Brown-eyed children are idiots and worthless

This experiment/exercise was redone on television here in Britain recently with Jane Elliot herself, and using a group of adults rather than children. Also, the take was on blue eyes being worthless and stupid, and the experiment didn't have the turn around that some previous runs appear to have had where the ostracised group become eventually 'dominant'.

My politics are left-wing - and probably enough for me to be hung in the town square in a lot of American towns - but I found the whole thing a little unsavoury, to be honest. Whilst I appreciate the merits of what she was trying to do - racism is abhorrent - I found Elliot to be an incredibly unpleasant and arrogant woman whose own attitude and behaviour really undermined what she was hoping to achieve.

The experiment more or less broke down in the television version as many of the adults weren't as subservient and unquestioning of what was going on. Much of this was pinned down as some kind of cognitive dissonance where the adults were refusing to confront any inner racism by pre-empting what was going on. However, the my interpretation of the events, as well as my friends and colleagues and, more importantly, some of the 'test subjects', was that it was Elliott's demeanour that was the real stumbling block.

Also, the eye colour analogy is flawed as it's not something that necessarily transposes that well across every demographic. It might have made sense in predominantly white American states in the 1960s where amongst white people eye colour would have seen as a radically arbitrary marker of difference - even though discrimination of skin colour itself is fairly arbitrary, and to me, pretty weird and bizarre. However, in last years British version, with a mixed race demographic, this division just seemed less clear cut and immediate. It wasn't helped by the fact that even a black chap (or perhaps mixed-race, I can't quite remember), actually questioned as to whether this was still actually relevant, or rather her approach to racism was still relevant.

There's quite a lot of racism where I live. Unfortunately for the likes of Elliott who think that 'whites invented racism' - which was something she alluded to in the programme - it's not all white on black racism. In fact, it flows each way across each demographic: there's Asian/India on white, black on Asian/Indian, Asian/Indian on black as well as white on everyone else. The idea of literally forcing people to experience what it's like to have 'the shoe on the other foot' (or in this case, eye colour in the other head) is a nonsense now in many communities.

There was a famous experiment in 1967 in Palo Alto called the Wave that was aimed at teaching kids (high school students this time) on how fascism's arise.

I first heard about in 1980 from the Next Whole Earth Catalog that had an extensive article about it.

Here is a link to a website about it.

www.thewave.tk...

From the article:

In 1967, at the Cubberley High School in Palo Alto, California, World History teacher Ron Jones was asked about the Holocaust by a student. "Could it happen here?". According to the press release accompanying the latest retelling of the events that followed, "Jones came up with an unusual answer. He decided to have a two week experiment in dictatorship. His idea was to explain fascism to his class through a game, nothing more. He never intended what resulted, where his class would be turned into a Fascist environment. Where students gave up their freedom for the prospect of being superior to their neighbors.
Monday morning he straightened the classroom, dimmed the lights and played Wagnerian music. The word "discipline" was written on the blackboard. He then had the students sit up straight in their chairs with hands placed flat across the small of their backs. In this setting, he devoted the remainder of the class to the topic of discipline.

By the second day, Jones developed a special greeting, a wave. It became known as the Third Wave, and if students saw each other outside class, they were to use it. In his lectures, Jones went from "discipline," to "strength through community," and then to "strength through action."

By midweek, his "experiment" expanded to sixty students, and by the week's end, more than two hundred were participating. Other teachers and the school's principal stood by and watched.

The first sign of concern came when some students had taken it uponthemselves to report others who did not conform. After just four days, things got out of hand. Jones feared for the safety of a few students who refused to participate. To his dismay and alarm, the experiment was so blindly embraced by the students, that he cut the project short. "Initially I just wanted to show my students how powerful the pressure to belong can be, but the exercise got out of control. A momentum began to build that I couldn't slow, or even deter. I became frightened by the day-to-day happenings in class, and was forced to call it off," recalls Jones.

[edit on 3/11/2010 by iMacFanatic]

my psychology prof. went over this experiment in extensive detail last class. Pretty amazing how well it worked. Heres another one she does with college students. Its hard to find on the internet, but apparently it worked just as well. Except some students stormed out and were outraged.

mabe OP is in my class. I wouldnt be surprised.




[edit on 11-3-2010 by SPACEYstranger]

this lady is my hero. I seriously started crying watching this. It is amazing how impressionable children are. I cannot believe that some of you are saying this was a horrible idea. This experiment, (though painful) taught these children lifelong lessons about racism. Life lessons aren't meant to be easy. I can understand that it was hard to watch the children feel degraded and like they were worth nothing, however now they understand what it is like for people that deal with racism on a daily basis. They endured this for ONE day. Some people deal with this throughout their lifetime. This was an EXCELLENT idea.

Also, it is true if teachers tried this today, hell would be raised and I think that it is just pathetic. This woman is a genius. I could only hope that when my children start school they have teachers like her.

