Calling all Skeptics-What is ur basic problem with Christians?Don’t you realize there is a devil?

reply to post by OldThinker


1) Morality pre-dates Christianity and is hard-wired into our brains. A species with compassion has a better chance at survival especially when we have young that need to be cared for in order to flourish.

2) Feeding the poor is only one of the activities engaged in by the religious, some of the others include Genocide, torture and forced conversion.

3) Can't really argue with this since I know little about the history of hygiene

4) Jesus' teachings are really great but the impacts those teachings had are downright horrific. Once Christianity became a state-sponsored religion (Romans) it was used to uphold tyranny, oppression, inquisitions, forced conversions, genocide, racism and suppression of knowledge.

6) No. You couldn't be more wrong. Laws of ownership existed LONG LONG LONG before Christ. OT have you ever read the OT (Old Testament) in it there are clearly laws of ownership written long before Christ. Likely these laws have existed in some form since the earliest beginnings of civilization.

7) Nowadays this is true. Christianity has come a long way since the inquisitions and injustices in its early days. There are a great many philosophies that support kindness to those groups in fact you'd have to be cold hearted to not support the less fortunate regardless of religion. Are you saying that Christ is the source of all kindness. Morality is not the child of religion, its more likely the other way around.

8) The Bible was used to uphold slavery due to several verses including the one telling slaves to obey their masters. There is also a strong foundation of imagery of God or Jesus as an all-powerful King, essentially a tyrant on a throne who is to be served.

9) Many of Jesus' teachings are good and he remains one of my favorite literary figures and philosophers but there are many others who taught wise things.

10) Again caring for others is nothing new, it is part of our nature to form cooperative communities.

13) Religion scares people out of divorce because of the stigma attached to it. Just because a family stays together does not mean it is a happy family.

14) There weren't many faiths other than Christianity here in the 1800s, though there were a great many different types of Christianity.


Conclusion:

Religion has done good and bad. It kept us together, bound together civilization and helped us make sense of an uncertain universe when our species was young. Myths woven with morals helped guide us and bind communities to common ends. But there is always a dark side and religion has played into the hands of those in power who would use it to manipulate. Almost from the beginning it seems there have been people taking advantage of our inherent superstition using religion to control.

1) I have no problem with Christians, merely what they believe. I believed it once and now that I know how much of what I told was a lie I never hesitate to try to wake people up from their blind belief.

2) I don't.

3) There is no Devil. There might be a 'god' or higher power though I doubt he/she/it bears resemblance to our human ideas on the subject. The Devil is a scapegoat for the only true source of evil - human beings. We are the only source of evil because we are the only being with the capability of telling right from wrong. Because of our consciousness and complex morality we can commit good or evil (which are both concepts we define) while all the other animals cannot (for instance, a scorpion that stings is not evil it is merely defending itself). I stopped checking my closet for the boogeyman years ago, the only place one needs to check is the mirror.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by OldThinker


hahah yes i guess you can say me and him were on the same page, that is if you can prove to me that he even walked the earth. Religion is a tool used against the masses, it is one of fear and control. It doesn't have to be so, it is the leaders that have distorted the message, it is plain and simple, love every and all living things no matter race or religion, tree or bird. I believe if jesus was indeed a real man he would agree. I say burn the Vatican. I mean no disrespect to anyone's religion, merely my point of veiw.

But I dont want to distract from your thread here, there are many other religion threads i could do this on.

To answer your questions:

1) I have no problems with christians I embrace all humans that are willing to love one another

2)I do not deny the truth, i seek it. You should too, i hate to be that one guy but may i suggest a trip to a local mosque or temple if only to see the "truth" through another set of eyes.

3)We are all being duped by evil, in one way or another, and yes most of us will never notice. But it is how you deal with the evils that makes you you.

Let's see what an non-believer can say about your many points of contention...

