What’s more important to you?, page 1
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Topic started on 12-3-2010 @ 10:33 AM by litmuspaper
I’ve been thinking about the massive cover up that would have to take place if a 9/11 conspiracy was real and I’ve often wondered why no significant whistleblowers have come forward at this point in time.

I’ve read about people who supposedly “knew too much” and killed themselves or died in accidents and I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s very good reasons for why more haven’t come forward.

I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that people who could facilitate or plan 9/11 could also have you dead within a day if they wanted you gone, no matter who you are, short of being the president of the United States and his family.

I think for people who aren’t necessarily “in on it”, but who know information that could damage the official story, it’s a matter of what is more important to them. What would be more important to you? Protecting your family from harm or going public?

I think there are also those in the government that don’t even go as far as considering their family’s safety, but believe keeping the country from collapsing is more important than exposing the true culprits behind 9/11.

The last group of people that I’m sure choose to remain in the shadows are probably in denial, or for reasons I can’t fathom actually think 9/11 was a good and necessary event. Those in denial would likely be people who were family members of the victims or people who witnessed something within the towers or building seven that was not addressed in the official story. Other people in denial could be those who know more than we did about the pentagon workers who died and what they discovered while they were investigating the missing trillions.

So, if you were to say that such a massive cover up could not take place without a significant whistleblower coming forward, how would you address the above?

If you were one of these people is it not possible that something else in your life is more important to you than whistle blowing?


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 11:01 AM by litmuspaper
reply to post by Dorian Soran



Deborah Jeane Palfrey's suicide is the most damning because she said she was not going to kill herself point blank after she was asked about 9/11 on the Alex Jones show.

I didn't tune in to the program because I don't take Alex seriously, but I took her very seriously.

She's been discussed here many times, I've seen it while I lurked.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...



reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 11:43 AM by litmuspaper
reply to post by Dorian Soran



Now, do you care to discuss the questions I asked in the OP?


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:02 PM by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by litmuspaper
So, if you were to say that such a massive cover up could not take place without a significant whistleblower coming forward, how would you address the above?

If you were one of these people is it not possible that something else in your life is more important to you than whistle blowing?


The problem with this is that in the real world, the exact opposite is true. We have seen time and time again in organized crime groups how a member or another would be earmarked for death by the group. Almost to a man, the first thing they did is turn themselves in and offer to give state's evidence for protection becuase a prison stint is still preferable to a ghastly death. Being an insider, they would likewise know they could turn themselves in to and who they could not.

The other problem you have is is, in many case they wouldn't even need to come forward. The insider known as "Deep Throat" came forward and revealed what he knew about Watergate to the media, and it wasn't revealed that he was the number 2 man in the FBI for decades. Even then, we wouldn't have known until he revealed it himself. If an insider really wanted to spill the beans without revealing him/herself, all they need to do is make some copies of incriminating evidence and slip it to Alex Jones, Dylan Avery, or any number of self styled Paul Reveres who are claiming to "want to know the truth". They already have the independent communications network to distribute the details.

Thus, the reason I know how they're a bunch of con artists- if even 1/1000 of the claims these snake oil peddlers were true, they'd have been"suicided" or "accidentally deathed" long ago specifically becuase they *were* loudmouths. If some secret cabal wouldn't think twice about murdering 3,000 Americans then they'd certainly snuff those guys in between bites of their pop tarts. These ridiculous conspiracy stories are based entirely upon abject paranoid and antiestablishment cynicism, rather than anything resembling reality.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:08 PM by Dorian Soran
Originally posted by litmuspaper
reply to
post by Dorian Soran



Now, do you care to discuss the questions I asked in the OP?


I would love to, however I need to do a bit more research into these people that "knew too much" and was offed or offed themselves.

The reason for the research before the discussion is I was not at the 9/11 muslim terrorist attacks. I was not in the "knew too much" crowd, nor do I know anyone in that crowd.

So in order to discuss the topic at hand I must try and put my self in the shoes of an American citizen that would betray their country and fellow Americans by participating or at the very least keeping quiet.

I must first get into the frame of mind of choosing between my family and life and blowing the whistle on the biggest terrorist attack on American soil.

