Why do we travel through time at 1 second per second?

reply to post by OnceReturned


Ah ha -- you've hit on the golden nugget.

The West defines time as spatial distance!! aka the inverse square law - even quantum physics relies on time as a symmetric measurement (translated back into the spatial experimental measurement).

In nonwestern cultures you LISTEN to time - not measure it with a spatial technology!!

Consider math professor Joe Mazur's recent book -- the Motion Paradox:

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1268614359&sr=1-2

I have a review of it -- and I've corresponded with Mazur based on my time frequency research which he encouraged me to submit to the most read math journal - the MAA.

In quantum physics there's the "time frequency uncertainty principle" which states that the more you measure time

as spatial distance

the less you know frequency as energy intensity (quantum).

Because time even as phase change starts as a spatial measurement but again time in nonwestern cultures is based on auditory perception not visual!!

And so time as frequency actually is noncommutative -- not translated back into spatial measurement as is the case in quantum physics with the Poisson Bracket -- i.e. time as symmetric measurement.

Time as frequency is complementary opposites which means A x B does not equal B x A!!

So we listen to sound and as the ONE it resonates so that the 2:3 as C to G is 3:4 as G to C -- that's the Perfect 5th as the Perfect 4th complementary opposite -- from the octave -- the 1:2.

This was the Pythagorean Tetrad which is also the Taoist yin-yang-emptiness ratios and also the three gunas of ancient India.

I made this discovery when finishing my masters degree -- it critiques the very foundation of Western logic but there is no pure science as the concept of incommensurability -- whereby math comes from music -- is based on a physical measurement using technology -- the vertical line of the triangle in the Pythagorean Theorem.

9/8 cubed is the square root of two and 9/8 is the Major 2nd music interval derived from 3/2 squared as 9/4 divided by two so it is within one octave -- this goes back to Plato and Archytas as I detail in my research called "very valuable" by math professor Joe Mazur:

naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com...

Here's my blogbook chapter on that subject -- it's technical as it's geared for a math journal but really it's about nonwestern music (which is why it was rejected with no comment on the content by the mathematicians)....

reply to post by wayaboveitall


Well, there is at least a strong corrolation between brain and mind, so much so that most(but not all) neuroscientists think that there is no identifiable difference. While you are right, it is not provable, the suggestion that your mind and your memories may have a non-physical basis requires a large leap away from the materialist scientific worldview and into the some very contentious metaphysics. In fact, in order to explain how the non-physical would interact with the physical(which it would have to)we would require a radically different concept of reality. So, I think it is fair to proceed in this conversation within the safe but metaphysically dubious framework of materialist scientific understanding.

But, would it even matter? Whatever medium memories are stored on, wouldn't that medium also revert to state A when you went back in time? Isn't it also bound by time? It would seem that if it is capable of storing memories, which are so strongly tied to time, it would have to be.

It would seem that if it is capable of storing memories, which are so strongly tied to time, it would have to be.

How exactly are memories 'strongly tied to time'? There is no way to scientifically quantify memories, and time is a concept.
Why should there be a 'media' on which memories are stored anyway?
There is no way to quantify or qualify memories.
For a given event, your memory of it and mine may differ greatly.
If this 'media. were some kind of biological video cam, would our memory not be identical?
Again, metaphysics or not, you can dissect a brain till the cows come home and you would not find a memory.
Why should physical matter be altered? What natural law explains how my molecular structure can reverse it state to undo a wound or scar?
Where is the science?

[edit on 14-3-2010 by wayaboveitall]

Originally posted by wayaboveitall
How exactly are memories 'strongly tied to time'? There is no way to scientifically quantify memories, and time is a concept.

There is an undeniable neurobiological basis for memories which is becoming increasingly well understood.

www.memoryzine.com...

www.narsad.org.../11265/latest-research

arstechnica.com...

serendip.brynmawr.edu...

What do you mean, quantify them? Count them? No, I'm not sure that there is a way to do that, but I don't think it matters. Why should it?

We have a concept of time, but time itself is not a concept. Time exists. To locate an object you have to know its position in three dimensions. You also have to know when it will be there. In order to convey this information you need four values. The first three describe its position in each of the three spacial dimensions, and the last number is representitive of its position in time. Time is no more "just a concept" than space is.

Why should there be a 'media' on which memories are stored anyway?

Because there is no alternative that can possibly make sense. Nothing exists completely disembodied from everything else. If it doesn't exist in any form - or medium - then it just plain doesn't exist.

There is no way to quantify or qualify memories.

