HAARP Is Out Of Control, You be the judge!!!

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
HAARP can communicate with a submarine if it wants to .
Right Phage.
It does not need to transmit a LFsignal to do that either does it Phage?.
Could HAARP just manipulate it on to a carrier that it bounces off the ionosphere??

Not now that we don't use ELF in subs.

And, no, it can't "manipulate it onto a carrier". That, again, is sort of like you thinking ELF radio was just sound. [/quot]

What does "not now " mean?
I have never stated ELF is just sound.
Can you read my mind incorrectly also?

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

The Sun "super charges" the ionosphere millions of times more than HAARP can. Every day.

Bees smell fear, and the human head weighs about eight pounds.

That to say, your post is a non sequitur. It doesn't matter if the sun "supercharges" the ionosphere.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
HAARP can communicate with a submarine if it wants to .
Right Phage.
It does not need to transmit a LFsignal to do that either does it Phage?.
Could HAARP just manipulate it on to a carrier that it bounces off the ionosphere??

Not now that we don't use ELF in subs.

And, no, it can't "manipulate it onto a carrier". That, again, is sort of like you thinking ELF radio was just sound.

What exactly does "Not now "mean?

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
HAARP can communicate with a submarine if it wants to .
Right Phage.
It does not need to transmit a LFsignal to do that either does it Phage?.
Could HAARP just manipulate it on to a carrier that it bounces off the ionosphere??

Not now that we don't use ELF in subs.

And, no, it can't "manipulate it onto a carrier". That, again, is sort of like you thinking ELF radio was just sound.

What exactly does "Not now "mean?

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
HAARP can communicate with a submarine if it wants to .
Right Phage.
It does not need to transmit a LFsignal to do that either does it Phage?.
Could HAARP just manipulate it on to a carrier that it bounces off the ionosphere??

Not now that we don't use ELF in subs.

And, no, it can't "manipulate it onto a carrier". That, again, is sort of like you thinking ELF radio was just sound.

What exactly does "Not now "mean?

Ok, Donny - here are a smattering of your posts that show you thought it was audio. I also recall you saying something about a speaker up thread, and pretty sure there was an "oh, it's just radio with a lot of power", but I'm not rereading the entire forum for you:

ELF is not even a radio wave.
Why do you call other members IGNORANT
when you make statements like this in the same post??????

The AUDIO range of frequencies is not radio.
BTW how would you guys transmit .5 Hz from NY to LA like a Ham would transmit on 30 meters.

I have proved my case that radio is transmitted in free air and Audio
20 kHz and lower is just Low frequency or Audio.

And as for "not now", the sub fleet no longer uses ELF for submerged communication. Hasn't for a few years now.

reply to post by Donny 4 million

Yes. I said that HAARP is studying the production and propagation of VLF and ELF waves, in the ionosphere. I also said that the reason for that study is for applications in long range communications (including to submarines).

I try to choose my words carefully. One reason is to make sure people cannot say I said things that I did not, as you just attempted to do (poorly).

I did not say that HAARP transmits ELF waves and I did not say that HAARP communicates with submarines.

[edit on 3/21/2010 by Phage]

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Now, if this is the case, how can you tell me that you know DEFINITIVELY what electromagnetic radiation can, or cannot do?

Ah, the "If you don't know everything about something, then anything is possible, and there COULD BE fairies in the garden, therefore you must believe anything anyone says as possibly being true" argument. I see that one a lot, along with demands to disprove negatives and the like.

Well, I see it like this. We know a lot of stuff certainly appears to be true, some of it every time it's tested. Lots of people try to disprove this stuff by setting up experiments that should be able to tell is this or that aspect of it actually true, and verifiable? Things that can't be disproven are held in low esteem until the tests can be made. Over time we find that aspects of things we thought we knew were special cases, or were really something different, and then the list of things we thought we knew gets updated. And that's called science. It's not perfect, but it's our best attempt to codify what we know vs what we think. It evolves constantly over time. And you know, a lot of times it works as advertised. Thus are you sitting in front of a computer that works, and works because of science, and not some shaman doing the funky chicken with a yak leg appealing to the gods.

If I were a layman with no understanding whatever of this sort of thing, I could see how looking at a picture of the IRI would fill you with dread. But remember, they built the thing knowing how steered arrays worked, and it did! It's not like they just stick things together willy-nilly.

There's also an aspect of retard Bush/evil supergenius Bush in your argument - he can't be both. You seem to be arguing both that no one knows what it can do, yet someone was able to design a piece of equipment explicitly for the purpose of doing .... something. It can't be both.

Well, that's a confusing way to try to explain your stance, however...I understand your line of thinking.

Also, just so you know...I don't think of Bush as anything. He is absolutely irrelevant to me, and as far as I'm concerned, he's even irrelevant to himself.