I will respond once I get into the role, so to speak. Until then I am sure you will have plenty of responses and "atta boy" responses from the forum drones that seem to agree in government and American culpability without the slighest of proof. Until that time have fun with your thread friend.

Dorian Soran



reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:10 PM by ugie1028
reply to post by litmuspaper



There would be whistle blowers who would come forward if there was an open transparent investigation.

AE for 9/11 truth, has a few closet witnesses willing to come out if the above happens.

I was with them a few weeks ago at New Jersey's congressman offices. There are people willing to come forward, but its not public knowledge. well at least their names.

there are a few military, private contractors, etc who are already willing to speak out against the OS.

www.treasoninamericaconference.com...


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:11 PM by litmuspaper
reply to post by GoodOlDave



The problem with this is that in the real world, the exact opposite is true. We have seen time and time again in organized crime groups how a member or another would be earmarked for death by the group. Almost to a man, the first thing they did is turn themselves in and offer to give state's evidence for protection becuase a prison stint is still preferable to a ghastly death. Being an insider, they would likewise know they could turn themselves in to and who they could not.

In your example the law protects these people.

I tend to disagree that you can use that example to justify why someone would come forward against the US government. Going against the leaders of a nation, the FBI, and CIA at once is different from exposing a mob boss.
The other problem you have is is, in many case they wouldn't even need to come forward. The insider known as "Deep Throat" came forward and revealed what he knew about Watergate to the media, and it wasn't revealed that he was the number 2 man in the FBI for decades. Even then, we wouldn't have known until he revealed it himself. If an insider really wanted to spill the beans without revealing him/herself, all they need to do is make some copies of incriminating evidence and slip it to Alex Jones, Dylan Avery, or any number of self styled Paul Reveres who are claiming to "want to know the truth". They already have the independent communications network to distribute the details.

I would argue it depends on what you know and can get your hands on.

“Deep Throat” didn’t need to show his face to the world because nothing he said required him giving any kind of testimony because he had evidence on hand, like the evidence you mentioned.

Maybe the people who want to come forward have no such evidence, maybe if they ever did have access to it, it was long gone before they ever wanted to expose the cover up.

Thus, the reason I know how they're a bunch of con artists- if even 1/1000 of the claims these snake oil peddlers were true, they'd have been"suicided" or "accidentally deathed" long ago specifically becuase they *were* loudmouths. If some secret cabal wouldn't think twice about murdering 3,000 Americans then they'd certainly snuff those guys in between bites of their pop tarts.

So, wait, you’re trying to argue that such people could come forward in the above part of your post if they really wanted to, and now you’re claiming they would be easily snuffed out? Perhaps the real holders of this knowledge they feel the same.

These ridiculous conspiracy stories are based entirely upon abject paranoid and antiestablishment cynicism, rather than anything resembling reality.

I thank you for your opinion but I disagree. I don’t want this to turn into a “did it happen?” debate.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:17 PM by litmuspaper
reply to post by Dorian Soran



I would love to, however I need to do a bit more research into these people that "knew too much" and was offed or offed themselves.

But this thread isn’t about that and I don’t wish for it to be made into that.

If you think the idea that these people were targeted is false I have no problem with that, you can disagree and still discuss the hypothesis.


without the slighest of proof.

I thank you for your opinion but I disagree. I don’t want this to turn into a “did it happen?” debate.

There are plenty of threads where either side has provided evidence in this forum; I don’t want that debate here. We can discuss the OP without beating a dead horse.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:20 PM by litmuspaper
Originally posted by ugie1028
reply to
post by litmuspaper



There would be whistle blowers who would come forward if there was an open transparent investigation.

AE for 9/11 truth, has a few closet witnesses willing to come out if the above happens.

I was with them a few weeks ago at New Jersey's congressman offices. There are people willing to come forward, but its not public knowledge. well at least their names.

there are a few military, private contractors, etc who are already willing to speak out against the OS.

www.treasoninamericaconference.com...




Very cool. Thanks for the link.


