate objects including yourself, make scratches appear on your body with no visible cause, and destroy objects just by touching them! I hope you attend a real exorcism sometime and Satan shoves a pitchfork where you'll never get it out, you insufferable jerk!!!

Jacques Vallee seems a sincere researcher so did Hynek. These two are highly respected. Anything Project Camelot is an alarm these days..especially those interviews with Bob Dean. Besides there are those high profile military and government officials behind the closed doors. Their contribution is what drives the truth movement.

My big UFO heroes are -

Graham W Birdsall former editor of the now defunct UFO Magazine (UK), their UFO Conferences in Leeds were awesome.

And also Martyn Stubbs who is the number 1 source for NASA UFO footage.

Now that it seems the Exorcist case stories don't check out, www.abovetopsecret.com... I can at least see where Joe Nickell is coming from. When it turns out that widely-accepted tales amount to basically nothing, it's easy to dismiss all related stories. I still hold by my statement that he's an insufferable jerk with his attitude of "because some details are false, nothing in the universe exists and I can prove it doesn't." Someday he'll stop believing that he exists, and then he'll disappear...*poof*...the sooner the better!

My opinion of Joe Nickell rises half a notch as a Google search of the Exorcist case brings up what seems to be a fairly well-researched and written book of his. books.google.com...

Wonder if Joe Nickell has ever investigated this www.waymarking.com... and could possibly be induced to get up close and personal with it?

It's all about Derrel Sims. Anyone willing to stare down greys with a "samurai sword" is tops in my book.

Also, don't forget Anne Druffel.

originally posted by: CoriSCapnSkip
Wonder if Joe Nickell has ever investigated this www.waymarking.com... and could possibly be induced to get up close and personal with it?

The topic of this thread is "The Heros And Frauds of the UFO Movement". One of the 30 books Joe Nickell wrote is on UFOs but you seem to be talking about anything but UFOs.

Science doesn't know everything, but one thing that does seem to be true is that it has a long history of explaining things that were previously attributed to superstition. But you're right just because it can explain some things doesn't mean it can explain everything, though there have been scientific inquiries into the paranormal, and UFOs. While many UFOs remain unexplained, that doesn't mean they should necessarily be attributed to alien or paranormal causes.

Regarding that pillar, how would one even go about testing claims that it's cursed? If you touch it, you will die. If you don't touch it, you will still die. So what difference did touching it make? If you can't set up a scientific way to test the claim, then it can't be tested scientifically. Some alleged curses do have scientific explanations however, like the alleged curse on people who opened ancient tombs was actually caused by their exposure to microorganisms they were exposed to when they opened the tomb. This is a completely natural cause of death, far from being any kind of supernatural curse.

didn't see the 'Mirage Men' listed

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1418839525&sr=8-3&keywords=mirage+men

the gist of this is that US gummint people gave false info to UFO researchers to lead them away from actual gummint projects.

originally posted by: CoriSCapnSkip
Was there ever a bigger idiot than Joe Nickell? This sorry specimen ought to be banned from all airwaves, but he shows up on every other paranormal program produced. So the Shroud of Turin is a "provable fake," because you can make some cheap knockoff by rubbing coloring over a coin that from an extreme distance to someone already predisposed to believe your nonsensical ravings, vaguely resembles the shroud while exhibiting none of its true properties? So "there are no haunted places, only haunted people" explains every paranormal event ever reported? So all exorcist cases are fake because "symptoms of possession are easy to mimic"? Fine, let's see you levitate objects including yourself, make scratches appear on your body with no visible cause, and destroy objects just by touching them! I hope you attend a real exorcism sometime and Satan shoves a pitchfork where you'll never get it out, you insufferable jerk!!!

originally posted by: CoriSCapnSkip
Now that it seems the Exorcist case stories don't check out, www.abovetopsecret.com... I can at least see where Joe Nickell is coming from. When it turns out that widely-accepted tales amount to basically nothing, it's easy to dismiss all related stories. I still hold by my statement that he's an insufferable jerk with his attitude of "because some details are false, nothing in the universe exists and I can prove it doesn't." Someday he'll stop believing that he exists, and then he'll disappear...*poof*...the sooner the better!

originally posted by: CoriSCapnSkip
My opinion of Joe Nickell rises half a notch as a Google search of the Exorcist case brings up what seems to be a fairly well-researched and written book of his. books.google.com...

originally posted by: CoriSCapnSkip
Wonder if Joe Nickell has ever investigated this www.waymarking.com... and could possibly be induced to get up close and personal with it?

Did Joe Nickell kick your dog or something?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Bad guys...

* Stephen Greer
* Bob Dean
* Cliff Stone
* Stan Romanek
* Stephen Basset
* Michael Cohen
* Dan Burisch
* Jonathon Reed
* Billy Meiers
* Jeff Peckman
* Prophet Yaweh
* Linda Moulton Howe
* Hoagland
* Project Camelot
* CSETI
* Exopolitics

There's a few more...

Good guys...

* Frank Warren
* Kevin Randle
* Greg Bishop
* Don Ecker
* Dr Richard Haines (my favourite)
* George Knapp
* Paracast Show
* Nick Redfern
* Robert Hastings
* Richard Hall
* Stephen Broadbent
* Bruce Maccabee
* Jkrog (ATS)
* Internos (ATS)
* Karl 12 (ATS)
* Armap (ATS)

If I've missed anyone out I apologise.

I'd put Richard Dolan somewhere in the middle slanting more toward the good guys. I think his intentions are sincere and genuine, but like some researchers, they begin to lose their way after a while.

I'd also put Jacques Vallee, Allen Hynek, Donald Keyhoe and Edward Ruppelt with the good guys.

Where would John Keel, Jim Moseley and Gray Barker fit in all of this? Ive always been a huge fan of that trio (assuming we are also discussing past Ufologists)

a reply to: Bloodydagger

This is the problem with making lists! We always miss out a few and include some who we regret later on.

Even though we like to highlight the 'good guys,' those 'bad guys' have influenced us too.

I don't know if Dolan has lost his way or not. It's part of the journey that we spend some time thinking out loud about ideas that seem crazy or unlikely. He's arrived at the 'breakaway civilisation' because it provides a 'best-fit' explanation that makes sense to him. It's the same as Keel with his demons and Friedman with his quarantine hypothesis. Honest suppositions based on whatever they've read and heard.

Whomsoever gets deep into the study of this field seem to distinguish a separate intelligence at work. After that stage, it's like a Rorschach image and we project our own psyches onto the implications of 'folk from Elsewhere.' The rest is an exercise in confirmation-biased cherry-picking.

I keep my own ideas to myself and at bay with as much scepticism as I can muster.

Heroes: John Keel and Jacques Valle (sp ?) The only ones who I have seen who think outside the box and regard this as something other than aliens and spaceships. Honourable mention to Nick Pope.

Villains: Everyone who is convinced they have "THE" answer both denier and true believer