The Heros And Frauds of the UFO Movement, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 16 times
Topic started on 14-3-2010 @ 03:00 PM by SaturnFX
Heya ATSers.

I remember when I first started looking into the UFO field...how it was full of fascinating stories. I seen it initially as a highly creative fantasy full of time travellers, reptilian people, flying hubcaps, and all sorts of nonsense. I, being a sci-fi lover, kept looking into the field to see what other nutty stuff they believed in for purposes of storys.
I came across the Disclosure project and it was my first realization that not only were "they" serious, but maybe the whole field wasn't as quacky as I originally thought.

It took me ages before realizing that for the most part, the "mainstream" believers did not believe in Billy Meyers, David Icke, etc...and that there were sensible people whom were seeking answers to a very real phenomona.

So, I always wondered...who are the heros and frauds of the movement itself? The ones that bring in alot more people than they push away...and whom have the strongest credentials to be stating what they state.


I know Greer has mixed reviews....but I personally consider him in the hero catagory (Hero Circa 2001) for him organizing TDP. His latest work puts him, in my opinion, right into the fraud department, but the disclosure project itself has given him a lifetime pass in the hero department (so long as you basically ignore everything he has done since)

The problem with Frauds is that the best fraud contains 70-80% proof, and the last 20% moves people into a false area...meaning there is value in even understanding the frauds, so long as you know where to stop listening (harder said than done).

So, who are your heros and frauds in this field?
Bob Dean? Project Camelot? Icke? Lear?

and why are they a fraud or hero to the movement.
Maybe this thread will help out some newbie to the UFO movement know who to avoid and who to investigate

Flag me if you think its important to state who the frauds and heros are...I think more flags = more responses or something.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:24 PM by spinalremain
reply to post by SaturnFX


Good post. There are many mixed reviews about the ppl in the field that you mentioned above.

The serious researchers tend to seperate themselves from the likes of Billy Maier and David Icke. David Icke is really entertaining, but I often wonder if the man is solely interested in making a buck or if he honestly believes in lizard men and is mentally disturbed. Some things he says sound credible, then he mentions reptile elite? I don't know what his deal is really.

Most of the stuff you see tends to be all the same. Lecturers selling books and such to make money and feed off the gullible.

I'd say the only 2 heroes of the field are the late Allan Heinek and Stanton friedman. These are the only 2 who do real research and never jump to silly conclusions based on rumor.

I myself really enjoy William Cooper. When I first read "Behold A Pale Horse" I was blown away. Many will tell you that he was crazy too, but I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that he did in fact know things which he put in his book. Some will tell you that he used Weekly World News in the book, but that is not true. See for yourself.

It's really personal preference. Either a reasearcher strikes a chord with you or the BS meter goes haywire. Most if not all are very entertaining though.

Beware of guys like Jaime Mussan. I think every single thing he has ever put out has been debunked in one way or another.

ATS is probably the greatest source in determining the who's who in the field. So many members here really know what they're talking about and I am sure we have all learned a great deal since joining. It's nice to read everyone's opinion and not just have a bowl of believers spouting off about lizards trying to mentally numb us all while Obama secretly Communizes the world.

Good luck with your quest for answers


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:32 PM by SaturnFX
reply to post by spinalremain


Difficult to find the thread of truth amid the mountain of mistruths...but I guess that was the point overall.

Always liked Friedman. He definately puts forth some rational arguements against the pseduoskeptics. I also liked Kaku in general (not a UFOlogist, but he keeps a relatively open mind about the subject).

I personally would hope for a Dean/Greer universe just from the coolness factor..but my hopes matters not, what matters is the truth thats as clear as mud.

I started reading some free book online from someone named Rael of The Raelian foundation...at page 38 and my BS meter exploded at like page 2...just reading it like a sci-fi novel now...I wonder if anyone (legally sane) believes his story as more than entertaining tripe.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:38 PM by spinalremain
reply to post by SaturnFX


I don't know how long you have been around ATS, but if you want to read some really entertaining/hillarious stuff, read the "Violent Encounter With Alien Being" thread, and the famous Sleeper thread "Are ET real? As real as The Nose on Your Face"

Those 2 threads are so entertaining

Neither OP is with us anymore here at ATS. Remind yourself of that fact while reading them



reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:41 PM by SaturnFX
Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by SaturnFX


I don't know how long you have been around ATS, but if you want to read some really entertaining/hillarious stuff, read the "Violent Encounter With Alien Being" thread, and the famous Sleeper thread "Are ET real? As real as The Nose on Your Face"

Those 2 threads are so entertaining

Neither OP is with us anymore here at ATS. Remind yourself of that fact while reading them


I actually came to ATS Via John Lear's interview with project camelot where he mentioned this sleeper chap (said he was real)...so, that thread was like the first thread I read. I didnt find anything overly compelling.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:50 PM by OnceReturned
S&F, good topic.

I think that the biggest frauds are easily identifiable because they are so busy trying to make themselves into professional champions of the ET explanation.

We know that truely interesting sightings are few and far between. Anyone who turns out a new UFO clip or pic every two weeks is full of it. Also, the people who tell completely outrageous stories that cannot possibly be believed by anyone who does not already accept the ET explanation hook, line, and sinker, cannot be considered heros. They are doing nothing to advance the discussion. They tell good stories to people who will believe anything about ETs.

I think that the biggest heros are the most rigorous skeptics; I myself being a skeptic. These people are needed to tone down the crazyness. The field would have absolutely no validity all if there wasn't anyone actively calling BS on the frauds and Chinese Lanterns. I also think that people who promote scientific, reasonable, respectful and vigorously honest debate are perhaps more important than the people who take sides.

