Vinča-Tordos script, page 1

I did a search and came up with nothing, so I found it a little surprising as I have learned so much from Ancient and Lost Civilizations Forum.

My skills in the ATS downloading world is limited and will not do this thread justice.
So if anyone can assist with any research on this it will greatly be appreciated.

www.omniglot.com...

Old European / Vinča / Danube script Origin These symbols have been found on many of the artifacts excavated from sites in south-east Europe, in particular from Vinča near Belgrade, but also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia. The artifacts date from between the 7th and 4th millennia BC and those decorated with these symbols are between 8,000 and 6,500 years old. Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.
www.omniglot.com...

What!? That is awesome.

www.experiencefestival.com...

Old European Script - Controversial issues The Vinča markings have not attracted as much linguistic attention as recognized but undeciphered scripts such as Crete's Linear A and Easter Island's Rongorongo. However, the Vinča material has still managed to stir some controversies of its own. The primary advocate of the idea that the markings represent writing, and the person who coined the name "Old European Script", was Marija Gimbutas (1921-1994), an important 20th century archaeologist and premier advocate of the notion that the Kurgan culture of Central Asia was an early Indo-European culture. Later in life she turned her attention to the reconstruction of a hypothetical pre-Indo-European Old European culture, which she thought spanned most of Europe. She observed that neolithic European iconography was predominantly female — a trend also visible in the inscribed figurines of the Vinča culture — and concluded the existence of a matristic (not matriarchal) culture that worshipped range of goddesses and gods. (Gimbutas did not posit a single universal Mother Goddess.) She also incorporated the Vinča markings into her model of Old Europe, suggesting that they might either be the writing system for an Old European language, or, more probably, a kind of "pre-writing" symbolic system. Most archaeologists and linguists disagree with Gimbutas' interpretation of the Vinča signs as a script: it is all but universally accepted among scholars that the Sumerian cuneiform script is in fact the earliest form of writing. A rather odder controversy concerns the theories of Dr. Radivoje Pešić from Belgrade. In his book The Vinča Alphabet, he proposes that all of the symbols exist in the Etruscan alphabet, and conversely, that all Etruscan letters are found among Vinča signs. However, these claims are not taken seriously by scholars, who demonstrate that the Etruscan alphabet is derived from the West Greek Alphabet, which in turn is derived from the Phoenician writing system. This is however not completely incompatible with Pešić's views as he claims that the Phoenician writing system descended from Vinčan. Pešić's critics have claimed that his support for the continuity theory, which claims a Slavic presence in the Balkans far earlier than the usually accepted date, is motivated by a nationalistic agenda; hence, for instance, his claim that the poet Homer must have spoken a Slavonic dialect (Pešić, 1989).
www.experiencefestival.com...

Wow. There seems to be quiet a controversy surrounding these dated ancient markings.


www.prehistory.it...

Economic and religious stimuli The growth of permanent settlements dependent on the cultivation of crops not only sowed the seeds of incipient social stratification but also resulted in significant elaboration of religious ideology. It is probable that eventual techno-economic developments at sites like Tordos and Vinča laid the foundation for craft specialization as well as for a formalized religious structure. Innovations in technology during the Vinča-Tordos period represented by metallurgy and stimulated by exploitation of economic resources in the area, spurred the growth of trading networks that enhanced the potential to augment personal prestige and wealth. While such economic stimuli conceivably was the basis for the introduction of sign usage at Tordos, it can be inferred from the increasing social complexity throughout the Vinča culture that the status of religious functionaries was enhanced. In effect, even if the original use of signs at Tordos was fostered by both economic and ritual roles, the signs must have become increasingly associated with ritual and ideology/world view and eventually were identified as components of the belief system in numerous sites of the Vinča culture. The fifth millennium Neolithic village of Banpo, near Xian, China, has yielded pottery vessels incised with signs having striking parallels with the Vinča signs.
www.prehistory.it...

Well guys now is the time for thoughts and information to pass through these threads about your thoughts and views of this. I hope you enjoy it, as it was a jolt to me because I had never heard of this.

