Guns and Good Stuff

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Again, cars kill more than guns. Hell, cars kill the person using it, the gun just kills what it is pointed at. A gun is as dangerous as a pillow. Both can be used to kill, but only if the person using it wants to kill. Hell, a kid could make one in his garage.

*here we go again*
A car does not really fit into the same category as a gun.
A cars main function is to transport people and goods.
I'm not sure why I am even replying to this point, your post seems somewhat surreal.

And let's get this clear as well.
A gun is way more dangerous than a pillow
If you don't agree with this I suggest you try to find out what a gun is, and what a pillow is.
As for "a kid making one in their garage", I don't think the average kid can make a gun in their garage. Maybe kids in USA are in some way 100 % different from kids in Europe, but I doubt it.

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Jakko]

actually cars guns and pillows arent that dissimilar, they all have their purpose however the end user is what can make the medium look bad.

i can drive my car like a normal sensible person should OR i can go around speeding running redlights and acting like a criminal... i can own a gun and use it responsibly like a law abiding citizen...or i can go around iknocking off liquors store and shoot the clerk behind the counter. i can use a pillow to rest my head on...or i can smother someone with it and kill them.

guns are no different than anything else, if misused it can be a bad thing. but are we going to blame an inanimate object because of someone;s actions? the truth is people kill other people all the time with knives, but i dont see an anti knife group. people kill other people using cars as stated by james the lesser. there are people who kill others with a baseball bat. guess its time to outlaw the nations favorite pasttime huh?

guns are a tool. they can be used for fun, sport or hunting or they can be used to kill people. then again so can a bow and arrow, so can a car, so can a lot of other things but we LOVE to blame the gun dont we? heavan forbid we blame the person doing the crime, that would be too easy, we have to blame an inanimate object instead.

this is the most ridiculous logic i have ever heard of.

edited to add this:

upon considering this i feel as though we are all wasting out time trying to convince a person of something they will simply refuse to believe no matter what they are told. which leads me to question why they even bothered to start this discussion if they dont want to discuss this with an open mind.

if you dont want to even acknowledge an opposing view much concede to it possible merits then dont start a discussion.

[edit on 18-6-2004 by ThePrankMonkey]

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
but we LOVE to blame the gun dont we? heavan forbid we blame the person doing the crime, that would be too easy, we have to blame an inanimate object instead.

Guns are to blame for a lot of accidents, escalations and horrible mistakes. Fact is that these tragedies would not have happened, or with less damage if guns would not have been legal. I did not try to say guns are responsible for peoples actions, but I think you know this as well. Playing ignorant does not really work in your advantage.

this is the most ridiculous logic i have ever heard of.

Yeah I know.

i feel as though we are all wasting out time trying to convince a person of something they will simply refuse to believe no matter what they are told. which leads me to question why they even bothered to start this discussion if they dont want to discuss this with an open mind.

Heh, an open mind?
I guess an open mind means agreeing in the "a pillow is as dangerous as a gun" part?
Or maybe I should be more "open" to these retarded comparisons between cars, planes, bikes and guns? They're all dangerous right?
Trust me, I have a pretty open mind, but not to ignorance like that.

[edit on 20-6-2004 by Jakko]

guns dont kill people! its the phycos with guns that kill people. thats why we need to do what germany does. they make poeple talk to a shrink to see if they are capable of handling a gun responsiblly. and they did that after they had their FIRST school shooting. how come we cant get # like that done. weve had what? 3 or 4 major school shotings? and nothing like that has come into consideration!

Hey, with the qoute, I can't find that in any of my writings. I couldn't find the "Make a gun in the garage" quote. I did talk about how easy it is to make a bomb, and how a kid could make one in the garage, but a gun? No.

