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Why is protectionism demonized? Are you a Protectionist?

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posted on Mar, 9 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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Protectionism is the economic policy of restraining trade between states, through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to discourage imports, and prevent foreign take-over of native markets and companies. This policy is closely aligned with anti-globalization, and contrasts with free trade, where government barriers to trade and movement of capital are kept to a minimum. The term is mostly used in the context of economics, where protectionism refers to policies or doctrines which protect businesses and workers within a country by restricting or regulating trade with foreign nations.


en.wikipedia.org...

The term is mostly used in the context of economics, where protectionism refers to policies or doctrines which protect businesses and workers within a country by restricting or regulating trade with foreign nations.

Protectionist: an advocate of government economic protection for domestic producers through restrictions on foreign competitors

www.merriam-webster.com...

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Could someone tell me what is WRONG with Protectionism? What exactly is WRONG with protecting American wages? What exactly is WRONG with protecting our small businesses? What exactly is WRONG with protecting our manufacturing base? (which is all but gone BECAUSE of our trade policies) What exactly is WRONG with trying to correct our overly unbalanced import/export ratio?

ANYONE?

I'm willing to bet that most Americans are protectionists. I'm willing to bet that most Americans want to keep their standard of living. I'm willing to bet that most Americans want to protect their own jobs, wages, and benefits.

TARIFFS on imports is the ONLY THING that protects American workers wages. Tariffs keep prices high on imports...charging a tax on those companies that import products through slave labor...this offsets the savings they get by outsourcing jobs out of our country.

What would an increase in Tariffs do to help our country?

1. Tax Revenue.
2. Make it impossible for Transnational corporations to get by without paying taxes. If they want to sell...they have to pay...PERIOD.
3. Tariffs are used to increase the sale prices of items sold here. Why? So that American businesses can compete....so those businesses can continue to give us decent wages and benefits.
4. It protects our individuality and sovereignty as a nation.
5. It protects American manufacturing.
6. It protects our economy!
7. Yes, it will inflate prices on most everything....but inflation is coming regardless at this point. If we are going to actually tackle our problem with deficits, job losses, etc....THEN IT HAS TO BE DONE.

8. It makes people more prone to BUY AMERICAN.

We have an average of a 2-3 percent tariff on imports right now. China, for example, has a 20 percent tariff on it's imports. Our trade policies ARE DESTROYING THE MIDDLE CLASS!!! Our trade policies are DESTROYING YOUR STANDARD OF LIVING.

I've been called/named many thing son this website...Conservative, Libertarian, Progressive, Liberal, Socialist, etc.

At heart though, I'm really none of these things.

I'M A PROTECTIONIST. I stand for American workers and businesses.

Are you a protectionist?

Do you stand by the American workforce?




posted on Mar, 9 2010 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Honestly, In My Not So Humble Opinion....

The US will not be able to compete with extremely cheap products from China with their artificial exchange rate. Also most of the Jobs exodus to foreign countries are in search for the ever increasing bottom line. The Execs could give a RATS furry Butt about the American worker.

Are you a protectionist?

Not Really.
I would be happy with an even playing field.

Back to China our biggest unbalanced trade partner.
China Will Resume Exchange-Rate Reform After Crisis, Wu Says

March 8 (Bloomberg) -- China will allow a more market-based exchange rate after the global economy recovers from the financial crisis, former central bank governor Wu Xiaoling said.

It’s a “timing” issue for China to normalize its exchange-rate system, Wu, vice chairman of the Financial and Economic Affairs Committee of the National People’s Congress, told reporters today in Beijing.

“The government will consider a wider range of reforms once the global economy stabilizes after the crisis,” she said. “We focus on current problems when dealing with the crisis.”

China has kept the yuan little changed around 6.83 per dollar since July 2008 as consumers in the U.S. and Europe slashed spending amid the financial crisis. A stronger exchange rate would help curb inflation by reducing import prices and at the same time push up the cost of exports.

Wu said the exchange rate is based on market supply and demand and also labor and resource prices in different countries. “Once the price of labor and many types of resources in China can rise to match international levels, the yuan rate will not necessarily be undervalued then,” she said.



posted on Mar, 9 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 





The US will not be able to compete with extremely cheap products from China with their artificial exchange rate. Also most of the Jobs exodus to foreign countries are in search for the ever increasing bottom line. The Execs could give a RATS furry Butt about the American worker.


True. The consequences of not increasing our tariffs is far worse IMO.

For US companies to be competitive in our OWN MARKETS without increased tariffs, they will have to continue to lower wages to find some kind of balance in our import/exports.....which means a lower standard of living for all....the middle class will be gone...but the rich will get richer.

People want drastic cuts to government spending and tax cuts for the wealthy...but that WILL NOT fix our economy.

I just don't understand how protectionism has become a "bad" word. Almost everyone in Washington...except for Paul, Kucinich, and Sanders...speaks strongly against protectionism.

Check out this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It shows how much of our government's revenue used to come from tariffs..and how it has completely disintegrated.