I hope those brave souls get their chance.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:31 PM by litmuspaper
reply to post by Dorian Soran



So in order to discuss the topic at hand I must try and put my self in the shoes of an American citizen that would betray their country and fellow Americans by participating or at the very least keeping quiet.

I must first get into the frame of mind of choosing between my family and life and blowing the whistle on the biggest terrorist attack on American soil.

I don’t see why this seems like such an implausible idea to you (please correct me if I’m wrong).

This sort of behavior is very human, it has happened in many of our societies, even in modern times.

A lot of Germans not only willingly, but happily watched their Jewish neighbors being stripped of their rights before they were eventually carted off to the slaughter house. They watched their fellow citizens starving in the streets or being hanged in the streets.

I think you give too much credit to people in general, especially those who are motivated by fear.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:35 PM by 1SawSomeThings
reply to post by litmuspaper



Well thought out original post, and interesting questions that I have pondered myself. One thing I would like to point out is (after your quote):


I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that people who could facilitate or plan 9/11 could also have you dead within a day if they wanted you gone, no matter who you are, short of being the president of the United States and his family.


The mobsters who have infected the upper branches of our government have a long reach, and JFK was their prime example. I still don't know for sure what he did to anger them (I do have an idea), but he was a very popular president, and they brought him down. Afterwards, forever the rest of the potential righteous ones would know who is really in charge. It's not hard to take care of whistleblowers, unless they have nothing left to lose. And if that's the case, they will pay you a friendly visit.

edit to add: BTW it's obvious that some of them(mobsters) visit the 9/11 forum very frequently.


[edit on 12-3-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]



reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 12:52 PM by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by litmuspaper

I tend to disagree that you can use that example to justify why someone would come forward against the US government. Going against the leaders of a nation, the FBI, and CIA at once is different from exposing a mob boss.


You are right, it's a LOT different, namely, it makes it MORE likely that there'd be an insider coming forward to spill the beans. In organized crime, the price of admission is necessarily being a criminal to begin with, and criminals by definition don't report what they know to the authorities. In the gov't, you have every kind of person from mini-dictators, to people who genuinely want to do good, to complete idiots who don't have the brains to keep their mouths shut, to people who simply get off on stirring up turmoil. Coming forward becuase of their bad conscience would be only one possible reason. Many criminals have been sent to prison simply becuase their wives wanted to get revenge after their spouses cheating on them and THEY spilled the beans.

I already gave the example of Deep Throat as someone who wanted to do good but didn't want to reveal themselves, but there are many more examples than just this. If Bush can't even out a CIA agent without hordes of journalists tracing it back to him via an insider leak, then there's no way they would be able to conceal something a thousand times worse.


Maybe the people who want to come forward have no such evidence, maybe if they ever did have access to it, it was long gone before they ever wanted to expose the cover up.


They wouldn't need evidence. All they need to do is release something other than, well, nothing, to get the ball rolling. Simply name the agents who snuck into the WTC and explain how they rigged all those explosives withotu anyone noticing, and THAT will be all it takes for the dam to start cracking.

So, wait, you’re trying to argue that such people could come forward in the above part of your post if they really wanted to, and now you’re claiming they would be easily snuffed out? Perhaps the real holders of this knowledge they feel the same.


No, actually, YOU are saying that anyone who reveals or attempts to reveal insider information will be rubbed out. I'M saying that if that were true, Alex Jones, Dylan Avery, etc would likewise be rubbed out for the same reason. Since they're obviously not being rubbed out, this is more evidence that no insiders are coming forward becuase there are no insiders to any secret conspiracy to even come forward.

I thank you for your opinion but I disagree. I don’t want this to turn into a “did it happen?” debate.


You regrettably have no choice in the matter, becuase before you can debate why people are or are not behaving in a certain way as a result of some event, you necessarily need to first show the event actually occurred. Otherwise, it's as intellectually dishonest as asking whether you still beat your wife.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 01:06 PM by litmuspaper
reply to post by GoodOlDave



You are right, it's a LOT different, namely, it makes it MORE likely that there'd be an insider coming forward to spill the beans. In organized crime, the price of admission is necessarily being a criminal to begin with, and criminals by definition don't report what they know to the authorities.

