reply to post by OldThinker
Hi OT,
I haven't seen one of your threads for a while ... good to see that our still around.
Firstly ... No one, religious or non religious, can argue with any philosophies, some that have been attributed to Jesus, that teach showing your
others love, compassion and honesty.
So let me have a crack at this.
Originally posted by OldThinker
Why do you ignore the facts…
I don't think it's quite as black and white as non Christians ignoring any "facts" about Christianity ...
Its how you approach information. You, OT approach the information from a Christian perspective, evident in your reply to seatletruth in regards to
Islamic contribution to our world. I hope that you are indeed aware of Islam's contribution to our worlds cultural evolution. If you are then you
were simply being contrary with seatletruth for the sake of being contrary, which I guess for the sake of debate, is ok. If you aren't aware then
maybe, just maybe, you are guilty of ignoring some of the facts yourself ... ??
OK ... lets have a look at some of your points:
1. People of faith initiated the creation of laws/concept of justice. (Before this was the survival of the fittest!)
I disagree that before the creation of laws there was no concept of justice and the only rules were survival of the fittest.
New archeological discoveries have found that complex social groups existed well before the 10 Commandments or any other organised religion. For these
complex social groups to exist there was clear and developed idea's of justice and morals.
www.physorg.com...
2. Laws for providing the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields. (Pentateuch).
Before Christianity, the Roman Empire had a dole system that handed out free food.
An excellent account of the sub sequent history of the grain dole can be found in H. J. Haskell’s book, The New Deal in Old Rome. I summarize
this history here:
There was no means test. Any one willing to stand in the bread line could take advantage of the low prices ... Then a politician named Claudius ran
for tribune on a free-wheat platform, and won.
Nearly 300 years later, under the Emperor Aurelian, the dole was extended and made hereditary. Two pounds of bread were issued daily to all registered
citizens who applied. In addition, pork, olive oil, and salt were distributed free at regular intervals.
3. Dietary laws which instituted basic hygiene at a time when only a few civilizations practiced it.
But, as you state here, Christian societies were not the first to develop the concept of social hygiene. I would argue that this is just a natural
progression during the natural development of a society
4. Jesus' impact: His life and teachings have transformed all of world history into two periods as A.D. ("Anno Domini", Latin for "in the year of
Our Lord",) and B.C. (before Christ).
I can't argue with this.
5. Christians were the force behind getting the vote for women.
I would argue that women, regardless of spiritual orientation, were the force behind getting the vote for women. Have you got the evidence for your
claim?
6. Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property.
Is this a good thing to be putting on your resume? These factors are one of the reasons why our world is in the mess that it is in. And it has got to
that point because of the manipulation of these systems by Christian cultures and peoples.
7. Basic Christianity is behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age.
Morality is an inbuilt survival mechanism of the human race. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Moral instinct has developed complexity in
parallel to human social development. Fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age exists in Non Christian countries
as well.
8. Freedom for slaves: Wilberforce's Christian beliefs motivated him to work for liberation of slaves, and to work for child labor laws.
But slavery still exists today, maybe even more so than ever. This includes Christian countries like Ghana, Ethiopia and Brazil.
en.wikipedia.org...
Does Christianity take responsibility for this as quickly as it takes responsibility for the end of the British slave trade?
9. Pragmatic evidence of Jesus' teachings: WORK IN REAL LIFE.
Jesus' teachings promote healthy relationships, strong marriages, honest business practices, positive parenting, racial reconciliation, cultural
kindness, champion the value & dignity of all humans regardless of creed, race, sex, nationality, or orientation.
This brings me to a very big reason why some have a problem with the Christian Church.
If only Christians did in fact practise what their teacher preached. But, OT, on the whole, generally speaking, they do not.
Christians murder, lie, divorce, steal, segregate, discriminate, commit adultery etc, etc, etc. And yet, after being guilty of all these things, they
look you in the eye and tell you that you will go the hell because you do not prey to their Lord(s).
For us, non denominational theists , agnostics and atheists alike, this blatant hypocrisy is extremely frustrating.
10. During the great plagues, and black death - Christians cared for the sick. Jesus said to love your enemies, love everyone regardless, and care for
others.
Please see point 9
I address points 11 through 16 with this:
Someone can only be judged on their actions today. You don't get brownie points for starting a soup kitchen yesterday if today you murder someone.
If Christians started acting in the manner Jesus suggested and stopped acting with arrogance and hypocrisy then Christianity might deserve more
respect.
But while they continue to destroy the lives of others they cannot expect anything more than our pity.
Originally posted by OldThinker
1) What’s your problem with us?
2) Why do you deny truth?
3) Are you being duped by EVIL? Would you even know it?
I would ask these 3 questions right back at ya OT.
[edit on 11/3/10 by Horza]
