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The Heros And Frauds of the UFO Movement

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posted on Mar, 17 2010 @ 11:01 PM
Without a doubt Carl Sagan has been the biggest fraud in the UFO movement. It cannot be reasonably denied that he was not in the "UFO movement." He was. True, he was not on the pro side, but the con side.

For a full-frontal view of his early style read his biography, Carl Sagan, by William Poundstone. Sagan lived, breathed and taught UFOs for a time in his early formal schooling days. But at some point he recognized that the government would never let the pro side win and a career on that side was unthinkable. Whether on his own initiative or with help, he learned to be the social gadfly scientist. Strongly dispised by many of his peers, but loved by the public and he loved the attention.

His claim to fame and posterity is that he helped millions of people learn about the real Universe, to secretly prepare them for the eventual acceptance of the UFOs while constantly denying that the ETs that surely were out there could not venture here. Few know it, but he adamently believed that life existed on Mars. And contarary to his usual spiel of "Yes, they are out there, but they can't come here," he openly espoused possibilities of ETs having early contacts with emerging Earth civilizations.

He was a scientific massiah helping to usher in a true New Age. But his loyalty was to his government's position on the phenomena and not to the truth. Some would say the price he paid was a life of quiet frustration that perhaps aided in his untimely demise.

posted on Mar, 25 2010 @ 01:07 PM
Good thread.
I was just listening to the Paracast and they had Jim Marrs on.I feel he's a
credible person and a hero.Stanton Friedman is another hero for me.As for
the villains,one pops to my mind and that's Stan Romanek but there are infinitely more it seems lol

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 04:59 PM
reply to post by Aliensun

Nice post.
I think Sagan has two faces and calculated his words so that not only could he have a healthy career, but also leave enough wiggle room so that if and when things change, people will still see him as a early visionary.

I think he painted himself in a corner however in suggesting no such tech will ever exist for faster than light travel, however, wormholes and other such "jumping" tech would be argued that it does not violate the relativity laws as its not moving fast at all but just bending the structure.

Someone like Sagan does get the intellectuals interested in the field,which ultimately is a good thing...from there, they may springboard deeper into the field and see the different potentials

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 06:55 PM

Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by SaturnFX

Beware of guys like Jaime Mussan. I think every single thing he has ever put out has been debunked in one way or another.

That guy is a disgrace. Stay away from him and his cohorts. Im not quite sure if they are just naive and stupid or brilliant conmen. I much fear, they are both.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by spinalremain

I started reading some free book online from someone named Rael of The Raelian page 38 and my BS meter exploded at like page 2...just reading it like a sci-fi novel now...I wonder if anyone (legally sane) believes his story as more than entertaining tripe.

Beware! Those guys border on being cult - like, some sort of warped religion that caters to new age feeble minded old coots (at least in my country thats their main audience). Luckily they seem to be stuck in the 70's as far as tactics and mythos goes.

When it comes to heros and villains of the ufo scene, i agree, ufowatchdog is always a site to keep in mind

Hall of shame

Hall of fame

(Holy #!, they just updated their long time abandoned site!

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Uluru]

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 08:12 PM
reply to post by Uluru

Thank ya.
I have some issues with their hall of shame list Bob Dean and their denial of him even after admitting that some of what he suggested has since come into public knowledge far before things were declassified.

I like to believe Sitchin, however I reckon much of his theories are bunk.

I find Greer to be an enigma...he pushed through one of the most important events in UFOlogy history, which was the disclosure project. Not everything that happened at the conference was good mind you, and there were some nutty people, but that event brought in enough curiousity from a massive selection of people to where his greed and/or nuttiness that followed doesn't really matter...ignore the man, appreciate the work he did in 2001 kinda thing. (I would have never bothered looking at "this stuff" if I didn't stumble across it)
Greer since has turned into a turnip...and if he is ever to be taken seriously again, he will need to pretty much schedule a mothership to land on the whitehouse lawn...the grays walk out and say Greer is right. Until then...ya, ignore him and what he is pushing.

But seriously...Bob Dean? If anything, he is in a midway point between fame and shame

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 09:30 PM
reply to post by SaturnFX

I dont know about Greer. But seriously, after all he did in the ufo scene, could he go back to practising as a physician and expect to be taken seriousy? I doubt his colleagues or patients would just shrug it off and pretend he didnt get involved in this crazy subject. He mus have lost face value within his profession.

Maybe he is pimping all he has within the ufo community because he cant rely on his income as a doctor anymore (six figures ill wager).

(im just making assumptions here)

posted on Mar, 28 2010 @ 10:55 PM
reply to post by SaturnFX

"Hero" is a ridiculous term to use in association with UFOlogy. A hero is a person distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength and there is no one in UFOlogy worthy of the title. What we have in UFOlogy is simply people who have become familiar with the field but who have no special knowledge. Everything that is known about UFOs can be learned by anyone willing to put in the time.