I still don’t agree with this assertion. Non-criminals are involved in these cases constantly. Many of them will not testify against a criminal who is connected to organized crime, and those who do are often placed into witness protection. Which requires government assistance, not something I’d be willing to trust if people within the government were out to get me.
I already gave the example of Deep Throat as someone who wanted to do good but didn't want to reveal themselves, but there are many more examples than just this. If Bush can't even out a CIA agent without hordes of journalists tracing it back to him via an insider leak, then there's no way they would be able to conceal something a thousand times worse.

I just don’t think either situation is comparable and I already explained why. Again DT outing Nixon corruption is different from someone like that madam knowing information that puts her directly on the sh*t list of people who facilitated a terrorist attack on their own country. Again, some people involved might not be involved in the way DT was at all; therefore their ability to speak out is affected by different factors. As for government leaks, there is tons of information people in the government CIA, FBI, etc admit we the public will never know. If that information hasn’t leaked yet then I see no reason why we can’t consider that things linked to the 9/11 attack could be part of said information.
They wouldn't need evidence.

To come out without testifying and exposing their identities like DT did they would certainly need evidence. That’s what I was referring to.
No, actually, YOU are saying that anyone who reveals or attempts to reveal insider information will be rubbed out.

I never said such a thing; I said it is plausible that this is a very real fear of those who remain silent.
You regrettably have no choice in the matter, becuase before you can debate why people are or are not behaving in a certain way as a result of some event, you necessarily need to first show the event actually occurred. Otherwise, it's as intellectually dishonest as asking whether you still beat your wife.

No it’s not, but if those are the rules you wish to play by (the ones you just made up on the post), feel free to stop discussing this with me. I have no need to beat a dead horse.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 01:35 PM by Lasheic
I tend to have a very low opinion of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists in general, regardless of whether you're coming at it from an position of support or skepticism. This is because:

1. If they're totally wrong and there was no government conspiracy involved in the 9/11 attacks on any level, then they are merely jaded, paranoid, gullible, and sprinkled with the occasional narcissistic or schizophrenic nutball. If such is the case, then their efforts to mislead the public and sabotage science and education are reprehensible. To say nothing of the damage and disrepspect for the victims and their families.

2. If they're totally right and there is a massive government/NWO conspiracy to create a terror state for control and co-opting the nation into dismantling itself for absorption into a world government dedicated to genocide, surveillance, slavery, and kicking puppies.... then the way the 9/11 Truth movement has conducted it's investigations and whistle blowing campaigns is utterly and completely ineffectual at making their case, providing evidence, and bringing the matter to the attention of patriots in the legislative and judicial system. Incompetence of the highest magnitude which has only managed to convince other jaded and disillusioned folk and the snake-oil charlatans who prey off of them. It's little more than a platform for stoking the ego or wallet of those who wish to present themselves as patriots and heroes, as the lone wolf renegade who breaks apart from the herd and uncovers the slaughterhouse... perhaps rebuking or assailing a sense more of rejection from society at large by saving it from the jaws of the beast, or looking for that chance to gloat; somewhere deep down saying "I told you all so, I was right, and you should be ashamed of how I was treated". Meanwhile, there is no justice those who died... no accountability from those responsible. Like JFK, the conspiracy will never stop morphing and changing... always a new thread, a new angle, a new villian... but never a conviction or closure.


So on the one hand, 9/11 truthers are either deluded... or incompetent on the other. Now, government is rife with conspiracies... be they simple sexual promiscuity blackmail scandals, or large under-the-table operations which run completely counter our laws and political position. Such as trading armaments to hostile nations in exchange for hostages (Iran-Contra), political assassination attempts (Castro; Failed), or False Flags (Gulf of Tonkin).

The problem being, that quite a bit of shady & strongarm bullcrap went on in the name of ramping up the "war on terror"... and quite a few actual conspiracies were uncovered by insiders and professional journalists/investigators which didn't get the attention or criticism or inspection they deserved. The outing of Valarie Plame, the fudging of intel from unreliable sources taken at face value to pad the case for war with BS, as well as what appears to be a near textbook recreation of conditions from the Standford Prison Experiment in the systemic failure of tier 1A of Abu-Ghraib prison. Conditions which promote behavior conducive to abuse and torture in a manner which can be used to gather Intel, but could be also be blamed on a few "Bad Apple" soldiers while offering plausible deniability to whomever was responsible for the "oversights".