All that being said, Heros:
Buzz Aldrin, Edgar Mitchel, Travis Walton and all others who take risks in order to promote what they believe to be important truths, ATS and all other balanced discussion forums, MUFON and all other reporting and information gathering services, The History Channel and all other mainstream outlets paying real attention to the issue, Carl Sagan for making sure that want to know more than we want to believe, Phage and all other honest, outspoken, no nonsense skeptics for keeping us from deluding ourselves, and most importantly everyone who approaches the issue with a cautious and open mind.

Frauds:
You know exactly who you are.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:51 PM by spinalremain
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by SaturnFX


I don't know how long you have been around ATS, but if you want to read some really entertaining/hillarious stuff, read the "Violent Encounter With Alien Being" thread, and the famous Sleeper thread "Are ET real? As real as The Nose on Your Face"

Those 2 threads are so entertaining

Neither OP is with us anymore here at ATS. Remind yourself of that fact while reading them


I actually came to ATS Via John Lear's interview with project camelot where he mentioned this sleeper chap (said he was real)...so, that thread was like the first thread I read. I didnt find anything overly compelling.


You gotta read the book called "A Day With an Extraterrestrial" by Sleeper. He flies around the galazy having sex with Uranus women and buys a watch behind the Sun in the mall! It's absolutely hysterical.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:54 PM by SaturnFX
reply to post by wesmilne


The artifacting around the object is not the same as the rest of the picture.,..aka, its a photoshop.
The red lines around it is more believable.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 03:58 PM by Kandinsky
reply to post by SaturnFX

Bad guys...



* Stephen Greer
* Bob Dean
* Cliff Stone
* Stan Romanek
* Stephen Basset
* Michael Cohen
* Dan Burisch
* Jonathon Reed
* Billy Meiers
* Jeff Peckman
* Prophet Yaweh
* Linda Moulton Howe
* Hoagland
* Project Camelot
* CSETI
* Exopolitics

There's a few more...

Good guys...



* Frank Warren
* Kevin Randle
* Greg Bishop
* Don Ecker
* Dr Richard Haines (my favourite)
* George Knapp
* Paracast Show
* Nick Redfern
* Robert Hastings
* Richard Hall
* Stephen Broadbent
* Bruce Maccabee
* Jkrog (ATS)
* Internos (ATS)
* Karl 12 (ATS)
* Armap (ATS)

If I've missed anyone out I apologise.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 04:20 PM by Arbitrageur
I think the UFOwatchdog lists are a good starting point for discussion,

Hall of Fame:
www.ufowatchdog.com...
Jerome Clark
Scott Corrales
Peter B. Davenport
Richard M. Dolan
Don and Vicki Ecker
Russ Estes
James Fox
Leslie Friedman
Stanton T. Friedman
Dr. Richard Haines
Richard Hall
Dr. J. Allen Hynek
Dr. Michio Kaku
George Knapp
James Moseley
Kevin Randle
Peter Robbins
Chris Rutowski
Fife Symington
Dr. Jacques Vallee
Kenny Young

Now does this mean you can believe everything all the hall of famers tell you? NO!!! Some of them are definitely wrong about some things, I know of flaws in work done by Stanton Friedman and Dr. Richard Haines just to name a couple, but they still have way more credibility than many other researchers so I wouldn't argue they should be on the hall of shame instead. Fife Symington is unique because he's on BOTH the hall of fame and the hall of shame, appropriately I think:

Hall of Shame:
www.ufowatchdog.com...

Adrian
Alien Autopsy
Andrew Basiago
Stephen Bassett
Art Bell
Brian Bessent
Brigitte Boisselier
Richard Boylan
Sylvia Browne
Dan Burisch
Michael Cohen
Ed Dames
Bob Dean
Carlos Diaz
Jim Dilettoso
Peter A. Gersten
Robert Ghostwolf
Bruce Goldberg
Steven Greer
Paola Harris
Michael Hawkins
Richard C. Hoagland
Michael Horn
Linda Moulton Howe
Dan Iaria
David Icke
International UFO Congress
Lynne Kitei
Philip Klass
Kal K. Korff
Bob Lazar
Nancy Leider
Shirley MacLaine
Jaime Maussan
Stacey Allen McGee
Billy Meier
Melissa Ann Morton
Sean David Morton
Kate Mucci
Daniel Munoz
Joe Nickell
George Noory
Urandir Oliveira
Jeff Peckman
Dirk Vander Ploeg
Rael
Jonathan Reed
Harold Chacon Rodriguez
Stan Romanek
Michael Salla
Ray Santilli
Donald Schmitt
Lee Shargel
Zecharia Sitchin
Robert A.M. Stephens
Wendelle Stevens
Pamela Stonebrooke
Fife Symington
Jill Tarter
Alfred L. Webre
Prophet Yahweh

The only one I disagree with there is Jill Tartar, as the example she gave of how sightings can be misidentified is not that egregious, but she's really not a UFO researcher anyway so that's probably not too important how you classify her.

You can go to those links and get more commentary about WHY they are on the hall of fame or the hall of shame. I think that's a pretty decent stab at it in spite of my not agreeing with it 100%.


reply posted on 14-3-2010 @ 04:21 PM by spinalremain
reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Dude, Wilcock thinks he is reicarnated Edgar Cayce. C'mon? How can anything he says be accurate if that's his gig? He states that the US has a device that instantly teleports you to Mars. I think he is a loon.
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