The field is populated mainly by fools, regardless of their standing. The few "heroes" are not as well regarded as the major fools such as Icke, Dean, Lear, Hoaxland, Lazar, Greer, Hopkins, Marcel (Sr. & Jr.), Mack. The few "heroes" are Kal Korff who outed Meiers, and the Roswell fiasco (read B.S.). Another "hero" Karl Pflock who has done the best research on the Roswell fiasco (read B.S.). Another worthy is Phil Klass. Also Larry Fawcett and Barry Greenwood who originated disclosure before anyone heard of Greer. And, of course, Jacques Fabrice Vallée. There are countless others who will remain anonymous.

The fools outnumber the "heroes".

posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 01:33 AM

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by SaturnFX

"Hero" is a ridiculous term to use in association with UFOlogy. A hero is a person distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength and there is no one in UFOlogy worthy of the title.

Actually, that definition appears quite fitting. A person whom comes forward, risking reputation, ridicule, and perhaps even physical harm simply to get the truth out to the best of their knowledge seems like he/she is undertaking a pretty heroic action.

The safe bet is to classify all skeptics and debunkers as the true heros in exposing the liars and frauds. The heros are the ones that at the moment are considered a fraud because they are without proof, but perhaps in 10-1000 years from now, their legacy will be vindicated and they shared something that the world shunned at the time.

There are incredible amounts of names...some from very high positions, all stating at least the basics which is there has been some degree of ET interference on our planet...when a mountain of reports from every spectrum and every time comes in, its a pretty safe bet to conclude something is going on..what is going on, on the other hand, becomes the muddled area full of frauds, disinformation, confusion, delusions, and truth all in a really big messy pile of slop that the truthseeker is confronted with.

Who is the one telling the truth? hell...for all we know, that Rael guy may be the correct answer...or scientology...until we can get some offical words and disban the secret service then it appears we may not know for awhile.

posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 02:17 AM
Biggest Hero

The first person with the REAL deal(proof) until then......

People to avoid

Hoagland, Lear and Escamilla their sites or sites that promote their work.

posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 09:12 AM

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Biggest Hero

The first person with the REAL deal(proof) until then......

People to avoid

Hoagland, Lear and Escamilla their sites or sites that promote their work.

Lear doesn't have work..he has books, no videos, just stories. You email him and he will flatly defend his theories. Is he for real? hell if I know, he has some extreme views and outlandish claims..but he isn't cashing in on it.

Something to consider..what motivates him? He was famous well before he started chatting about UFOs, etc.

posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 04:46 AM
I respect each of your opinions as to who may / may not, be credible researchers within the field of UFOLOGY. In my 52 yrs, I have had an unquenchable thirst for information in regards to the field, brought on and enforced by mysterious events and memories from my youth.
I have read Randle, Fissel, J.Marrs, N. Redfern, T. Good, J.G Fuller, Col P.J Corso, W.Cooper, G Hancook, J. Glen, G. Cooper, T. Good, W. Streiber, A. Bell, B. Hopkins, S. Greer, Warren & Robbins, ... and the list goes on.
Each have by their "standards" brought light and shadow into the debate, according to the vulnerability of the individuals reading the material.
That being said, "thank them all", for setting standards both high and low in order for each of us to become "aware" of when "creative imagination" blends with possibility, probability and downright fabrication.
I find myself leaning towards two individuals that have brought, (what I believe) to be the most credible informational proof to the discerning investigator. The number one is Martin Stubbs. The subject and his recording of the NASA STS shuttle missions. For those of you that have not seen the documentary, "The Secret NASA Transmissions", it is free for your viewing online at". See it for yourself,"before" you comment one way or the other.
The second, Col Philip Corso.. continues to be proven truthful. Having spoken of technology in his book and interviews that just now finding their way into our electronics, years after his retirement and well after his death.
William Cooper is another that I hold in high regards for the information that he donated to the people... a good man died on a sad day.

posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 06:17 AM
Could someone point me in the direction of Jkrog? I'm unfamiliar with his work.

posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Scope and a Beam
Could someone point me in the direction of Jkrog? I'm unfamiliar with his work.

JKrog is an absent member of ATS. His favourite thread (the one he kept plugging lol) is here...

The ATS UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory. Quite a few of the threads in there were written by him...(2 by me yay!)

* The Gorman UFO dogfight.

* The 1952 Trementon UFO Fleet

* The Chiles-Whitted UFO Incident: Eastern Airlines Flight 576 and The “Rocket Ship”

He's got another collection over at Living Moon's site...JKROG08's Collection

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 07:32 AM
Thanks for that, I was reading that he died, very sad, RIP.

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 09:12 AM
I like this thread.....S&F!!

There are a lot of names mentioned here that I never heared of before. I will certainly read about what they have to say...especially the ones that appear on the heroes lists.