Ted's version was truncated a bit for time format, but for a more comprehensive and more graphic presentation, Mr. Zimbardo gives a hour and a half presentation on the subject at this link.


So, to me, the entire issue is rather moot. Either there's nothing to uncover which stands up to serious inquiry, or there was and the truthers borked the case so thoroughly that the perpetrators have unequivocally gotten away with it. By either measure, I don't find them worth giving the time of day. Personally, I think it's more a case of the former - and that too many "9/11 Investigators" are coming at the issue like lawyers trying to build a case. Coming at it from the mindset of an investigator for who's concern is for establishing the validity and credibility of evidence and letting it speak for itself would be more useful. Sadly, this is almost never the case. Truther camps have factioned like religions centering around various espoused theories, and many of whom claiming the others are all disinfo. What precious little research has even come close to peer-review has been criticized for it's lack of controls and methods, but even were it satisfactory the results do not merit the extent of the implications the movement has attributed to them.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 01:51 PM by litmuspaper
reply to post by Lasheic



1. If they're totally wrong and there was no government conspiracy involved in the 9/11 attacks on any level, then they are merely jaded, paranoid, gullible, and sprinkled with the occasional narcissistic or schizophrenic nutball. If such is the case, then their efforts to mislead the public and sabotage science and education are reprehensible. To say nothing of the damage and disrepspect for the victims and their families.

I’m not trying to mislead anyone; the truth is what I’m interested in. As for victim’s families some of them think it’s utter nonsense and some agree that there should be another investigation.
2. If they're totally right and there is a massive government/NWO conspiracy to create a terror state for control and co-opting the nation into dismantling itself for absorption into a world government dedicated to genocide, surveillance, slavery, and kicking puppies.... then the way the 9/11 Truth movement has conducted it's investigations and whistle blowing campaigns is utterly and completely ineffectual at making their case, providing evidence, and bringing the matter to the attention of patriots in the legislative and judicial system. Incompetence of the highest magnitude which has only managed to convince other jaded and disillusioned folk and the snake-oil charlatans who prey off of them.

I’m being completely genuine when I ask: have you really followed the movement at all? There have been plenty of efforts from people all over the world to get the American people to see that another investigation is needed. People have tried to petition the government head on. As for some in the movement being snake oil salesmen, I agree, too bad the media focuses on the crazies and ignores people who aren’t even part of huge truther “movements”, they don’t go as far as saying the government is involved, they just want another investigation. And if they don’t only address the nuts, then they try to turn any sane person into a nut like the Japanese Member of Parliament.
So, to me, the entire issue is rather moot.

Well I guess it’s good that you spent so much time addressing a moot issue and completely ignoring the actual topic of this thread to do so.

I have to wonder why people like you participate in the first place. Do you want to derail, if not you could easily make your own thread on this topic and discuss it there.


reply posted on 12-3-2010 @ 02:16 PM by 1SawSomeThings
reply to post by Lasheic




I tend to have a very low opinion of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists in general, regardless of whether you're coming at it from an position of support or skepticism. This is because:


Because MSM won't supply you or spoon feed you:
1) you probably haven't spent much time looking at photographic evidence from the felling of the twin towers (have you???).

Explain the steel beams and debris shooting upwards, when it was supposedly a gravity driven collapse. Please-->.




So, to me, the entire issue is rather moot. Either there's nothing to uncover which stands up to serious inquiry, or there was and the truthers borked the case so thoroughly that the perpetrators have unequivocally gotten away with it. By either measure, I don't find them worth giving the time of day.


Since there are troops supporting this scheme that started with 9/11, don't you think it is worth the time of day to make sure that it is right that our best and brightest are dying for something that is real??? It is not only the "truthers" burden, but anyone who has a son or daughter who is risking their lives in this 9 year war, which will go on indefinitely according to our "leaders".


[edit on 12-3-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]
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