Thanks for your post and opinion.

I'm not trying to invoke Bush as much as point out a line of reasoning I find fallacious - it seems odd to me to try to make an argument that something is intentionally nefarious and superscientific, but then try to also argue that no-one knows what anything really does. It's sort of an oxymoron at a meme level.

A similar one that came to mind is the Bush evil genius/retard meme where he is a slack-jawed fool (probably) but also able to perpetrate any number of supercrimes such as 9/11 (unlikely).

I agree that I was sort of wandering on that post. I recall being half asleep.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

Please provide a source for your statement that HAARP can transmit ELF frequencies.


[edit on 3/21/2010 by Phage]

Source for statements of ELF frequency generation:
HAARP, ELF signals

ELF production of HAARP (very reputable)
www-star.stanford.edu...

Generic Information:
en.wikipedia.org...

Not very reputable:
www.brojon.org...


Also, for those who disbelieve that HAARP is a directed energy device that can steer frequencies, you might want to check out this particular quote from the Stanford Research Center:

The 1 MW radiated EISCAT facility near Tromsø, Norway, has performed ELF/VLF experiments [e.g., Stubbe et al., 1982], including an HF beam steering ability utilized by Rietveld et al. [1984] to observe electrojet spatial structure.

I'm pretty sure that this should be sufficient enough to prove my point. And not to be insulting to anyone at all, but, this is how I know that most people have not really studied HAARP and its capabilities.


[edit on 22-3-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry

Source for statements of ELF frequency generation:
HAARP, ELF signals

ELF production of HAARP (very reputable)
www-star.stanford.edu...

Did you read this? It says exactly what I've been posting - the IRI cannot directly emit ELF. They induce the auroral electrojet to emit ELF by wobbling it with low-density areas burned into the ionosphere by the array.

By the way, most HAARP research, and related ionospheric research at other sites, is published in Geophysical Research Letters. Good site.

If you'd like more info about a project that ran at HAARP for a while that they declassified in 2005, go look up Dr Helliwell's research at Siple Station, it is in GRL as well.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


Well EM--- I am not much for the chicken and egg bull-crap other members are playing.
They are the propagators of ignorance IMHO not the deniers.
HAARP was designed as a weapon. Many countries have these type devices.
Any evolved life form knows this.
Later, EM and good luck with the shills.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry

Source for statements of ELF frequency generation:
HAARP, ELF signals

ELF production of HAARP (very reputable)
www-star.stanford.edu...

Did you read this? It says exactly what I've been posting - the IRI cannot directly emit ELF. They induce the auroral electrojet to emit ELF by wobbling it with low-density areas burned into the ionosphere by the array.

By the way, most HAARP research, and related ionospheric research at other sites, is published in Geophysical Research Letters. Good site.

If you'd like more info about a project that ran at HAARP for a while that they declassified in 2005, go look up Dr Helliwell's research at Siple Station, it is in GRL as well.

To my knowledge, you and Phage both said that HAARP had absolutely NO ELF transmission capabilities, in which case...you would be incorrect. I am aware that it must be coupled in order to make it happen. But, it doesn't matter how it happens, its the fact that IT DOES HAPPEN.

However, you had the base principle down, and I do understand that. But, it does not take away from the idea that HAARP still has the ability to harness ELF capabilities.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

Well EM--- I am not much for the chicken and egg bull-crap other members are playing.
They are the propagators of ignorance IMHO not the deniers.
HAARP was designed as a weapon. Many countries have these type devices.
Any evolved life form knows this.
Later, EM and good luck with the shills.

Thank you very much for your participation Donnie. But, don't give up the good fight yet. These guys aren't our enemies, they are simply trying to understand the same stuff that we are. Believe it or not, every time that I have to encounter someone who challenges me, it forces me to adapt and learn why they think the way that they think. This is education in every aspect. I have learned from both Phage and Bedlam. Each of them are informed and educated people and are doing their best to present valid information that we can all gain knowledge from.

Don't take this stuff personal when they disagree because you have been very instrumental in this whole process. Don't think for a minute that your work has not forced them to think and evaluate your point of view.

Much love to all...

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry

Also, for those who disbelieve that HAARP is a directed energy device that can steer frequencies, you might want to check out this particular quote from the Stanford Research Center:

The 1 MW radiated EISCAT facility near Tromsø, Norway, has performed ELF/VLF experiments [e.g., Stubbe et al., 1982], including an HF beam steering ability utilized by Rietveld et al. [1984] to observe electrojet spatial structure.

This is great! First off, there's no such thing as "steering frequencies"; that's harking back to mid-thread where it was addressed that "frequency" is an attribute of something else, and doesn't exist as a proper noun sort of thing. Whenever you say "frequency" you have to add "of what" or the statement's incomplete. And at any rate, the frequency of something is not something you'd steer.