I think it is very difficult to judge many of these persons..unless it is obvious that they are opportunists or have to much imagination.

It is a pitty to see people like Greer discredit themselves by chasing money and their own beliefs once they have found a stage to operate from. They lost objectivity I admired them for.

Richard Hoagland is trying to hold on to scientific objectivity but i can see him struggle to keep up that quality in his work. It has become very easy for him to make a lot of money with filling a book full with crap.

Still, hero or not, among all of those names I still have to see the first with real tangible and concrete evidence that will cause no doubt. Evidence that stares you in face and is no way around. that light they are all losers.

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 02:04 PM
STANTON FRIEDMAN ! The best and most credible Hero, Hands Down! Mr. Friedman has been a hero of mine since the early 80's. UFOLogy would not be where it is without Stanton's Charisma, passion, credability, and professionalism.

As of recent the most annoying chicken neck noisy nasty negativist, has to be that bow tie wearing stooge Bill Neigh, " I must deny" the Science Guy.
Man! when I saw him on Larry King I got so angry I spilt my wine and dripped Blue cheese and buffalo wing sauce on my Couch. As far as I see it, Bill Neigh has to be the ultimate jerk in the UFO arena. And he owes me a couch cushion stain removing session.
The goofy Chicken neck!

Take Care

[edit on 8-4-2010 by jasonspaz]

[edit on 8-4-2010 by jasonspaz]

[edit on 8-4-2010 by jasonspaz]

[edit on 8-4-2010 by jasonspaz]

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 02:48 PM

Some things he says sound credible, then he mentions reptile elite?

I used to feel the same way. I had identified government corruption at a young age, but his reptile ET claims I was skeptical about... 10 years after hearing of David Icke, I'm now in contact with these reptiles... I dont know about shapeshifting and reptile DNA in us or people such as the UK royal family... But I do know from personal experience now the reptiles are out there...

I am now in contact with: Reptiles who are hostile, Greys who are hostile, Greys who are very lightside oriented(grey skinned races I am told by my ET friends are common in the natural universe), andromedans Colleir speaks of, and finally the Nordics(my main ET contacts).

I will post my story as soon as I can post my own thread. Probably will get flames but whatever. Its interesting IMO. Probably moreso to me due to them deleting my memory of it often, and I know its real, so i can relive the memories of it.

Anyway, to my main point:
It's a hard world to be in if you are a true ET contactee. People label you insane almost instantly. "get psychiatric help" I have heard many times. 'you need medication' i have heard dozens of times.

On top of all that you have ET mind control operations taking place that are vast in number. Some people will attack me, by now its pretty obvious to me they are mind controlled by either the greys or the reptiles...
Government disinformation working against you. Think tanks coming up with ways to debunk your stories.

You have the greys/reptiles/other working against you. Deleting memories, implanting memories.

You have the good ETs making deals to have you produce disinformation most likely debunkable to protect you. It's not check mate for the bad ETs but you have a lot to go against....

Honestly I could only recognize like 3 or 4 names out of all the names posted. But I can't help but pretty much KNOW a lot of the people being shown in a negative light do not deserve such. For example Alex Colleir. My ET friends say he's genuine. David Icke too, although he gets fed disinformation at times. Both of them wholeheartedly are for the cause, and give it their heart and dedication. Only to be labeled frauds by people who obviously are not in the loop, no matter how researched.

Even the best contactees out there are prone to disinformation and being lied to, primarily made in deals by the benevolents to protect them.

By looking at some of those lists, it seems to me people want more names with a rank, than a true contactee preaching what they have been taught. Kind of a shame. But I do agree in a sense, people like Philip J Corso = hero in the field. If you can line up 10-20 quotes of Astronauts, former presidents, ex military, ex cia, you have a pretty dam good case for the cause. The war over beliefs.

The good ETs I know all want more people out there to believe. Or at least give it some true thought. They love it when someone is curious about ETs. It's one of the first 'missions' they have given me. To increase ET awareness is to help make first contact go smoother. And possibly sooner if the date is not set in stone.

One great thing about the ET situation is its the biggest secret on the planet, yet, if you do the research you can almost verify top secret. they are here, and in a big way.

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 03:07 PM
reply to post by Retorque

If you want to REALLY find out about Col. Corso, watch my buddy George Knapp's hours of interviews with him available on our Media Portal here:

There's eight parts, you'll notice links to all eight in the lower part of the video player.


posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 04:22 PM
reply to post by Springer

Thanks Springer....that is something I will certainly do. Besides his long intro I always liked this guy doing his thing on C2C. He should have more time on C2C.

posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 11:56 PM
I recommend:

-Jacques Vallee
-James McDonald
-J. Allen Hynek
-Terry Hanson
-Peter Sturrock
-Bernard Haisch
-Michael Swords

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