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
this lady is my hero. I seriously started crying watching this. It is amazing how impressionable children are. I cannot believe that some of you are saying this was a horrible idea. This experiment, (though painful) taught these children lifelong lessons about racism. Life lessons aren't meant to be easy. I can understand that it was hard to watch the children feel degraded and like they were worth nothing, however now they understand what it is like for people that deal with racism on a daily basis. They endured this for ONE day. Some people deal with this throughout their lifetime. This was an EXCELLENT idea.

Also, it is true if teachers tried this today, hell would be raised and I think that it is just pathetic. This woman is a genius. I could only hope that when my children start school they have teachers like her.

Combating racism is a great idea. Elliott's ideas aren't. There's a big difference. The whole thing is flawed. Elliott supports the idea that only white people can be racist and that, somehow, whites invented racism and basically stole all their ideas and technologies - even the English language - from non-white cultures. In 1960s America, or rather certain places in 1960s America, I can see how this made some sense. Now? Not so much.

Anyone who thinks that whites are somehow excluded from experiencing racism first hand is either delusional or has led a very closeted life.

There is a similar thread now about a recent experiment done. The teacher separated the pupils and said some were going away. This was done to show what was done during the Holocaust:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It didn't go over very well.

Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
I think this is insult to me since i have those eyes.

Did you watch the video's? Or did you just read the title of the thread and jump to conclusions?

Also to the poster who stated that this affected how the kids acted later on in life. Yeah, it did. Watch the videos! They changed how they approached people of minorities. They tried to change the way they associated negative comments with minorities. So for the blanket statement of 'it ruined them in their adult life' is a bit off.

It made them better people. It sent a message home. And it wasn't after 6 weeks that the roles were reversed. It was after one day. The program didn't last more than a few days. Nowhere near 6 weeks.

After it was all said and done she explained to them clearly what took place and why. Kids are sponges. They understood this. AND, it didn't just take place in the 80's. Well, not true. This actual lesson took place in the 60's but the teacher was allowed to do this every year since for the 3rd grade class well into the 80's.

I think that the most important lesson to learn from this isn't that racism was shown in a very powerful learning lesson. I think that the most important thing to take from this is that people in leadership positions UNDERSTAND how easily kids can be manipulated into FOLLOWING a lead. Thus government run education or 'public schooling'. If the schools don't teach what the government wants then they don't get money. So tell me where the danger truly lay in this?

Great lesson for these kids.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I know exactly what you are saying. The problem with your argument is that you said it yourself. This took place in the 60's and even into the 80's. I agree that her idealogy was flawed but it was the easiest way to display racism in an ALL WHITE community. I lived in communities when I was younger where many of the kids up to 17 and even older in some cases had NEVER seen a person of color.

So how would you try to differentiate between an all white class?

It was the best way and this 'experiment', though flawed, was good for that situation.

I would have been screwed though because I have green eyes. LOL

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I fully understand that white people are not the only ones who are racist. I have actually been a victim of racism (laugh all you want). I worked at a restaurant and my manager got hired at a casino steak house as the general manager. She asked me and two of my other co-workers if we would like to work for her. (All 3 of us are white females) Knowing it would be A LOT more money we took her offer and left the restaurant we have worked at for years. Long story short, 99% of the workers at this steakhouse were African American. And I will say this...they were NOT happy that this new white manager and three white girls came there. They tried to scare us out of there with intimidation and they were seriously just rude to us and treated us like we didn't belong there. And I mean ALL of them. Eventually they started to realize that we weren't going to put up with their sh*t. I think they realized this and they started respecting us as equals. We actually became friends with the other servers and sometimes hung out. After a year the restaurant was bought out and we all had to reapply for the positions. The new GM was African American. Lets just say that me and my two co-workers didn't get re-hired. All of the other girls did.

So I really do see where you are coming from

S&F!

Great post, the videos are great.

I thought it was great idea, judging from the adults those kids became, the message got through.
An exchange of students in areas where students are all white or all black etc etc might be a good idea in combination with such an experiment.
A lesson is one thing, experience another. See if little billy remembers what he learnt from the lesson when he meets a black kid. *
* Any ethnic origin or appearance.
Infact, In Australia, I think this would be an excellent idea where aboriginal kids suffer discimination. Send the kids to an indiginous community school for a day.

Any lesson that teaches children early on not to disciminate on the basis of appearance is a positive one I think.
The 'holocaust' experiment was probably going too far with kids of that age I think though.

If you were a teacher, what experiment could you come up with to teach children not to discriminate against disabled or down syndrome?
Any ideas?

[edit on 11-3-2010 by wayaboveitall]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Just want to say that I think the fact that she has attempted to minimize racism shows character in Elliot and a true desire to help.

you on the other had speak low about Elliot, expressing your negative opinons on someone who has done something to help, whilst you probably have done nothing to minimize racism. How easy it easy to sit back and express negative opinions about someone who had thier heart in the right place. Negativity such as yours, scares me more then death itself.