However, you've once more hit something I've been pointing out over and over - most of the ionospheric heaters are beam steered arrays, otherwise known as phased arrays. Certainly the IRI at HAARP is a beam steered array. That's why you see that "field of antennae" look. For HF, that's what a phased array looks like due to physical constraints of the antenna structure. For microwaves, it tends to look more like a flat plate, at least they do these days.

I'm pretty sure that this should be sufficient enough to prove my point. And not to be insulting to anyone at all, but, this is how I know that most people have not really studied HAARP and its capabilities.

But so far, your last post and edit have showed that you don't understand that the HAARP IRI doesn't emit ELF (or LF at all - it's an HF device), and you proved it by posting a very nice link that you attribute as being very trustworthy - the contents of which proves my point that it does NOT.

Same for this edit that adds the bit about "steering frequencies".

You have to understand the things you're posting and reading, or you're not really studying them at all. It's like that list of "HAARP patents" at the start. If you don't understand what they say, then you're only echoing Begich et al and not really making any progress.

It also reminds me of that long post a couple of pages back with the EU resolution - if you don't read the footnote that tells you the technical content came from Begich, the man with the mail order PhD in homeopathy, then you don't realize it's tripe.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
To my knowledge, you and Phage both said that HAARP had absolutely NO ELF transmission capabilities, in which case...you would be incorrect. I am aware that it must be coupled in order to make it happen. But, it doesn't matter how it happens, its the fact that IT DOES HAPPEN

Nope. What I said, have been saying, and continue to say because it is correct, is that HAARP cannot transmit ELF, but can induce the electrojet to emit it by painting on low density areas to cause it to wobble.

YOU guys have been saying it transmits ELF, which is wrong. It can't output ELF.

the ramifications that can occur by consistently probing the ionosphere with powerful and amplified RF, HF, ELF frequencies.

However, this "transmitter," as you call it, sends out 3.6 megawatts of pure amplification of RF, HF, ELF frequencies.

But the larger point is - so what? The paper you cited states (and I think optimistically) that the best they've managed to get efficiency wise is about 0.001%, which is amazingly high. There are other papers you didn't cite that are related to this which show that there is a saturation point beyond which increases in input power do not result in any increase in output power. Let's say 0.001% is accurate, though, since you liked that paper. 3.6MW input, 36W output. Oh noes! The end of the world is upon us!

And you can only get that 36W output at certain times, more often than not you cannot, due to the electrojet not being present, or accessible, or conditions being amenable to the technique they use to manipulate it.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
To my knowledge, you and Phage both said that HAARP had absolutely NO ELF transmission capabilities, in which case...you would be incorrect. I am aware that it must be coupled in order to make it happen. But, it doesn't matter how it happens, its the fact that IT DOES HAPPEN

Nope. What I said, have been saying, and continue to say because it is correct, is that HAARP cannot transmit ELF, but can induce the electrojet to emit it by painting on low density areas to cause it to wobble.

YOU guys have been saying it transmits ELF, which is wrong. It can't output ELF.

the ramifications that can occur by consistently probing the ionosphere with powerful and amplified RF, HF, ELF frequencies.

However, this "transmitter," as you call it, sends out 3.6 megawatts of pure amplification of RF, HF, ELF frequencies.

But the larger point is - so what? The paper you cited states (and I think optimistically) that the best they've managed to get efficiency wise is about 0.001%, which is amazingly high. There are other papers you didn't cite that are related to this which show that there is a saturation point beyond which increases in input power do not result in any increase in output power. Let's say 0.001% is accurate, though, since you liked that paper. 3.6MW input, 36W output. Oh noes! The end of the world is upon us!

And you can only get that 36W output at certain times, more often than not you cannot, due to the electrojet not being present, or accessible, or conditions being amenable to the technique they use to manipulate it.

Now, there's no need to become belligerent. That doesn't help you, nor me, or anyone who will come to this thread attempting to learn this valuable information. And, no one said anything about the end of the world. Even when its the end of the world for human beings, its still not the end of the world.

To me, it doesn't matter how they achieve ELF frequencies, it is that they do. It absolutely DOES NOT MATTER what the method is or how you perceive the success rate. ELF capabilities are there. However, that is actually beside the point of the entire thread itself. I claim no definitive "proof" that HAARP is causing anything. That is the very reason that I posted in the title of this thread, "HAARP is out of control, you be the judge." This is about YOUR opinion of the matter. Not mine. I presented very general information, made some links, and let everyone else come up with their own determination. If you haven't noticed, I have made zero attempt to convince you of anything. Whatever exists in your reality mainframe is yours and yours alone.

