Um, I don’t have a problem with Christians.

Some of the greatest people on this earth were/are Christians.

I think it’s nice that people of all different faiths are passionate about their beliefs.

I prefer it over the indifference or pessimistic attitude some give off, who believe in nothing.

I think people of faith do a lot of good unless they’re trying to control the behavior of others because they think their belief of what constitutes the correct lifestyle to live is a fact. When they do that they’re wasting my time, and their own.

OP this goes either way why do we not believe and why do you believe so here comes the dead horse so you can beat it some more.

I think it's all very simple. Basically, I have no problems with Christians. I do not doubt they do great things for society; my mother worked as a nurse for the Salvation Army so I've seen it in action.

As long as it looks like this;

I'm here -------------------------------------------------------> Christian folks who feel the need to convince people of the 'truth'

all the way over there, I'm good.

Originally posted by Buddyweiser
OP this goes either way why do we not believe and why do you believe so here comes the dead horse so you can beat it some more.

BW,

Does 'Miller Lite' work too? I'm hoping

OT

PS: Seriously, this my be an old argument for you, but may be new for some?

Thoughts on the youtube links?

I am able to sympathise with the radical atheist position. At first I was attracted to it primarily because I perceived it as sharing my view of religion as pure stupidity and denial of death. For an intelligent person it is easy to form this view especially in western countries where religion has become a way of conveniently ignoring reality, replacing it with a simplistic, moral, black and white world where following some basic rules assures immortality and eternal happiness. Radical atheists see this part of religion, but unfortunately overlook the more complex and beautiful aspects.

Soon after this I read the Bhagavad-Gita, an important Hindu scripture, and was able to see that the ideas communicated were very similar to the philosophy of existentialism. It promoted a transcendental worldview where the individual overcame their ego in favour of finding their place within a cosmic order. This gave them purpose and hope where before had been meaninglessness. With this in mind I noticed that other religious scriptures seemed to contain similar ideas, although they were more obscured in some than others.

At first the individual was isolated within themselves; their lives only had subjective meaning, revolving mostly around their ego and emotions. When they began to understand their relative insignificance they had an inner crisis. Eventually they realised that the only way to overcome this existential void was to align themselves with an order that was higher than their own existence. By doing this they took part in the eternal and transcendent cosmic cycle, contributing to the rhythm of nature and satisfying their existential need by breaking down the boundary between the individual and transcendent reality. In this way they became immortal because they were no longer just an individual, but part of something which could not be effected by physical events.

The physical application of this transcendent ideal is culture. Through culture each individual is given a place that reflects their character. This opposes the modern doctrine of individualism which teaches that inequality is immoral and that each individual should strive only to satisfy their most basic physical desires. Confining each individual to a life of meaningless consumerism and impersonal, boring work not only fails to satisfy the individual existentially, it creates an unstable society that can be destroyed by even the slightest of challenges, because it has no binding element allowing it to act with unity in a time of crisis. Religion allows for a society to partake in transcendence and in doing so unifies it culturally. Modern Christianity seeks only to push the individual further in to the world of subjective self; this is utterly contrary to the original purpose of religion.

This new found meaning in religion did not blind me to the fact that many modern manifestations of Christianity are a sham; but I realised that the problem lay not in the religion itself, but in the fact that it had become subject to the will of the crowd. Much like modern politics, modern religion caters for the lowest common denominator and nothing else. That is why the modern brands of Christianity preached are often so simplistic and also self-orientated, because the people who now define it only want what is easy and pleasing at the time.

The radical atheist movement, led by those such as Richard Dawkins, is yet another modern movement that becomes obsessed with a problem that in itself is not huge, and loses its holistic focus. Much like the neo-Nazis with their fear of non-whites, and Christians with their fear of death, the radical atheists are essentially a negative movement which only tries to eliminate a problem, without offering a genuine solution. These negative movements are doomed to failure because they create an entire ideology out of one aspect of reality, and in doing so lose focus on everything else.