And how is a gun not in the same catagory as a car or pillow? You use it right, no one dies unless it is in self defense or army and so forth. A car is for transorting people, but a woman ran her cheating husband over, backed up, ran him over again, backed up, repeat. A pillow is used to rest your head upon to sleep, but people have smothered each other many times over the years. Also, a pillow is more dangerous than a gun or a car cause all you need is the pillow to kill someone while a gun needs bullets/trigger/hammer and a car needs gas/engine/tires and so forth. A car without an engine or a gun without a trigger is as dangerous as a gun without a bullet or a car without gas. They can't do much. But all you need for a pillow is the pillow. Also, a car can be identified, liscense plates and serial numbers, paint, type, build, so forth. A gun can be identified by the type of bullet used, marks on the bullet, registration numbers and so forth. A pillow? No ID needed, no registration, nothing. Same with a bat, or wrench, or big book.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
guns dont kill people!

i am reminded of a charcter on king of the hill that once said "guns dont kill people, the government does"


anyway i'm done with this farce of a conversation, ivan and james if you two want to play saint jude go right ahead jakko isnt going to acknowledge you're even communicating with him much less recognize that your arguments have any merit at all.


ahhhh run! guns are the evil of the planet they are all that is wrong with our world! people only die because of guns, get rid of them and people will live forever!

blah blah blah...

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

As for solving problems with guns, it really doesn't happen as often as it seems it does. More people are stabbed or strangled or even beaten to death than are shot.

Uh, not EVEN close. There are FAR more gun deaths than any other method.



This is from the Department of Justice, so I think that they would know. Her is another little tidbit for you.



The really sad thing in that there are more gun deaths in the US than the rest of the World combined

[edit on 6-20-2004 by nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by nyarlathotep

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

As for solving problems with guns, it really doesn't happen as often as it seems it does. More people are stabbed or strangled or even beaten to death than are shot.

Uh, not EVEN close. There are FAR more gun deaths than any other method.

Yikes, when did i say that, and what crack was I smoking. I don't think that is what I meant to say.

It's funny though, I take a look at those statistics about once a month for various reasons.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
ahhhh run! guns are the evil of the planet they are all that is wrong with our world! people only die because of guns, get rid of them and people will live forever!

blah blah blah...

Is your object to look like a retard, or are you trying to use a "funny" way to tell me the whole anti-gun movement is a bunch of hysteric idiots?

Once again, if you want to stop discussing this issue, fine with me. But don't act as if it's weird I don't have an "open mind" to the whole pillow/car nonsense.
This is about guns, not about cars, planes, boats, rocks, snakes, sharks, books and whatever other objects that are "dangerous" as well.

Originally posted by nyarlathotep

The really sad thing in that there are more gun deaths in the US than the rest of the World combined

[edit on 6-20-2004 by nyarlathotep]

Thanks for this information, I knew it was bad but I never knew this.
I wonder what the pro-gun people in this thread have to say as a reply to this...
Hopefully it's not something with pillows.


[edit on 21-6-2004 by Jakko]

Uh, I wouldn't go around calling MODS retarded, even if it was Bush.

Anyways, but guess what? The country that has the most guns per person has the lowest crime rate, IN THE WORLD! Aussie's banned guns, and hey have, geuss what? ONE OF THE HIGHEST! Funny, according to you, a gun commits crimes. A person just happens to be there with the gun in his hand. It is just so sad you people are so ignorant. "Guns are bad guns are bad guns are bad!!!!!! Guns go out and kill people!" In reality "People are bad people are bad people are bad!!!!! People go out and kill people!" A gun is not as effective as you say they are. I shoot you in the arm with a .22, you live. I hit you in the arm in a minivan going as fast as a .22 bullet, you die. I shoot you in the leg, you live. I use a sword and cut your leg off, you die. Sure, I could have a shotgun, leave little BBs in you, and if lucky, I kill you. Or I use a wrench and crush your skull. A shotgun isn't really good to kill people. Hit in the skull from behind at 20yards, you gonna live. Now if it is a rifle you would most likely die. But hit you in the head with a car, ou going to die, no matter what kind of car.