"1. People of faith initiated the creation of laws/concept of justice. (Before this was the survival of the fittest!)" The concepts of law and justice originated with the very earliest of civilizations, the laws of Hammurabi for instance. Law and justice predate Christianity by thousands of years.
2. "Laws for providing the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields. (Pentateuch)" The earliest civilizations were built on the social foundations provided by the hunter/gatherer groups that they sprang from. Those groups shared what foodstuffs they found to nourish the whole tribe. I'm pretty sure that the early civilizations did as much.
3. "Dietary laws which instituted basic hygiene at a time when only a few civilizations practiced it." As far as basic hygiene goes the Roman Empire was the most clean and hygienic civilization that the ancient world ever knew. They had public baths and operating sewer systems that channeled human waste out of their cities, thereby preventing many diseases. When Rome finally fell and the Christians took over one of the first things they did was to close the public baths because seeing naked bodies leads to lust and fornication. The sewers were allowed to fall into disrepair and decay. Lots and lots of people got sick. On a side note, Christianity is partly responsible for the Black Plaque that decimated Europe. I'll explain how if you ask me nice.
4. "Jesus' impact: His life and teachings have transformed all of world history into two periods as A.D. ("Anno Domini", Latin for "in the year of Our Lord",) and B.C. (before Christ)." This was a conceit of the Holy Roman Empire when they instituted their official calander. It signifies nothing of any actual significance.
5. "Christians were the force behind getting the vote for women." I rather think it was Women who were the force behind securing their voting rights.
6. "Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property." See answer to point #1.
7. "Basic Christianity is behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age." Please list for me all of the societies that existed before Christ that were devoid of charity towards the poor and dispossessed. It is a common human virtue.
8. "Freedom for slaves: Wilberforce's Christian beliefs motivated him to work for liberation of slaves, and to work for child labor laws." But the bible was the chief argument AGAINST abolition, since God clearly allows for the owning of slaves. In fact he endorses the subjigation of all sorts of people, especially women.
9. "Pragmatic evidence of Jesus' teachings: WORK IN REAL LIFE.
Jesus' teachings promote healthy relationships, strong marriages, honest business practices, positive parenting, racial reconciliation, cultural kindness, champion the value & dignity of all humans regardless of creed, race, sex, nationality, or orientation." You know I'm really hard-pressed to think of a single church that preaches any of these Christian values anymore. Nowadays it's all hate, hate, hate, and, as a former practicing Christian, I can honestly say that I have never met an honest Christian businessman.
10. "During the great plagues, and black death - Christians cared for the sick. Jesus said to love your enemies, love everyone regardless, and care for others." During the Black Plaque there was nobody left to care for anybody. What care that was delivered was done out of necessity. Christianity had nothing to do with it.
11. "The Red Cross was begun by a devout Calvinist Christian, Henry Dunant." And has culled a fortune on the misfortune of others ever since.
12. "The ‘Salvation Army’ and ‘Y. M. C. A.’ were begun by Christians, not the Village People! " Considering the widespread homosexual scandals that seem to plaque the churches these days, you might want to rethink the Village People reference.
13. "Divorce is less than 10% when families pray together regularly, attend church regularly, and read the bible regularly." What exactly is the source for this statistic? The best statistic concerning american marriages that i have ever seen was one that didn't just consider marriages within the first 10 years, like most of these surveys tend to do, but instead considered the entire duration of the couple from nuptuals to parting. Their finding was that an astounding 80% of all American marriages eventually end with the couples going seperate ways.
14. "When the French statesman, Alexis de Tocqueville came to this country in the early 1800's. he was startled by the volunteerism that was carried out by associations mostly founded and run by Christians, and said that America's volunteer spirit is its greatest strength.
15. Mission shelters and soup kitchens in virtually every community in this nation is sponsored for the most part by Christians to dispense Christian mercy and compassion with food and shelter to the destitute. " What do you expect from a French guy?
16. "‘Habitat for Humanity’ builds homes, ‘Prison Fellowship’ ministers to the imprisoned outcasts of society. It's ‘Project Angel Tree’ delivers hundreds of thousands of gifts and Christmas cheer to children of inmates every year. " And meanwhile non-Christians don't do squat. right? Wrong! There are unChristians manning suicide hotlines, delivering meals to elderly shut-ins, building homes for the under-privilaged and on and on and on.