As I said earlier, please feel free to post any other information about the Vinča-Tordos script, and any thoughts you have on it.

Conclusion

reply to post by Conclusion

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Here's one of the Tartaria Tablets so folk get an idea of what the 'script' looked like.



The Vinca symbols aren't really considered as writing in the sense we understand it. There aren't the familiar repeated symbols that indicate an organised system of symbols like our words demonstrate. Instead, it's thought that the symbols represent familiar things to the Vinca people. The meaning of which has been long ago lost to the whims of time.

Looking at the tablet right top...the images seem to depict two goats with an unknown in the middle. The lower tablet seems to show an animal, plants and containers/cooking pots. If so...I think we've cracked it! The bottom tablet is a recipe...

reply to post by Kandinsky

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Thank you for that input. This has to be some form of communication markings. Especially the one on the left. That could be simplistic writing. What are you personal thoughts on this.

reply to post by Kandinsky

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It does seem similar to Sumerian.

Maybe posted next to Sumerian text it would be easier to see if it does or doesn't. We could look for the similarities or differences.

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Kandinsky

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Thank you for that input. This has to be some form of communication markings. Especially the one on the left. That could be simplistic writing. What are you personal thoughts on this.

I remember the symbols being part of a feature in New Scientist late in 2009. They covered Easter Island's 'rongorongo' symbols and things like proto-Elamite.

The consensus on Vinca symbols was that at best it was a form of proto-script. It's the lack of repetition that makes them unlikely to be a formal writing with grammar, syntax etc. Egyptian symbols were a mystery until tthe discovery of the Rosetta Stone...but it was recognised as writing due to the repeated symbols across monuments, tablets, papyrii etc.

So the Vinca symbols may well remain a total mystery! The people are long gone and there isn't a similar ancient set of symbols to draw comparisons to.

This is rongorongo from Easter Island...if you read about it, it's likely worth a thread...it's apparently read from the bottom right to the top left. Not a living soul has any idea how to translate it...





EDIT to fix image

[edit on 14-3-2010 by Kandinsky]

reply to post by Kandinsky

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Very nice.


I only heard about it through finding the Vinča-Tordos script. Now that is awesome. Any idea as to what the age is for it?

reply to post by Conclusion

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From the Rongorongo wiki...

Dating the tablets Little direct dating has been done. Tablet Q (Small Saint Petersburg) is the sole item that has been carbon dated but the results only constrain the date to sometime after 1680.[note 6] Direct dating is not the only evidence. Texts A, P, and V can be dated to the 18th or 19th century by virtue of being inscribed on European oars. Orliac (2005) calculated that the wood for tablet C (Mamari) was cut from the trunk of a tree some 15 meters (50 ft) tall,[note 7] and Easter Island has long been deforested of trees that size. Analysis of charcoal indicates that the forest disappeared in the first half of the 17th century. Roggeveen, who discovered Easter Island in 1722, described the island as "destitute of large trees" and in 1770 González de Ahedo wrote, "Not a single tree is to be found capable of furnishing a plank so much as six inches [15 cm] in width." Forster, with Cook's expedition of 1774, reported that "there was not a tree upon the island which exceeded the height of 10 feet [3 m]".[24]

Rongorongo

What these few examples have to say could *possibly* help us to understand what madness led Easter Islanders to kill each other and decimate their trees. Again, it's considered to be likely impossible to translate.

Alphabet is probably preceded by ideograms. Ideograms enable people who speak different language to communicate through them.
Alphabet, on the other hand, creates a barrier. So, the existence of alphabet, in my opinion, coincides with the creation of state (nation - civilization) of a specific kind which was then imposed on all others.

The "problem" with South Slavs arises from the fact, which is political in essence: after Rome was extinct in the Balkans, where did those Slavs come from? The obvious answer is systematically eluded: they already were there, but under Romans, they were not recognized as such.