Also, I can kill you many ways with a car. Run you over, hit you, drag you behind it for a few miles, drop it on you, smash your head in the door. A gun needs a bullet or a heavy stock to crack your skull open.

And again, a gun can't just jump up and shoot you. It needs a person to aim and pull the trigger. A gun can't decide it hates you cause you black, or from a dif. gang, or it caught you cheating on it, or you were breaking into it's house and threatened it, it can't just "go off". A person needs to pull the trigger.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, I wouldn't go around calling MODS retarded, even if it was Bush.

I didn't call anyone retarded, I asked wether it was his intention to look like a retard or not.

The country that has the most guns per person has the lowest crime rate, IN THE WORLD! Aussie's banned guns, and hey have, geuss what? ONE OF THE HIGHEST!

Got any links to backup your words?
The graphs show something else, more people dieing in USA due to guns than in all other countries in the world combined.

Funny, according to you, a gun commits crimes.

Oh man, I suggest you try to read my last posts a few more times.

It is just so sad you people are so ignorant.

Ah well, that statement at least assures me that you're having a pretty hard time reading or understanding my posts.

"Guns are bad guns are bad guns are bad!!!!!! Guns go out and kill people!" In reality "People are bad people are bad people are bad!!!!! People go out and kill people!"

And what do people use to kill people in most cases?

A gun is not as effective as you say they are. I shoot you in the arm with a .22, you live. I hit you in the arm in a minivan going as fast as a .22 bullet, you die.

Here we go again. What kind of ignorant way of reasoning is this?
If I hit you in the arm with a freaking airplane you'll die also, but this discussion is not about all objects that form a danger to health it's about guns.

And again, a gun can't just jump up and shoot you. It needs a person to aim and pull the trigger.

You're very bright...

A gun can't decide it hates you cause you black, or from a dif. gang, or it caught you cheating on it, or you were breaking into it's house and threatened it, it can't just "go off". A person needs to pull the trigger.

Exactly, guns make it too easy to kill someone in a split second.
The escalation factor when guns come in the game is just too high and graphs posted a few posts above this post show it.

Statistics?
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
This is in a very large part due to Switzerland's unique system of national defence, developed over the centuries.

news.bbc.co.uk... for the rest of this. But look, lots of guns, so little gun crime it doesn't even register.

* Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."2
* Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3
www.gunowners.org... for more.

See, I can do research when I feel like it. The Swiss have about the most guns per person, yet the least crime commited with a gun. The Aussies, Canucks, and many more ban/restric guns, and they have crime through the roof.

Gun-control enthusiasts in the United States and western Europe have a lot to answer for on the heels of two reports last week that prove, beyond a doubt, the barbaric lunacy of ensuring citizens are defenseless against armed criminal threats.
In the first, a British paper reported authorities have seen a 35 percent increase in gun violence in 2002 � not so ironically, in the sixth year since Parliament passed a law banning personal ownership of most firearms
www.worldnetdaily.com...

This kinda proves the Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People. And A car makes it easier to kill people, alot easier than a gun. I could rent a truck, totally unkown person goes nuts and runs down dozens of people who were walking on a sidewalk. Alot easier and less danger than an automatic weapon.

One year after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns, to be destroyed in a government program costing over 500 million dollars, the results are in...

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.

Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
Wow, guns sure are bad! Now that they are banned in Aussie land they use mind control to make people commit crimes since they can no longer force people to use them to kill people in Aussie Land.


Ah-hem, in the words of Eve Dallas, "Bite me."

Originally posted by James the Lesser

news.bbc.co.uk...

This link does not help you prove your point at all.
It clearly states:
But other commentators suggest that the reality is more complicated.

Switzerland is one of the world's richest countries, but has remained relatively isolated.

It has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.

Guns are not the reason for the low crime rates, the gun laws as they are now, are more likely a result of the low crime rates.

www.gunowners.org...

This link is just as subjective as you are. The information presented is inaccurate, misleading and in most cases even plain wrong.