Personally, I hope and pray that HAARP cannot and will not be used as weaponry. But, I am also aware that the potential for it to be used as weaponry exists. This may totally contradict your idea of what it can and cannot do, however, there is a solid reason why other countries and governments have their own version. And I highly doubt it is simply to study the effects of the Aurora, and discover the exciting world of the ionosphere. If that were the case, one institution would be sufficient for the whole world and researchers would simply solicit HAARP, which came after Sura, for all of their ionospheric research needs. Also, why are all of these facilities owned by the military industrial complex as opposed to being financed by privatized corporations like the LHC? The only exception to this would be Eiscat which was funded and built by several different countries. You might want to ask yourself that. Military owned technology usually has military applications...no matter what.

Nonetheless...You are welcome to your own opinion, and I thank you very much for your contributions to this thread. Most of your information that you have provided is intelligent and well thought out. Some of it was stuff that I had yet to see, therefore, I have to congratulate you on a job well done. Just leave the sarcasm out of it, and you would be a great asset and teacher for others.

Much love to all...

reply to post by Bedlam

Indeed, as the paper suggests, it is exceptionally hard to transmit ELF frequencies and that it has been an effort that scientists have tried to replicate time and again. However, it is not IMPOSSIBLE as has been suggested numerous times on this thread. Since we're arguing semantics here, and that's all it is, we still have to come back to the reality about HAARP. They have found a way to manipulate ELF frequencies, and they do this as often as possible because of the notable difficulty that it presents.

Much love to all...


[edit on 22-3-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

There is a big difference between saying HAARP transmits 3.6Mw of ELF radiation and saying HAARP is capable of inducing ELF radiation in the ionosphere.

The ability to produce ELF radiation is highly dependent on the ambient conditions over Gakona and the strength of the radiation produced is very small. The EMF produced at the closest point to the point of origin is hundreds of thousands of times less powerful than the EMF found in a typical office. It is detectable only with extremely sensitive equipment.

Do you have any information that indicates that they perform ELF experiments "as often as possible". There are a lot of different experiments done at HAARP. Many do not use the heater. Those experiments must be scheduled to avoid conflicts. It is not as if someone says "Oh look! It's perfect for ELF generation! Fire up the heater!"

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

There is a big difference between saying HAARP transmits 3.6Mw of ELF radiation and saying HAARP is capable of inducing ELF radiation in the ionosphere.

The ability to produce ELF radiation is highly dependent on the ambient conditions over Gakona and the strength of the radiation produced is very small. The EMF produced at the closest point to the point of origin is hundreds of thousands of times less powerful than the EMF found in a typical office. It is detectable only with extremely sensitive equipment.

Do you have any information that indicates that they perform ELF experiments "as often as possible". There are a lot of different experiments done at HAARP. Many do not use the heater. Those experiments must be scheduled to avoid conflicts. It is not as if someone says "Oh look! It's perfect for ELF generation! Fire up the heater!"

No, I can't provide a source that says that they manipulate ELF frequencies as much as possible. It is too open ended of a statement to prove definitively. As much as possible could be once every minute, or once every 10 years. And yes Phage, I am also aware that they use HAARP for a variety of different reasons, therefore, your statement resonates as truth.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. As I said before, I now understand you better and appreciate your input to my many threads.

Much love to all...

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Now, there's no need to become belligerent. That doesn't help you, nor me, or anyone who will come to this thread attempting to learn this valuable information. And, no one said anything about the end of the world. Even when its the end of the world for human beings, its still not the end of the world.

I'm not being belligerent. Just setting the record straight. And, trying to elicit a response from you as to why HAARP having anything to do with ELF, VLF or whatever LF band you care to choose bothers you.

This may totally contradict your idea of what it can and cannot do, however, there is a solid reason why other countries and governments have their own version. And I highly doubt it is simply to study the effects of the Aurora, and discover the exciting world of the ionosphere. If that were the case, one institution would be sufficient for the whole world and researchers would simply solicit HAARP, which came after Sura, for all of their ionospheric research needs. Also, why are all of these facilities owned by the military industrial complex as opposed to being financed by privatized corporations like the LHC? The only exception to this would be Eiscat which was funded and built by several different countries. You might want to ask yourself that. Military owned technology usually has military applications...no matter what.

There is a LOT of duplication of facilities for anything. Especially when academia or the military's involved, as they said on Contact, why buy one when you can get two for twice the price? Not far down the road from HAARP is the PFRR, which reduplicates several of HAARP's instruments and even includes a small heater.

As far as "does it have military applications", that is the big question to be asked, frankly. And the answer is, well of course it does. But you guys are focused on earthquakes, death beams, mind control, hurricanes, EMP bombs and other lurid science fiction fantasies surrounding the installation, and just missing out on the very real but much more boring applications. And of course, most of what goes on is pure research.