The solution is to perceive the cause of these problems and more importantly, how the process that brings them about can be replaced by a more natural one. Only a positive, holistic view that unites all aspects of society, including religion can stem the tide of modern decadence, or rampant and accelerating individualism. Rather than destroy religion we should concentrate on restoring its inner meaning, that of transcendence; individuals aligning themselves with a higher order of things.

Although i disagree with the very concept of an organized religion, and think many Christians (as with all religions) take some messages too seriously, gays are evil, sin and go to hell, and all that, I find it hard to knock ANYTHING that can make people be a better them. If someone wants to believe that a magic sky fairy will smite them if they don't love thy neighbor then I'm all for it. As long as they don't force me to worship their sky fairy whats the harm right? Why can't we just all get along

I don't hate Christians.

Having said that, all your points prove nothing...and certainly not the existence of God, and it also doesn't validate the religion as being the "right one" compared to others.

The church largely used Christianity as a way to control the masses, so it's only logical that it had a great influence on our Western society. Good or evil is a matter of perspective btw. There's plenty of questionable parts in the bible that contradict your points by the way. According to the bible it's ok to hit your slave for example, as long as he doesn't die.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

What I'm trying to say is, I only despise (that's an understatement) the people who take the bible literally. I hate them because they often hurt other people, or look down on them as if they are the only "good" ones following the only right path. That's a very self-righteous way of looking at the world, especially considering that they have no scientific proof of God, or that their religion is the "right one".

[edit on 11-3-2010 by MrXYZ]

There is great good and great evil in christianity in my opinion. It depends on the person practising it. I don't believe in organized religion except organizing to help people. For almost everything you listed there is another thing that is terrible done by self-declared christians. The only difference between when religious groups do bad things and secular groups do bad things is that the religious leaders can pass off anything horrible as being done by their ready-made scapegoat-the devil. I know you will ask me what things the church has done that are terrible or why I just can't accept your religion so here are a few:
1. Corrupted the original christian gospels by only allowing their priests to read them
2. Selling indulgences which have no basis in the bible
3. Using christianity to take over Europe, turning the church into a political power
4. Sending 'believers' to kill muslims in the crusades
5. THE INQUISITION
6. The Spanish soldiers who tortured and killed natives who refused to convert to christianity
7. All of the recent child molestation in the catholic church
8. The christian military groups that burned entire towns and killed people during the middle ages if they went against the faith
9. The repression of human advancement/ any pursuit of knowledge during the middle ages
10. The fact that the bible condones slavery and the killing of slaves... (Exodus 21:20-21)

Originally posted by therewillberevolt
Although i disagree with the very concept of an organized religion.....

So you agree with TLJC, he, too, hated organized religion...

btw, Sweet avatar there friend

OT

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
.....Rather than destroy religion we should concentrate on restoring its inner meaning, that of transcendence; individuals aligning themselves with a higher order of things.

CC, another very thoughtful post! Thx for stopping by

I agree its about the heart, the inner....

Why are we soooooooo external focused?

OT

I'm pretty lazy right now, so I'll just paste something I left on another thread, I think it applies here as well.


People are willing to tell themselves anything to justify their beleif's.

It is blind devotion to a dead religion, .... When you cease to ask questions and learn for yourself you create a sort of spiritual death, becoming a slave to your belief system.

Face it, .... The Masses are always behind on the spiritual front, ... they kill the Christ and then worship him..... and even now if he were to return, they would probably have him imprisoned and call him a false idol.

The bible was the truth, as it stood over 2000 years ago, .... it was spirituality as man could understand it at the time, ..... and it grows with ones ability to comprehend it.

yet it is not stagnant, .... you have taken a photo in time and declared it to be the ultimate truth..... it is your own faith which blinds you.

The irony lies in .. by Jesus trying to awaken the people of his time, his teachings were misread to lead astray the followers of today.

You will not find the truth in a church, ... or in a book of dead teachings, ..... it is a living thing, inside each and every one of us.

We could instead of help religion we could be done with it but then again we get back to the same argument it will never end but i hope Miller Lite does lol.