Same applies to the origins of the so called Cyrillic alphabet. It is claimed that it was invented by two Greek monks (Cyril and Methody) and that it was based on Greek alphabet. But if you look at Cyrillic alphabet, you will see that it is primarily based on Vinca proto alphabet, and only then you see specific similarities with Greek alphabet.
The point here is that Slavs from the Balkans, did have some sort of very ancient alphabet, most likely Vincan alphabet.

Letters from Vinca and its derivatives, like Greek or Latin alphabet, are mostly adapted to carving onto wooden planks or bark (straight cuts), unlike some other alphabets or sign systems, which were executed with paint and brush, or pens.

Runic letters also seem to be derived from Vincan proto alphabet. Earliest finds of runic letters are from Slovakia, which is very close to Vinca.

Prof Pesic claim about Phoenician's alphabet is that Phoenicians were the Pelasti, people from the southern Balkans, who colonized territory which was later called after them - Palestine. If you take a look at Phoenician alphabet, you will see that is resembles Vincan proto alphabet. And, later, Greeks used their alphabet, but it was already there, used by Balkan people.
Phoenician alphabet has nothing in common with Sumerian cuneiform.

In northern Italy, Etruscan neighbors were Veneti, a Slavic nation (Venice is called after them). Again, under Roman rule, they "disappeared" as a nation. But, obviously, their descendants are Slovenes (Slovenia). And, of course, many were assimilated.
Much later, Venetian was a Romance language, related to Italian and Spanish. It is still spoken today, but did you ever hear of it?
www.omniglot.com...

Venetian is a Romance language spoken by about 2 million people mainly in Venice and the surrounding area, and also in Trieste, Croatia, Slovenia, Mexico and Brazil. The language is more closely related to French and Spanish than it is to Italian.

When Venice was an independent republic (between the 9th and 18th centuries), the Venetian language enjoyed considerable prestige. However literary Venetian lost out the the Tuscan dialect, which eventually became the national language of Italy.

Today Venetian has no official status.

reply to post by Conclusion

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the folks who study this most seriously are probably archeomythology.org. why they named themselves this i'll never know.

in order for the script to be proto-writing, it would be normal to expect to see its evolution into other scripts and science doesn't recognize that as existing... even though it probably does

reply to post by DangerDeath

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Man you have given me some information to digest. lol.

If what I have read so far from you is correct then the Greek language could also have been based on the Vinča markings. Very nice information if true.

Letters from Vinca and its derivatives, like Greek or Latin alphabet, are mostly adapted to carving onto wooden planks or bark (straight cuts), unlike some other alphabets or sign systems, which were executed with paint and brush, or pens.

Very interesting. That would suggest they did not have paper. Nice.

Runic letters also seem to be derived from Vincan proto alphabet. Earliest finds of runic letters are from Slovakia, which is very close to Vinca.

Hmm. Runic letters. Could that suggest that the culture was of a druidic nature?

Prof Pesic claim about Phoenician's alphabet is that Phoenicians were the Pelasti, people from the southern Balkans, who colonized territory which was later called after them - Palestine. If you take a look at Phoenician alphabet, you will see that is resembles Vincan proto alphabet. And, later, Greeks used their alphabet, but it was already there, used by Balkan people. Phoenician alphabet has nothing in common with Sumerian cuneiform.

Very interesting. So it could have been a common language to most of the ancient nations. That would explain the Ideograms theory. I would really have to compare the Sumerian Cuneiform to the Vinča markings, but, and I could be wrong, I thought I could see some similarity with some of the single marks.

Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Conclusion

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the folks who study this most seriously are probably archeomythology.org. why they named themselves this i'll never know.

in order for the script to be proto-writing, it would be normal to expect to see its evolution into other scripts and science doesn't recognize that as existing... even though it probably does.

Well I don't think it is science that doesn't recognize it, I think it is the people who are the self-elected leaders of science. If people in the field do not agree with them they are usually ostracized and then their professional career is ruined. So it is a very closed minded organization that believes only certain people are allowed a view.

reply to post by Conclusion

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in the case of the sinaia tablets [those pictures], inaction by anyone sort of indicts everyone. anyone in the world could look at them and i know of but one brave soul that has mentioned them in a western science magazine. there were hundreds of them. someone should look.

reply to post by Conclusion

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No, Greek language was different from that spoken by Pelasgi (and Pelasti). It is more like they were conquered by Greeks and turned into slaves (like Helots in Sparta).