Now, of course, I could recite a litany of crimes against humanity that were inspired and sanctified by your religion, but I'm pretty sure that you've heard most of it all before and can brush it off without even batting an eye. So I won't bother. Your header mentioned the Devil but, in the body of your post, he was nowhere in sight. At the end you allude to the notion that we who do not see the Church as a totally benificient thing might be dupes of EVIL. If we choose to see Christianity for what it is instead of viewing it through your oh-so-rosey-colored glasses, then is it really we who are the dupes? Sad to inform but most of the moral principles that are to be found, not only in the Torah, (you know what that is, right?) but also the New Testament, were copped from other, older religions. Even the Judgement Day that you guys love to use as fear bait for the uncommited among us was lifted almost wholehat from Zoroatrianism. Sorry.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
I don't hate Christians.

Having said that, all your points prove nothing......
[edit on 11-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

Nothing?

Really?

Nothing?

Are you using hyperbole?

Deep breath..........whoosaaaaa!!!!!

One more time, I won't bite...why do you deny the GOOD, to bouy your (percieved) position?

reply to post by concernedcitizan

The radical atheist movement, led by those such as Richard Dawkins,

WOW! And he only said "god probably doesn't exist". At least he isn't talking in absolute certainties about the issue (unlike christians).

is yet another modern movement that becomes obsessed with a problem that in itself is not huge,

As a Biologist that makes him a scientist as his primary job, and actually not a necessary component of being an athiest. Anyone can be an athiest of any religion if they disbelieve in that particular god, regardless of whatever other opinions or position they may hold.

I can see why Dawkin's and any other person of science may decide to investigate people's religious faith, especially when it often involves ignoring contradicting evidence.

So you don't think teaching creationism or that the earth is 6000 years old in school is much of a problem? I sure think it is, and that backasswards thinking is unproductive and can be dangerous.

Dawkin's asks believers why they believe without evidence... and since believers have made the reverse argument for so long, why not have some back at ya'? He makes valid argument about long extinct religions having as much or as less value as christianity.

Religious beliefs should be a personal issue, and an opinion kept to oneself, or at least respectful of those who choose not to have a faith. Therefore praying kept to the churches & home, and leaving religion out of the science classroom would be a good start, and then I and many others like Dawkin's would be happy enough to never speak of religion ever again.

So if someone wants to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, then that's their choice, but please don't insist & insist that they exist until showing me the evidence.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by john124]

I am anti God, anti satan. My fiancee was on with god and kept me sane. well as sane as one might be considered in this world. I loved her and for her scope most things she loved. I lost her to a suicide. She was killed by another person trying to commit suicide. So keep your god. Enjoy every aspect of him her or it. I can't blame your god cus if i did I would be buying in to the lie. Once i did.. once i was. Now no amount of its god's will or god works in misterious ways. Bah he doesn't. he has the best job ever he does nothing and gets the props except when it s bad. when its bad it was satan.
Too easy people are people some good some bad. life is hard enough without stupidly lying in bed wondering. If god exist then he is a moron. If he doesn't then you are. Either way. People will do good til they can't or they percieve they can't. Then they will do bad. If the pope shoot someone it is good cus its gods will if Someone shoots the pope it is satans design. Bah in both cases it was cus the one shot was stupid and walked in on someone else and got shot. Good or Evil it is just semantics. Use your words. Think for yourself. most people will come to the polite or nice choice. Those who don't, Probably did not think of it well enough or like me just don't give a damn anymore

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Nice post!

You took time and effort for sure....

TS, Hope all is well...thank you for stopping by!



OT

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Heeeeyyyy! Doctor Forrester! I thought you were dead! Glad to see you were able to shake off your mother smothering you with a pillow! What say we found a religion based upon Torgo The White with t.v.'s Frank as our savior?? Could be a money-making gig to be sure!

reply to post by Therian


Therian, glad you joined...

Count to ten, ok? I'll help you get rid of those WARN's...

You have Soooooooooooo much to offer, we can learn from you...

OT

Ok if it is not obvious I am anti religion and I let my Daughter go to church my whole family is religious but to belittle anybody that thinks different is pointless. we all are here for some reason we will probably never know why.

I am a prophet. I sense that this thread will become one of the popular topics of the forum and may accumulate many stars and flags. I also sense that there will be nothing but ranting and raving about how stupid or glorious Christianity is. You'll even have some posters say "other religions have helped shape the world in the same way Christianity has".

Everyone will go down the same path and argue the same points and by the time this thread becomes forgotten, nothing will be solved and there'll still be divided opinions on the matter.

