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The Heros And Frauds of the UFO Movement

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posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


Dude, Wilcock thinks he is reicarnated Edgar Cayce. C'mon? How can anything he says be accurate if that's his gig? He states that the US has a device that instantly teleports you to Mars. I think he is a loon.


I agree. That's why I asked.
Someone put him in his hero list.


Forget what I just wrote !

I just misinterpreted it

[edit on 14-3-2010 by Sinter Klaas]




posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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The man that killed 2 alien greys - Phil Schneider

This is my hero in the Alien field, i haven't even checked to see if this guys been debunked because i just love his story, Even if he was lying i still believe him



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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The man that killed 2 alien greys - Phil Schneider

This is my hero in the Alien field, i haven't even checked to see if this guys been debunked because i just love his story, Even if he was lying i still believe him



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by CodenameDoeB
 


The problem I have with Schneider's story is the fact that the Gov. let him (a geologist) go into the subterranian hole with a Walther ppk. Why in the hell would a geologist be carrying a firearm? He was supposedly with black berets. Wouldn't their presence suffice? He wouldn't be allowed to be carrying a firearm with the military there. Right?

What do I know? Just seems a tad fishy to me.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:38 PM
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And his rock analysis training was apparently better than the military's training! The secret spec ops all died while he single handedly handed the alien's ass to them. A geologist lmao! Indiana Schneider. It's just too over the top for me. They shot him in the chest with a ray gun and he lived. He defeated the aliens then defeated the Cobalt poisoning Cancer they ray gunned him with. hahahahaha



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by CodenameDoeB
The man that killed 2 alien greys - Phil Schneider

This is my hero in the Alien field, i haven't even checked to see if this guys been debunked because i just love his story, Even if he was lying i still believe him


Frankly, the only thing that Schneider has added to the field is a mysterious death. That, in my opinion, is the only thing worth doublechecking in the whole story.

large opium den cave dwelling grey erm...are they even supposed to be aliens considering they are from this planet...or are they more like just middle earth entities?

Bah, who cares. I listened to his story...first his retarded shoot first, ask questions later, then as someone pointed out, how many geologists need to be packing heat, especially with military men beside them...and then there comes the whole numbers game...I put him in the same catagory as Billy M.

I still think Greer is not a complete fraud...but thats simply from what I stated...the bringing together of 2001's disclosure project. That alone brought tons of level headed people into the field...and the man needs props for that. (and he got it and continues to get it with tons of cash coming at him)



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Very interesting replies indeed.

I know these are peoples opinions, and they are for all kinds of different reasons, but I draw the line when someone says that Richard Dolan is a fraud.

He has devoted his whole life to this subject.

This is the dedication in the front of his first book "UFO's and the National Security State" Vol 1 1941 to 1973.

Quote:

"To Michael and Elaine (his daughters)

The Reason, it matters"

Quote from the same titled book, however covering 1973 to 1991, this is the last sentence in the book.

Quote:

"All of the efforts by those keeping this matter secret will be in vain, for the end of secrecy will come as a terrible swift sword. Destiny will not be denied"

I ask you, read these two books, and then make your decision.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by wesmilne
Hi all i have seen this picture of a so called ufo picture on ebay and wondered what you think because it looks real and am thinking on biffing or am i a fool if i do, i have got some other stuff i bought on ebay and turned out to be a load of rubbish i just wanted some advice from someone who might have a little bit more experience.
(cgi.ebay.com... a)


Go get Richard Dolan' two books, available from him directly, or Amazon. from there on in, you will have been brought up to speed, well up until 1991 where his second book ends.

BTW, I hope Vol 3 is almost finished which covers 1991 till NOW!!!



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 05:40 PM
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It's been a long time since I've really followed the UFO world, but based on my childhood fascination I'd have to say Donald Kehoe, J. Allen Hynek, Jacques Valle and Carl Jung are all in the "heroes" category. George Adamski gets singled out for creating a hoax that lives on in one form or another until this day, a palpable villain. I also submit a special citation for "Project Blue Book." Although it was a given that the Air Force was going to conclude that there was nothing to worry about, they did take the question seriously, developed a methodology of inquiry and eventually concluded that all but a certain percentage could be explained. That small percentage makes the entire Project worthwhile, of course.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 06:36 PM
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Many heros have been mentioned before, but i will add some names:
IsaacKoi [ATS]
Gazrok [ATS]
Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos
Kentaro Mori


[edit on 14/3/2010 by internos]



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Hey Kandinsky I'm honoured.



Here are some more goodies that deserve a mention:


Dr James E McDonald.

Timothy Good.

Gary Heseltine.

Lawrence Fawcett.

Barry J. Greenwood.

Carl Feindt.

Ted Phillips.