Pisistratus, ordered Homer's epics to be written down (6th century BC), because they were traditionally memorized. But it seems (some claim) that he also ordered them to be translated into Greek. Which means, that Homer was not a Greek himself (possibly not just one man). The spoken tradition on the Balkans from the later ages is coming from the same source. There are too many similarities. So it is not unlikely that original epics were in some other language. The tradition of Apollo precedes Greeks in the Balkans.

The wider area around Vinca (near today's Belgrade, where Danube and river Save meet) was populated by many nations, some of them are mentioned in Iliad (Dardanians, Phrigians - and those two come from the areas of today's Slavonia (Croatia). Those tribes fought on Trojan side. The epic of Iliad actually depicts the clash of two different cultures, of which the Trojan culture was much older than that of belligerent Ahaians.

Balkan nations were related, more or less closely in ancient times: Ilirians, Dacians, Tracians, Old Slavs, Kelts. Many of them actually mixed. There are still known Iliric families today. Dacians adopted another name, after being conquered by Romans (Emperor Trian) and are now called Rumanians, their language is Romanesque. And so with others, languages changed, but there are words in those langages that precede the earliest known conquests.

At the time of Vincan culture (and before), the whole area from Asia Minor, around the Black Sea in the East, and to Bosnia and today's Austria in the West, and Macedonia to the South, were connected and influencing each other.

There is a settlement Lepenski Vir, not far from Vinca, from 6.500 BC. THis settlement was built upon geometric blueprints (triangle - trapeze) and they also had some kind of "alphabet", using elements from triangles. Some think that this place was more like a sanctuary, or even more unimaginable, like some kind of school.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.ekathimerini.com...


One more interesting thing. The oldest known copper mine in the world is from today's Serbia - Majdanpek. Around 7.000 BC. It became one of the oldest bronze culture centers (Serbia, Bulgaria, Rumania).

Here are more links to Vincan culture.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

And from Macedonia

www.unet.com.mk...

www.unet.com.mk...

www.unet.com.mk...

I think the problem is the main effort from archeology was heavily tainted with actual political situation, and very little attention was paid to other possibilities. But it seems there is plenty of evidence to rebuild those theories of the origin of the writing systems.


1.200 years ago, there was another alphabet in usage, in Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, called glagolitic alphabet. It was very different from this Vincan tradition, and probably derived from Bulgarian (a Turkish or Mongol tribe) system based on knots. They used this system because they were nomads, from Asia. Bulgars conquered big territory, but their language was not preserved. Instead, the Slavic population assimilated the conquerors, yet kept their name - today's Bulgaria.

en.wikipedia.org...

You will see that there are much more rounded forms in this alphabet.

As for cuneiform alphabet of Sumerians, I don't see any resemblance with Vincan proto-alphabet. It was, obviously, created from a different effort, maybe from scratch.

This is really a big subject

This is actually very refreshing and thrilling

PLOCNIK, Serbia (Reuters) – If the figurines found in an ancient European settlement are any guide, women have been dressing to impress for at least 7,500 years.

Recent excavations at the site – part of the Vinca culture which was Europe’s biggest prehistoric civilization – point to a metropolis with a great degree of sophistication and a taste for art and fashion, archaeologists say.

In the Neolithic settlement in a valley nestled between rivers, mountains and forests in what is now southern Serbia, men rushed around a smoking furnace melting metal for tools. An ox pulled a load of ore, passing by an art workshop and a group of young women in short skirts. “According to the figurines we found, young women were beautifully dressed, like today’s girls in short tops and mini skirts, and wore bracelets around their arms,” said archaeologist Julka Kuzmanovic-Cvetkovic.

The unnamed tribe who lived between 5400 and 4700 BC in the 120-hectare site at what is now Plocnik knew about trade, handcrafts, art and metallurgy. Near the settlement, a thermal well might be evidence of Europe’s oldest spa.

www.ekathimerini.com...

