Let's see what an non-believer can say about your many points of contention...

"1. People of faith initiated the creation of laws/concept of justice. (Before this was the survival of the fittest!)" The concepts of law and justice originated with the very earliest of civilizations, the laws of Hammurabi for instance. Law and justice predate Christianity by thousands of years.
2. "Laws for providing the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields. (Pentateuch)" The earliest civilizations were built on the social foundations provided by the hunter/gatherer groups that they sprang from. Those groups shared what foodstuffs they found to nourish the whole tribe. I'm pretty sure that the early civilizations did as much.
3. "Dietary laws which instituted basic hygiene at a time when only a few civilizations practiced it." As far as basic hygiene goes the Roman Empire was the most clean and hygienic civilization that the ancient world ever knew. They had public baths and operating sewer systems that channeled human waste out of their cities, thereby preventing many diseases. When Rome finally fell and the Christians took over one of the first things they did was to close the public baths because seeing naked bodies leads to lust and fornication. The sewers were allowed to fall into disrepair and decay. Lots and lots of people got sick. On a side note, Christianity is partly responsible for the Black Plaque that decimated Europe. I'll explain how if you ask me nice.
4. "Jesus' impact: His life and teachings have transformed all of world history into two periods as A.D. ("Anno Domini", Latin for "in the year of Our Lord",) and B.C. (before Christ)." This was a conceit of the Holy Roman Empire when they instituted their official calander. It signifies nothing of any actual significance.
5. "Christians were the force behind getting the vote for women." I rather think it was Women who were the force behind securing their voting rights.
6. "Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property." See answer to point #1.
7. "Basic Christianity is behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age." Please list for me all of the societies that existed before Christ that were devoid of charity towards the poor and dispossessed. It is a common human virtue.
8. "Freedom for slaves: Wilberforce's Christian beliefs motivated him to work for liberation of slaves, and to work for child labor laws." But the bible was the chief argument AGAINST abolition, since God clearly allows for the owning of slaves. In fact he endorses the subjigation of all sorts of people, especially women.
9. "Pragmatic evidence of Jesus' teachings: WORK IN REAL LIFE.
Jesus' teachings promote healthy relationships, strong marriages, honest business practices, positive parenting, racial reconciliation, cultural kindness, champion the value & dignity of all humans regardless of creed, race, sex, nationality, or orientation." You know I'm really hard-pressed to think of a single church that preaches any of these Christian values anymore. Nowadays it's all hate, hate, hate, and, as a former practicing Christian, I can honestly say that I have never met an honest Christian businessman.
10. "During the great plagues, and black death - Christians cared for the sick. Jesus said to love your enemies, love everyone regardless, and care for others." During the Black Plaque there was nobody left to care for anybody. What care that was delivered was done out of necessity. Christianity had nothing to do with it.
11. "The Red Cross was begun by a devout Calvinist Christian, Henry Dunant." And has culled a fortune on the misfortune of others ever since.
12. "The ‘Salvation Army’ and ‘Y. M. C. A.’ were begun by Christians, not the Village People! " Considering the widespread homosexual scandals that seem to plaque the churches these days, you might want to rethink the Village People reference.
13. "Divorce is less than 10% when families pray together regularly, attend church regularly, and read the bible regularly." What exactly is the source for this statistic? The best statistic concerning american marriages that i have ever seen was one that didn't just consider marriages within the first 10 years, like most of these surveys tend to do, but instead considered the entire duration of the couple from nuptuals to parting. Their finding was that an astounding 80% of all American marriages eventually end with the couples going seperate ways.
14. "When the French statesman, Alexis de Tocqueville came to this country in the early 1800's. he was startled by the volunteerism that was carried out by associations mostly founded and run by Christians, and said that America's volunteer spirit is its greatest strength.
15. Mission shelters and soup kitchens in virtually every community in this nation is sponsored for the most part by Christians to dispense Christian mercy and compassion with food and shelter to the destitute. " What do you expect from a French guy?
16. "‘Habitat for Humanity’ builds homes, ‘Prison Fellowship’ ministers to the imprisoned outcasts of society. It's ‘Project Angel Tree’ delivers hundreds of thousands of gifts and Christmas cheer to children of inmates every year. " And meanwhile non-Christians don't do squat. right? Wrong! There are unChristians manning suicide hotlines, delivering meals to elderly shut-ins, building homes for the under-privilaged and on and on and on.