We may not be able to quantify the experience of having a memory - because that notion doesn't even make sense - but we can certainly give a description of the underlying physical basis, by describing the brain state that is associated with the memory. Why would we want to quantify it?

And we can qualify memories. Of course we can. I have an unpleasant memory of falling down the stairs. There, qualified. It was "bad."

For a given event, your memory of it and mine may differ greatly.

We have different brains, and those brains perceive the event from different perspectives. This is nothing to be concerned about.

If this 'media. were some kind of biological video cam, would our memory not be identical?

Well, there is no need to draw a comparison to something that doesn't exist like biological video cameras. Memories are stores in your brain. They're not identicle because our brains - which are different - processes everything in a unique but similar way. If our memories were identical we would have to have observed the event from an identical perspective, which would mean we were one.

Again, metaphysics or not, you can dissect a brain till the cows come home and you would not find a memory.

Yes I would. It would just look different from the outside.

Why should physical matter be altered? What natural law explains how my molecular structure can reverse it state to undo a wound or scar?

All of physics works if you play time fowards or backwards with the exception of entropy. The fact that it is moving fowards is arbitrary(except maybe because of entropy).

These are kinematics equations:

V = Vo + at
X - Xo = Vot + .5at2
v2 = vo2 + 2a(X - Xo)
X - Xo = .5(Vo + V)t
V is final velocity in units of meters per seconds (m/s)
Vo is initial velocity in units of meters per seconds (m/s)
a is acceleration in units of meters per squared seconds (m/s2)
t is time in seconds (s)
X is final displacement in units of meters (m)
Xo is initial displacement in units of meters (m)

They describe straight line motion by Newtonian mechanics in any direction, and perpendicular directions can be solved for simultaneously, which allows for curved motion, projectile motion, and any other basic motion of macro scale objects. If the objects are not under special conditions( for example moving at or near the speed of light or are in a black hole ) these equations will hold true.

Note that there is no direction of time built into these questions. t is just t. We can say that the time now is 1000 seconds. These equations will correctly describe the motion of our object either foward or backwards in time. We can know its position 100 seconds ago, or 100 seconds from now. The process is identical for either calculation. The equations have no built in preference for time moving foward. If you press rewind every still works, just exactly in reverse.

Where is the science?

To show what?

To show where memory is stored in the brain.

Memories are stores in your brain.

It can be shown that areas of electrical activity are associated with the subject remembering, but science cannot show where or how it is stored, nor acess memorys artificially (without the subject remembering).
aka science cannot 'nail it down'.
perhaps memorys dont exist? Show me the study of the brain that proves the existance of any area of the brain as data/memory storage.
What experiments were done that an official declaration was made that this part or that of the human brain holds memory?
How is that large portions of the brain can be removed but the subject remembers all the same?
You yourself say, if it cant be proven, it dosent exist.

Again, metaphysics or not, you can dissect a brain till the cows come home and you would not find a memory.

Yes I would. It would just look different from the outside.

So why hasnt memory been discovered. Look different from what? the subjects perspective?
So what, moot point, no memory has ever been discovered by you or anyone else with a scalple. To prove a physical existance of a memory, (as you propose with your media required ideal) you need to measure and observe it, this cannot be done.

While you are right, it is not provable, the suggestion that your mind and your memories may have a non-physical basis requires a large leap away from the materialist scientific worldview and into the some very contentious metaphysics.

It requires a means by which science can prove it so, or prove it not so.
A conclusion based on lack of ability to scientifically test something, is neither proof, nor good science.
Science once concluded the earth was flat due to lack of means to test the theory. They were wrong.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by wayaboveitall]

a second was made up by people, time doesn't travel, we measure it on our own fantasy calculations. The only things that move is our bodies and things around time, but never time itself.

It is interesting....

One of the more complex functions of the brain is memory. Scientists know that nerve cells in the brain and body communicate information via electric impulses. What they don't know is how nerve cells in the brain work together to encode information and then store and recall it. Ole Paulsen, a physiologist from the University of Oxford talks about his latest findings that show memories are linked to interconnected nerve networks.

www.abc.net.au...

Ole Paulsen: Yes, the hippocampus is a sausage-shaped structure found in the temporal lobe on each side and is known to be important for memory. And maybe the person who has taught us most about memory over the time is patient H.M. who had epilepsy that was intractable with the current medication in 1953 and therefore he underwent surgery where at the time it was not known what the hippocampus was used for, so the surgeon removed the hippocampus on both sides.

Robyn Williams: They just took it out?

Ole Paulsen: They just took it out because they didn't know what it was for, and that's where the site of his epilepsy was.