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
I'm pretty lazy right now....

IntastellaBurst, when you are ready, bring it! OK?

I think you could offer some insight....

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

What is ur basic problem with Christians?Don’t you realize there is a devil?

Sorry, no proof the devil either. Can you define what evil is in any logical manner?

Are you being duped by EVIL? Would you even know it?

And you wonder why non-believers have problems with believers, if we have to be evil because we don't believe in god.

reply to post by john124


Science is not a metaphysical or ethical discipline. A scientist doesn't develop ethical guidelines or speak about the fundamental metaphysical nature of reality. These are academically the fields of moral and theoretical philosophy. Both disciplines have historically embraced both scientific and religious ideas, and continue to do so. In other words, the people who debate this issue don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about.

Looking at it from this perspective you quickly come to realize that this so called "reason vs. faith" debate is a confused idea about the role of science and religion in society. Only in a progressive world dominated by crowdism could we commit such a mistake, and pretend it's the biggest problem since the Enlightenment.

Originally posted by therewillberevolt
reply to post by OldThinker

 

hahah yes i guess you can say me and him were on the same page...............

To answer your questions:

1) I have no problems with christians I embrace all humans that are willing to love one another

2)I do not deny the truth, i seek it. You should too, i hate to be that one guy but may i suggest a trip to a local mosque or temple if only to see the "truth" through another set of eyes.

3)We are all being duped by evil, in one way or another, and yes most of us will never notice. But it is how you deal with the evils that makes you you.

Responses.......

1) love one another! Sweet...I am with you/partnering!

2) OT seeking with you....Question? Thoughts on the music videos? Have you seen them before?

3) Evils are arsholes, yes!

Originally posted by OldThinker
OT curious? If theres EVIL in the world, might it be LOGICAL of the inverse?

"There is no thing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." -- William Shakespeare

Morality is constructed via cultural and social conditioning. No thing or person is evil or good. Only thoughts can make actions seem so.

ok here is something that might cool the heads for some lol.


www.youtube.com...






[edit on 11-3-2010 by Buddyweiser]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Buddyweiser]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Buddyweiser]

I am not an atheist, but I will share my thoughts.

Religion, IMO, is a coping mechanism. Or rather, belief, is a coping mechanism. I have no issues with anyone else chooses to believe in, be it God, The Gods, or an overstuffed armchair- if what they believe helps them handle life.

I take issue when "your" beliefs begin to impinge on my own. If you want to believe in a zombie Jewish carpenter who is half star fairy and killed himself to allow himself permission to judge everyone else based on his beliefs- hey! Go for it! But please don't try to force me to think that your beliefs are the only "right" ones. According to everyone who believes something different, they are ALL right. Or all wrong.

Psychology has proved that we humans know right from wrong with or without a list to follow. Our moral compass is just peachy without being led by fear.

My marriage is firm and quite healthy without any religion attached. My compassion and tolerance and care for others in my species is sound. My ability to raise my children as good citizens and good HUMANS is done without going to church. I have no fear of hell or the devil, as in my view- the devil is a scapegoat, a conscious formation of fear and hate. Not a real being. I believe any "hell" is here on earth, and karmic principles apply.

So no, I don't hate Christians- heck, I used to be one. And a practicing Jew, a Lutheran, a Catholic, and a Wiccan. When it comes down to it, the essence of all of them are basically the same- and THAT is what I live my life based on. Its the specifics that I feel are wrong.

reply to post by OldThinker


Have you looked at other religious texts besides the bible? There are tons. Some WAY longer then the bible. Check some of them out. Read all of them. Then tell us what you believe in.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are a lot of books there. Have fun

I apologize all for my negative and hateful words or thoughts. Sorry from me not some god but my own marality I am old enough to know better and offer more respect to those who can. I am simply frustrated and I do hope you accept my apologies. I hope that in life as well in death you get everything promised to you. I must hope or have faith that the things My lost love beleived came through for her and with wishing these things would be true. I can can not see my self doing the same. I will remain apologetic about this instance. But not about who I am. After all if you are all correct I will die and pay for these sins. If you are wrong we will all be good people in a good place without the stress of judges.
Be Well all and happy in whatever existence you can find it is after all better then this one