Now, of course, I could recite a litany of crimes against humanity that were inspired and sanctified by your religion, but I'm pretty sure that you've heard most of it all before and can brush it off without even batting an eye. So I won't bother. Your header mentioned the Devil but, in the body of your post, he was nowhere in sight. At the end you allude to the notion that we who do not see the Church as a totally benificient thing might be dupes of EVIL. If we choose to see Christianity for what it is instead of viewing it through your oh-so-rosey-colored glasses, then is it really we who are the dupes? Sad to inform but most of the moral principles that are to be found, not only in the Torah, (you know what that is, right?) but also the New Testament, were copped from other, older religions. Even the Judgement Day that you guys love to use as fear bait for the uncommited among us was lifted almost wholehat from Zoroatrianism. Sorry.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
I don't hate Christians.

Having said that, all your points prove nothing......
[edit on 11-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

Nothing?

Really?

Nothing?

Are you using hyperbole?

Deep breath..........whoosaaaaa!!!!!

One more time, I won't bite...why do you deny the GOOD, to bouy your (percieved) position?

I am anti God, anti satan. My fiancee was on with god and kept me sane. well as sane as one might be considered in this world. I loved her and for her scope most things she loved. I lost her to a suicide. She was killed by another person trying to commit suicide. So keep your god. Enjoy every aspect of him her or it. I can't blame your god cus if i did I would be buying in to the lie. Once i did.. once i was. Now no amount of its god's will or god works in misterious ways. Bah he doesn't. he has the best job ever he does nothing and gets the props except when it s bad. when its bad it was satan.
Too easy people are people some good some bad. life is hard enough without stupidly lying in bed wondering. If god exist then he is a moron. If he doesn't then you are. Either way. People will do good til they can't or they percieve they can't. Then they will do bad. If the pope shoot someone it is good cus its gods will if Someone shoots the pope it is satans design. Bah in both cases it was cus the one shot was stupid and walked in on someone else and got shot. Good or Evil it is just semantics. Use your words. Think for yourself. most people will come to the polite or nice choice. Those who don't, Probably did not think of it well enough or like me just don't give a damn anymore

Ok if it is not obvious I am anti religion and I let my Daughter go to church my whole family is religious but to belittle anybody that thinks different is pointless. we all are here for some reason we will probably never know why.

I am a prophet. I sense that this thread will become one of the popular topics of the forum and may accumulate many stars and flags. I also sense that there will be nothing but ranting and raving about how stupid or glorious Christianity is. You'll even have some posters say "other religions have helped shape the world in the same way Christianity has".

Everyone will go down the same path and argue the same points and by the time this thread becomes forgotten, nothing will be solved and there'll still be divided opinions on the matter.

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
I'm pretty lazy right now....

IntastellaBurst, when you are ready, bring it! OK?

I think you could offer some insight....

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
OT curious? If theres EVIL in the world, might it be LOGICAL of the inverse?

"There is no thing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." -- William Shakespeare

Morality is constructed via cultural and social conditioning. No thing or person is evil or good. Only thoughts can make actions seem so.

I am not an atheist, but I will share my thoughts.

Religion, IMO, is a coping mechanism. Or rather, belief, is a coping mechanism. I have no issues with anyone else chooses to believe in, be it God, The Gods, or an overstuffed armchair- if what they believe helps them handle life.

I take issue when "your" beliefs begin to impinge on my own. If you want to believe in a zombie Jewish carpenter who is half star fairy and killed himself to allow himself permission to judge everyone else based on his beliefs- hey! Go for it! But please don't try to force me to think that your beliefs are the only "right" ones. According to everyone who believes something different, they are ALL right. Or all wrong.

Psychology has proved that we humans know right from wrong with or without a list to follow. Our moral compass is just peachy without being led by fear.

My marriage is firm and quite healthy without any religion attached. My compassion and tolerance and care for others in my species is sound. My ability to raise my children as good citizens and good HUMANS is done without going to church. I have no fear of hell or the devil, as in my view- the devil is a scapegoat, a conscious formation of fear and hate. Not a real being. I believe any "hell" is here on earth, and karmic principles apply.

So no, I don't hate Christians- heck, I used to be one. And a practicing Jew, a Lutheran, a Catholic, and a Wiccan. When it comes down to it, the essence of all of them are basically the same- and THAT is what I live my life based on. Its the specifics that I feel are wrong.

I apologize all for my negative and hateful words or thoughts. Sorry from me not some god but my own marality I am old enough to know better and offer more respect to those who can. I am simply frustrated and I do hope you accept my apologies. I hope that in life as well in death you get everything promised to you. I must hope or have faith that the things My lost love beleived came through for her and with wishing these things would be true. I can can not see my self doing the same. I will remain apologetic about this instance. But not about who I am. After all if you are all correct I will die and pay for these sins. If you are wrong we will all be good people in a good place without the stress of judges.
Be Well all and happy in whatever existence you can find it is after all better then this one