Peace!

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I would like for you to keep in mind that she was trying to combat racism while it was going on in the US... you know the whole segregation / intergration thing that a good bunch of people were against ... causing the US to utilize the army in some situations to enforce... Just decided to mention this for you since it seems that you are only aware of the situation in the UK and may not have noticed the timeline.

Now, moving on to the experiment with the adults, her General idea of teaching people how to empathize with each other via going through the same thing probably wouldn't work well on adults who aren't as impressionable as children. Adults are set in their ways as development of the frontal lobes have been achieved at about the age of 24. Her being a teacher as well would cause her to be used to dealing with children. I would have to guess (based on mere speculation since I havent seen the special with the adults) that some of the adults claim it was her demeanor that prevented the experiment from being successful with them failed to realize what I stated before and didn't like being treated as children. This is from a psychological view again. If you would point to me maybe a video of the special or at least the name so I may research it I could give you more accurate insight if you would like.

With all of that said, she very well may know about the predjudices people go through today ... probably not as she is rather elderly and some people get trapped in a 'timewarp' if you would.

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I fully understand that white people are not the only ones who are racist. I have actually been a victim of racism (laugh all you want). I worked at a restaurant and my manager got hired at a casino steak house as the general manager. She asked me and two of my other co-workers if we would like to work for her. (All 3 of us are white females) Knowing it would be A LOT more money we took her offer and left the restaurant we have worked at for years. Long story short, 99% of the workers at this steakhouse were African American. And I will say this...they were NOT happy that this new white manager and three white girls came there. They tried to scare us out of there with intimidation and they were seriously just rude to us and treated us like we didn't belong there. And I mean ALL of them. Eventually they started to realize that we weren't going to put up with their sh*t. I think they realized this and they started respecting us as equals. We actually became friends with the other servers and sometimes hung out. After a year the restaurant was bought out and we all had to reapply for the positions. The new GM was African American. Lets just say that me and my two co-workers didn't get re-hired. All of the other girls did.

So I really do see where you are coming from

I am sorry you had to experience that, as I cannot send u2u's yet (I tried to send you this message via u2u), I will link you to something that will hopefully help understand what you have experienced
(maybe... since I havent seen what you went through first-hand)

dismantling the anger and bitterness from racism is a very involving emotional process

So the people you were eventually able to befriend had to overcome that I believe. The people who didn't even bother to try, in my humble opinion, are no better than the 'racist' they believe every non-black person to be.

The author of that blog post pretty much accuratley explained what EVERY group of people has to go through when confronted with microaggressions from other groups of people, its very eye opening.

If you have any questions or anybody wants to talk more about it ... um maybe we can find a way to communicate and learn from each other. ( I can't send u2u's yet ...)
I am not claiming to be an expert, I am just a student who enjoy's psychoanalyzing people.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I think you're making up what you want to see, rather than what you're actually seeing. Nothing you say correlates with what's actually going on in this experiment. Rather, you seem to be trying to derail into a tangent.

Originally posted by dariousg
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I know exactly what you are saying. The problem with your argument is that you said it yourself. This took place in the 60's and even into the 80's.

No, I'm not wrong. As I said in an earlier post, I'm basing my posts on the fact that Elliott actually did this as programme on British television last year. Not the 1960s. Not the 1980s - last year. Also, she also started doing this with adults and not children. The focus of the programme was adults and throughout it showed clips of the experiment being run on other adults and young adults/older teenagers.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I think you're making up what you want to see, rather than what you're actually seeing. Nothing you say correlates with what's actually going on in this experiment. Rather, you seem to be trying to derail into a tangent.

Again, read my posts. I'm talking about the fact that Elliott actually performed this with adults on British television late last year (2009) and I'm commenting on things that things that were actually raised on that programme or by reviews and critiques of that programme. I'm not basing my comments on the clips in the OP but a continuation of the same experiment.

So how am I derailing the thread?

What about reverse racism, where the whites are haressed for being white.

Oh no we cannot talk about that, oh no.

Originally posted by Armour For Victor
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Just want to say that I think the fact that she has attempted to minimize racism shows character in Elliot and a true desire to help.

you on the other had speak low about Elliot, expressing your negative opinons on someone who has done something to help, whilst you probably have done nothing to minimize racism. How easy it easy to sit back and express negative opinions about someone who had thier heart in the right place. Negativity such as yours, scares me more then death itself.

Peace!

Really? Well, I was a member of the Anti-Nazi League for many years and also a member of an Anti-Facist Action group. I've probably had more up-front and 'in your face' dealings with (violent) members of right wing white supremacists than you can imagine.

And I did all that without the privilege of having school backing or being in a place where the 'subjects' couldn't actually fight back.

So, what is it you're actually asking me here?

wow.. very powerful film. This reminds me of the Up series, which is really great. A guy studies a group of 10+ kids and every 7 years he interviews them about their dreams, what they are up to, etc. Very cool