Here, watch this:

6. Fact: The United States has experienced far fewer TOTAL MURDERS than Europe does over the last 70 years. In trying to claim that gun-free Europe is more peaceful than America, gun control advocates routinely ignore the overwhelming number of murders that have been committed in Europe.
* Over the last 70 years, Europe has averaged about 400,000 murders per year, when one includes the murders committed by governments against mostly unarmed people.17 That murder rate is about 16 times higher than the murder rate in the U.S.18

Sounds impressive eh? Now watch how they get these numbers:

17 The number of people killed by their own government in Europe averages about 400,000 for the last 70 years. This includes Hitler's extermination of Jews, gypsies and other peoples (20,946,000); Stalin's genocide against the Ukrainian kulaks (6,500,000); and more. R.J. Rummel, Death by Government (2000), pp. 8 and 80.

What a bunch of ignorant retards. Including all genocides in the "average murder numbers" to prove their flawed point. To me that entire site in their makers are plain and utterly stupid.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

What's this? Another "crime rates raised because of anti-gun laws" opinion, by some pro-gun idiot?
The laws against guns in the UK were accepted 6 years ago. Ignoring any improvement in this period, just paying attention to the numbers when they are raising again, is just foolish and misleading.
That article does not prove any connection between these anti-gun laws and raising crime rates and uses the most simple childish form of conclusion-creation there is.
"First A happened, then 6 years later B happened, so B is result of A."

I could rent a truck, totally unkown person goes nuts and runs down dozens of people who were walking on a sidewalk. Alot easier and less danger than an automatic weapon.

I think for robberies or specific targets, a truck will not be as handy as a gun. I still have no clue why you're comparing guns to cars and trucks, it seems a little bit silly to me. The typical way of reasoning that someone uses when they're out of strong arguments.

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
Wow, guns sure are bad! Now that they are banned in Aussie land they use mind control to make people commit crimes since they can no longer force people to use them to kill people in Aussie Land.

Is this from your pathetic pro-gun site again?
Or did you make this up yourself?

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Jakko]

Wow, didn't see this one coming.(note the sarcasm) I provide evidence, and you just go "That is from a pro gun idiot(you did say idiot) and it all lies. Just because they have statistics and facts doesn't mean anything. You stupid for believeing in these facts!" Anyways, I provided proof, I provided statistics, I provided what you wanted, and you just disclaim all of it as me being an idiot. No name calling in the pit.

You gave me 3 links.
The first one was about Switzerland, but did not support any of your ideas.
The second one was ran by idiots, and clearly not to be taken serious, containing misleading and false info. (including the WWII genocide in their "crime" statistics)
The third one was not statistics or proof, it was an opinion of a pro-guns guy, making quick assumptions and silly conclusions as a result of raising crime rates in the UK, 6 years after an anti-gun law was enforced.

If this is the best you can come up with, then I wonder why you joined this discussion in the first place.

Originally posted by Jakko

The first one was about Switzerland, but did not support any of your ideas.
The second one was ran by idiots, and clearly not to be taken serious, containing misleading and false info. (including the WWII genocide in their "crime" statistics)


If this is the best you can come up with, then I wonder why you joined this discussion in the first place.

Ok, the first didn't support my ideas? My ideas that guns don't kill, and a place with more guns per person than anyone else has the lowest crime rate? I think that supports my ideas of the fact that guns don't kill, for if they did, there would be no one left in Switzerland for they would all be dead, for the guns would have killed them.

The second one has no facts? According to you? They are facts, but you don't like them, so they aren't correct. Well then, that is a great way to argue! "I don't like your facts, they must be wrong!"

Well, one thing I know is ...

More tires lead to car wreck death's than anything else.
They seem to be involved everytime.

Tires are bad, and should be outlawed.


Fortunatly though, even though I think tires lead to too many death's, (especially when related to drugs and alcohol), my ancestors had them available to them during the revolutionary war.

Originally posted by James the Lesser

My idea that guns don't kill

Correct!