Originally posted by DangerDeath


As for cuneiform alphabet of Sumerians, I don't see any resemblance with Vincan proto-alphabet. It was, obviously, created from a different effort, maybe from scratch.

This is really a big subject

there are a selection of sumerian names at the bottom of this page [like enlil and abzu and edin] here [picassa pics]. i can see alot of similarities personally

Originally posted by Parta

Originally posted by DangerDeath


As for cuneiform alphabet of Sumerians, I don't see any resemblance with Vincan proto-alphabet. It was, obviously, created from a different effort, maybe from scratch.

This is really a big subject

there are a selection of sumerian names at the bottom of this page [like enlil and abzu and edin] here [picassa pics]. i can see alot of similarities personally

Well, yeah, but those are not cuneiform.
Perhaps, they used similar, various signs, in the beginning, and were maybe aware (they probably were) of other cultures, but the developed cuneiform is very different and systematic/abstract alphabet.

In prehistoric times, when Sahara was still green, it is possible that all those civilizations from Europe, Asia and Africa were in touch with each other, but later, with the appearance of first states, a different kind of world was created. More unification, differentiation, assimilation, destruction...

reply to post by DangerDeath

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correct me if i'm wrong but cuneiform evolved from the logograms and it is the logograms that are similar between the fertile crescent and the balkans.

i agree about traveling. people went everywhere. they had feet didn't they??

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Originally posted by Parta

Originally posted by DangerDeath


As for cuneiform alphabet of Sumerians, I don't see any resemblance with Vincan proto-alphabet. It was, obviously, created from a different effort, maybe from scratch.

This is really a big subject

there are a selection of sumerian names at the bottom of this page [like enlil and abzu and edin] here [picassa pics]. i can see alot of similarities personally

Well, yeah, but those are not cuneiform.
Perhaps, they used similar, various signs, in the beginning, and were maybe aware (they probably were) of other cultures, but the developed cuneiform is very different and systematic/abstract alphabet.

In prehistoric times, when Sahara was still green, it is possible that all those civilizations from Europe, Asia and Africa were in touch with each other, but later, with the appearance of first states, a different kind of world was created. More unification, differentiation, assimilation, destruction...

After reading this one thing came immediately to my mind from following undo's work.

Enki's nam-shub
deoxy.org...

Once upon a time, there was no snake, there was no scorpion,
There was no hyena, there was no lion,

There was no wild dog, no wolf,

There was no fear, no terror,

Man had no rival.


In those days, the land Shubur-Hamazi,

Harmony-tongued Sumer, the great land of the me of princeship,

Uri, the land having all that is appropriate,

The land Martu, resting in security,

The whole universe, the people well cared for,

To Enlil in one tongue gave speech.


Then the lord defiant, the prince defiant, the king defiant,

Enki, the lord of abundance, whose commands are trustworthy,

The lord of wisdom, who scans the land,

The leader of the gods,

The lord of Eridu, endowed with wisdom,

Changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it,

Into the speech of man that had been one.


[edit on 15-3-2010 by Ayrton]

[edit on 15-3-2010 by Ayrton]

reply to post by DangerDeath

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The "problem" with South Slavs arises from the fact, which is political in essence: after Rome was extinct in the Balkans, where did those Slavs come from? The obvious answer is systematically eluded: they already were there, but under Romans, they were not recognized as such.

The Vinca Culture existed until around 4000BC. If I understand your post correctly, you're suggesting that the people of South East Europe (Romania, Balkans etc) were responsible for the Latin scripts of Greece, Rome and earlier Phoenician alphabets.

It's a fringe view and popular with the guys at Storm Front. I'm not suggesting that you are a white supremacist, just pointing out the association.

The notion isn't supported by the evidence. The Vinca symbols are considered pictograms and not script for reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread. As a representation of abstract concepts and numbers, the evolution of written language loosely follows the migration of humans from North Africa and into Western Asia and the Middle East.

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