Major Donald Keyhoe.

Gildas Bourdais.

Anthony Dodd.

Dominique Weinstein.

Francis Ridge.

John Greenewald Junior.

Terry Hansen.

Angelia Joiner.

Brad Sparks.

Peter Sturrock.

Clas Svahn.

Dr. Bernard Haisch.

Albert Chop.

Gordon Creighton.

Dr. Ivan Sanderson.

Jenny Randles.

Yves Sillard.

Jan Aldrich.

Don Ledger.

Jerome Clark.





...





Baddies:

Major Hector Quintanilla.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 11:01 PM
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I would just like to point out that we would have no major frauds if this subject wasn't filled with ignorant, gullible people. Don't take that as an insult, because it's not. It's reality.

Any moron that gets in front of an audience an says ANYTHING outlandish will have throngs of people following them. It's that simple.

I don't think there are any heroes in the "UFO Movement". It's like this: the UFO movement has gone nowhere and done nothing for years. It is plagued by a community that ensures the subject remains laughable through their actions. And all the usual UFO heroes only touch on this subject. Why? Because they can't really piss off their core audience with the truth.

Get someone that stands up, points out the ridiculousness in this community and works to wipe it out...that's who will get my hero designation. The guy who blazes a path that eventually leads to this subject being taken seriously by Joe Public....that's my hero. Problem is that can't happen until we take out the trash.

Oh, and Internos is my hero...forgot to mention that!



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by DJW001
I also submit a special citation for "Project Blue Book." Although it was a given that the Air Force was going to conclude that there was nothing to worry about, they did take the question seriously, developed a methodology of inquiry and eventually concluded that all but a certain percentage could be explained. That small percentage makes the entire Project worthwhile, of course.



Hey DJW001, I agree about Major Donald Kehoe, Dr J. Allen Hynek and Dr Jacques Vallee but am not so sure about Project Bluebook.

There are some 'highly dubious' sceptical explanations they came up with here and Richard Dolan makes some interesting points below:





Blue Book Cooks Its Books



Project Bluebook

It was an organization that

(1) claimed to be the sole repository of military UFO reports, but was not;

(2) was under orders to use any means necessary to identify UFOs as conventional objects, regardless of how strained the explanation became;

(3) intentionally misled the public with meaningless and even fictitious statistics; and

(4) had a barely breathing investigative capability.


The conclusion is self-evident: Blue Book was the mask worn by the Air Force for public viewing. Its UFO reports and evaluations – intellectually dishonest in the extreme – can therefore have no scientific value whatsoever. The fact that the U.S. military and other official sources continue to use them tells us more about the organizations than it does about UFOs.


Link

NICAP list - Project Bluebook 'actual unknowns'

Full List - 1,600 incidents (pdf)


Cheers.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 06:15 AM
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I think Don Ecker is one of the best men involved with UFO studies.

He currently hosts Dark Matters radio and the way he handles this topic on his show is amazing. I don't think there is anyone in radio that is as good as he is at doing what he does, as often as he does.

Ecker calls BS when he sees it and has done an outstanding job of helping to sort out the signal from the noise.

You can get a bunch of his older shows here at the paracast forums. He posted the best ones - you should get these while they are still online:

www.theparacast.com...

Get this:

John Lear called into Dark Matters radio last month and ran off as many of his theories as possible in 8 minutes and then Don Ecker told him he was sounding like Bill Cooper... nuts like bill cooper.


"I gotta tell you buddy, I think you should uh probably go back and rethink some of this stuff because John, you were sounding about as NUTS as Bill Cooper there"

Lear said he was hard of hearing and asked Ecker to repeat himself, so Ecker said it twice...

"I said: You are sounding about as GODDAMN CRAZY as Bill Cooper!!!" , then Lear acted like he didn't hear - and the call was over.

It was a fun show.
=



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


Although Project Bluebook had its shortcomings and clear bias, it took the subject seriously. When the Air Force takes something seriously, the public takes them seriously. If the media cover them at all now, UFO sightings are sandwiched between the weather and fluff pieces about baby animals at the zoo.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by DJW001
 


DJW001, thanks for the reply and I couldn't agree more about the corporate media - very sad state of affairs.


Theres some interesting reading at the thread below about the conception of Project Bluebook - apparently after the Fort Monmouth incident, Pentagon General Charles P. Cabell disbanded Project Grudge and completely restructured UFO policy within the Pentagon and USAF:





Fort Monmouth UFO - 21st September, 1951

The incident caused a major stir at the Pentagon and a restructuring of the Air Force UFO Project from GRUDGE to BLUE BOOK. The incident also had something to do with the project changing policies to restrict release of further information on UFOs.

The Fort Monmouth UFO Case.