Guns don�t kill people, people kill people. Banning people from owning guns will do nothing to make our society a safer place as it is the intent of the criminal we should fear, and that will remain the same whatever the gun laws.

I would say in a majority of crimes that involve firearms, the gun used is not legally held or registered.

Many people use guns for other reasons. For example, farmers need guns in order to protect their stock and crops from pests, e.g. rabbits, birds, deer, foxes..

More facts and websites supporting me. I know, you don't like those facts, they must be wrong.

Vancouver, BC - Restrictive firearm legislation has failed to reduce gun violence in Australia, Canada, or Great Britain. The policy of confiscating guns has been an expensive failure, according to a new paper The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales, released today by The Fraser Institute.
www.fraserinstitute.ca...

OBSERVABLE FACT AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%!
The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.
The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.
There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.
At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm".
From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia have averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.
Wow, banning guns so law abbiding citizens are left defenseless was a reat idea!

AIC - Australian Institute of Criminology
ABS - Australian Bureau of Statistics

"Licensed gun owners are law-abiding citizens with legitimate reasons for owning the weapons they have." "In over 90 per cent of firearm-related homicides the offenders are not licensed and the weapons are not registered." "Not one handgun used in a homicide between 1997 and 1999 was used by a licensed owner."
"The Licencing and Registration Status of Firearms used in Homicides" AIC Report - Jenny Mouzos - May 2000 Full Report pdf

Therefore, if relative lethality is measured by the number of victims killed, a firearm is not the most lethal instrument of homicide."
Jenny Mouzos - AIC Researcher - "Homicidal Encounters - A Study of Homicide in Australia" Australian Institute of Criminology. Page 90 17/7/2000

For More, Go Here! www.ssaa.org.au...

You want charts and graphs and fancy pictures? www.gunsandcrime.org...

I am putting as many freaking links as possible, I typed in Gun Crimes in Australia in google. Here is another link! home.pacbell.net...

Is the Wall Street Journal a pro-gun newspaper? www.tsra.com...

I am going to put up so many from many dif. sources so you can't go "Well, thats just 3 sources stating facts I don't like, so they wrong and I will disregard them." Here is another one. www.thetruthseeker.co.uk... And it states the same facts and stats as the others do, the ones you called "Made up by idiots"

More! www.worldmag.com...

Hell, this Australian did a huge thing on the gun ban and why they don't work. www.overflow.net.au...

What does all this support? It supports the fact that GUNS DON"T KILL OR COMMIT CRIMES! Meaning all you "Guns are Bad!" people are not correct. Places that ban guns have higher crime rates than places that hand them out.

www.fff.org...
www.smh.com.au...
www.calnews.com...
www.objectivists.org.au...
www.freerepublic.com...

There, I have posted 13 dif. sites. Wall Street Journal, World Magazine, and other sources. You can't go "Well, I don't like those facts, so they wrong" this time! About 5-7 sites state the same facts!
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
and much more stated above and other links!

Originally posted by nyarlathotepThe really sad thing in that there are more gun deaths in the US than the rest of the World combined

[edit on 6-20-2004 by nyarlathotep]

percent wise its far better than other western nations, since 93 violent crimes of all kinds have dramatically fell while going up in canada and europe, if you bothered to read that site more you'd know numbers are relative and crime is less than much of the world.



[edit on 23-6-2004 by namehere]

Accidental Deaths in the U.S. for 1998

Source is the National Safety Council

41,200 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents,
16,600 in falls at home and on the job,
4,100 from water in drowning,
9,400 from poisoning, in the same year,
3,700 due to fire or burns,
3,200 due to choking, and
900 from guns
Note that the top category of vehicle accidents is 45 times greater than the bottom
category of guns. Should we outlaw cars, and ladders?

If guns cause crime do matches cause arson?

If guns cause crime does water cause drowning?

If guns cause crime needles cause drug abuse?

If guns cause crime it must be said that pencils misspell words.

God made man & woman, Sam Colt made man & woman equal.