Robyn Williams: And what happened to poor H.M.?

Ole Paulsen: Poor H.M. taught us a lot about memory in that moment because he lost his ability to lay down new memories. So he could remember everything that happened up to the time of the surgery but nothing from thereafter. So poor H.M. when he looks at himself in the mirror in the morning he remembers himself as a young man but in the mirror he sees a relatively old one by now.

Robyn Williams: So that means that recent memories are in the hippocampus, but then presumably it's laid down somewhere else.

Ole Paulsen: That's correct. So it is thought that hippocampus either operates as a temporary memory storage where the recent memories are stored and then transferred to the neocortex, that is the mantle of the brain on each side. Alternatively it might be a cataloguing system where after the immediate memory also sits there in the neocortex but it actually uses the hippocampus as a librarian, so that you have a cataloguing system to connect different pieces of information together.

We are way offtopic oncereturned
Time is concept, explained by an equation, but it has no physical reality, it is not within the three known dimensions, therefor you cannot travel through it. Its fantasy.
You travel within three dimensions 'Now', thats it. Book a holiday for next week, come the day to leave, its still 'now'.
Your molecular reversal theory is just that, theory. Its not supported by science.
The degeneration of a cell might be halted, but cannot be reversed.
There is no natural law/laws that support such possibility.
If I travel back in time, by your theory, to before my left leg was amputated, does it magically appear reattached? Even if the amputated limb was incinerated years ago. Where does the earlier 'me' go?
Please explain the science by which this might be possible?

[edit on 15-3-2010 by wayaboveitall]

What I want to know, is: Is 1 Second only 1 Second in your Solar System, because what defines it? Where does this info come from? Gravity? The Sun? Subspace?

[edit on 15-3-2010 by cushycrux]

It comes from Us, a second is a second anywhere.
Science has elaborate 'theorys' about that second becoming shorter as you approach light speed, but its a theory, and you cant approach lightspeed anyway. Even the speed of light is in contention it seems.
Prove the speed of dark and you have something by which to measure the speed of light.
1 second is a human construct, a measurment of the concept of time, nothing more. No clocks, no math, no seconds.
Why is an hour 1 hour long, because we call it an hour, 1 part of 24 in each rotation of the planet we call days.
Try to explain a length of time passing, without using measurment.
How long will I wait in the doctors waiting room?

Pretty much impossible isnt it. You could say 400 breaths for example, or heartbeats, or the passing of a shadow 1 meter, but all are measurments.
without measurement we have no expression.



[edit on 15-3-2010 by wayaboveitall]

reply to post by OnceReturned


hey OnceReturned,

i want to thank you for posing this question. i hit the reply button twice in the last week, but was unable to come up with a satisfying answer until last night.

as you know, you and i are alike in our desire to understand these most basic questions. after some serious brainstorming, i have posted a new thread in which i am attempting to relate time to established concepts.

the short answer is: the apparent direction of time can be compared to standing stationary in a current of water. the water is travelling backward, and from your perspective of stillness, you get the sensation of moving forward. the current, then, is the cumulative motion of quantum uncertainty from "higher" systems to "lower" systems.

the thread, complete with drawings, is HERE.

thanks again,

dkp

It's because of the values of permittivity and permeability of free space. Change those in a volume, change the apparent rate of time flow in that volume.

Simplify, man simplify.

Space + Matter + Motion = Time

No space = nothing. No matter = no motion. No motion = no time.

This is what defines the universe we live in.

Want to jump forward/backward in time? Easy as pie, leave the universe and reenter at a different point in time.

Pooh, on people who say time travel is impossible.

www.platonia.com...

The finding of this theory presents many great difficulties, of which the ‘problem of time’ is perhaps the most severe. It seems that a choice has to be made between two irreconcilable notions of time. I argue that the only satisfactory solution is to abolish time altogether. I outline a timeless quantum theory of the universe. This includes a proposed solution to one of the most intractable problems of physics: what is the origin of the so-called arrow of time? Why is it that all phenomena distinguish a common direction of time (i.e., why does entropy increase?) but the equations of physics are symmetric with respect to the direction of time? The equations of physics allow not only the shattering of a cup that is dropped on the floor but also the re-assembly of the pieces. However, that is never observed. I believe that a theory of the universe should explain why entropy increases. In The End of Time, I suggest that a fundamental asymmetry in the space of all the possible structures of the universe could provide a basis for the arrow of time.

reply to post by Blue Alice


well, u are wrong

time outside earth is faster

and that happens because gravity does have an impact in time

so, try again