Cheers.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 08:30 AM
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Heroes:

Phil Schenider(story holds alot of weight with me, paid the ultimate price)
William Cooper(knew many secrets he shouldnt of known)
JFK (it was probable that he was going to expose the extraterrestrial agenda)
Al Bielek(Though some of his stories are far out, where there is smoke there is fire)
Jacques Vallee(great author on the scientific phenomenon)
Carl Sagan(interesting)

Frauds:
NASA(these dudes know something if anyone does)
Jose Escamilla(mylar baloons? is that all the better you can do?)
J Allen Hynak(he knew more than what was told)
Any other gov official until they tell the people the truth they deserve to know
Stanton Friedman(something tells me this guy is paid off)

[edit on 15-3-2010 by Jdawg9909]



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 09:00 AM
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I dont have a list of good guys and bad guys, some ive heard of, george adamski, miers, etc, others ive never heard of. I tend to examin each case I read about on its own merits, aka, I think for me, nobody else.
The roswell case does interest me, in that seems to be something not quite right about it, that I cant put my finger.
Evidence is there, that military made an announcement about a flying saucer, perhaps a violition of chain of command. It was later pulled.
Military did go there, though this itself means nothing, and unfortunately, as always, no physical evidence, just testimony of people who may or may not have reliable memory of the incident.

Never the less, the case intrigues me. Perhaps im subconciously impressed by the sheer fame of the incident? Maybe thats why it sticks in the mind more than most.
I do think people encounter unknowns from time to time, but I think you can assume 99% pure bunkum, by deliberate BSers and hoaxes and those who desperately want to beleive whatever it is they beleive about them.
Just as many desperately want to deny. Perhaps they fear?



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Jdawg9909
Frauds:

J Allen Hynak(he knew more than what was told)




Jdawg - Dr Hynek may have been a paid mouthpiece at the beginning of his 'debunking' career with the USAF but as time went by he completely reversed his opinion on the subject (see 14:00 and 20:00).





Google Video Link




"Before I began my association with the US Air Force, I had
joined my scientific colleagues in many a hearty guffaw
at the "psychological postwar craze" for flying saucers
that seemed to be sweeping the country and at the naivete
and gullibility of our fellow human beings who were being
taken in by such obvious "nonsense." It was almost in a
sense of sport that I accepted the invitation to have a
look at the flying saucer reports....."

"I had started out as an outright 'debunker,' taking
great joy in cracking what seemed at first to be puzzling
cases. I was the arch enemy of those 'flying saucer
groups and enthusiasts' who very dearly wanted UFOs to be
interplanetary. My own knowledge of those groups came
almost entirely from what I heard from Blue Book
personnel; they were all "crackpots and visionaries.'"


"Now, however, documentation which puts the UFO-
U.S. government controversy in quite a new light has
become available. The authors have made revealing use of
documents released through the mechanism of the Freedom
of Information Act and other data which have been made
available to them, often through private sources, which
show that the CIA and NSA protestations of innocence and
lack of interest in UFOs are nothing short of
prevarication."

"The reader must judge for himself or herself just
how far these implications extend, but certainly no one
can deny any longer that various intelligence agencies of
our government were long cognizant of UFOs and the global
extent of this phenomenon. Official dispatches from our
embassies and air bases in other countries to these
agencies, to the State Department, and even, on occasion,
to the White House, bear incontrovertible witness to
this."

"For the government to continue to maintain that
UFOs are nonexistent in the face of the documents already
released and of other cogent evidence presented in this
book is puerile and in a sense an insult to the American
people."



Dr J Allen Hynek, Chairman of the Department of Astronomy at Northwestern University and scientific consultant for Air Force investigations of UFOs from 1948 until 1969 (Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book).


Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX


I started reading some free book online from someone named Rael of The Raelian foundation...at page 38 and my BS meter exploded at like page 2...just reading it like a sci-fi novel now...I wonder if anyone (legally sane) believes his story as more than entertaining tripe.


Hey Saturn... About 2 hours from where I live there is a colony of his followers... Several hundred people.. And yes they mean it. LOL. Those are the guys who hail cloning as some kind of ecclestial Heilslehre... Rael is about as crazy as it gets. I think of them more as a pseudoreligious cult that has incoroporated some form of the UFO myth into their belief system. They're really something different than Dean, Friedman and the rest. Totally different. They share some traits with snake oil sellers like Wilcock et al., but they have taken it several steps further. They have gotten rid of any semblance of coherence or any facade of scientific-mindedness.

Anyways... I didn't even know that Rael was known internationally.. I always thought of them as a local phenoma...

Great thread by the way, I was rather intruiged to learn more about you and the formation of your interest in UFO's. Definitly worth a star and a thread.



[edit on 15-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 15-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]



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