We are the largest consumer and debtor nation in the world. This HAS to change.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by David9176]



posted on Mar, 9 2010 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Well at least our "TIRE" industry is safe or is it?


U.S. trade leader: Preaching to China not in American interest

Indeed, when asked to cite accomplishments in the trade arena during the first year of the Obama administration, Kirk rattled off a list of enforcement actions.

Obama's move to slap a 35% tariff on imports of cheap Chinese-made tires was his most controversial trade act, decried by some as an alarmingly protectionist favor to his labor union supporters. It wasn't an isolated case. China had earlier been forced to cut import duties on auto parts after the World Trade Organization rejected its appeal of an earlier ruling. The U.S. government also slapped a punitive 31% tariff on Chinese steel pipes.



The following is from a thread I wrote last summer.
China and US head for trade war

China could face censure at the World Trade Organisation after the US and Europe lodged a joint complaint over its restrictions on raw materials exports

Europe and the United States announced last night co-ordinated action against China for busting World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules by restricting exports of essential raw materials, raising fears of a damaging east-west trade war in the depths of the global recession.

Ron Kirk, the US trade representative, accused Beijing of putting a "giant thumb on the scale" by restricting exports of commodities including silicon, coke and zinc, to give Chinese manufacturers an unfair advantage over their international rivals. "It's our job to make sure we remove that thumb from that scale," he said in Washington. "Today's action is proof of our commitment to level the playing field in this area."


Well who hasn't seen this coming? Here we go...
Contrary to "Pop Culture " Beliefs the US and EU are still the big dogs. This can get ugly real fast. With the shrinking of the US manufacturing sector from the glory days of over 30% of world production now down to 21% and falling. It is becoming very apparent the US needs to start Manufacturing again. But how can one compete on an uneven playing field?



Some feel our real problem is not under manufacturing but over consumption our industries cannot keep up with our own demands. All too often too many statements are made that only increase the confusion of the reality of the situation. Yes the US has lost manufacturing jobs. Yes our industry is on the decline. No arguments there. But there are many ways to judge the situation. I even wrote a thread on topic Here I understand all too well. No need to preach to the choir.

Most of what the US does produce are higher end higher technology that the average consumer would not see or is even aware of they would not find them on the shelves at Walmart. Heres the kicker they are not all defense related either.
Source

World’s largest manufacturer
Published 6/23/09
Filed under: Miscellaneous, Politics

What country is the world’s largest manufacturer by a huge margin? If you have a kid, you would think it must be China — I don’t know the last time I saw I toy (or anything else, really) that wasn’t made there.

Wrong.

Accounting for more than 20% of the world’s total manufacturing output is the United States.

Japan is a distant second at just over 13%. Then China (12%), and Germany (8.2%). Then, well, everyone else. (Data come from the Dept. of Labor and the United Nations.)


Revenue Leaders by Nation
Country/Province Number of Companies Revenue Total (Millions) Average Company Revenue Growth (%)*
United States 290 $5,386,377 10.50
Japan 233 $3,624,074 6.74
Germany 40 $1,269,963 11.97
France 48 $1,103,959 4.23
United Kingdom 36 $882,521 17.30
China 36 $606,892 19.74
Netherlands 13 $599,939 7.97
South Korea 37 $574,252 27.46
Switzerland 21 $364,031 2.90
Italy 15 $356,603 5.75
Russia 8 $338,870 32.37
Canada 27 $335,500 24.20
Taiwan 29 $328,564 5.47
India 12 $206,903 48.20
Finland 16 $189,505 0.56
Brazil 10 $184,523 23.04
Sweden 14 $161,619 6.29
Spain 6 $149,468 7.73
Luxembourg 3 $145,569 14.33
Australia 12 $143,580 38.52


Related thread.
America Has Lost its Influence and Prestige Around the World.



[edit on 9-3-2010 by SLAYER69]



posted on Mar, 9 2010 @ 10:16 PM
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Lets see, prootectionism raises prices artificially. it protects ineeficient business from real competition. it inhibits natural cause and effect of the marketplace.

this is really should not be a question of politics (which it has become today), but a question of economics. i think that if more people had a understanding of basic economic principles we would all be better off



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by SLAYER69
 





The US will not be able to compete with extremely cheap products from China with their artificial exchange rate. Also most of the Jobs exodus to foreign countries are in search for the ever increasing bottom line. The Execs could give a RATS furry Butt about the American worker.


...but the rich will get richer.



And there is something wrong with that?

We all know this will create more opportunities and that their money will see its way to us via jobs


OK back to reality, Germany (modern) is a great example of protectionism, conservatism and "progressivism" in regards to economics and trade.

I am not sure why certain people keep "asking" us to overtly put the corporation and the machines of power as our #1 concern with line two of this post... At the end of the day does it not ALWAYS seem to boil down to line two? Why does freedom hinge on protecting the right to destroy our economy with concerns of your nature?

If you distill, it all down, the impression I get is nothing can be done because any action indicates big government, which I am told creates bigger business by taxing them, while making them have to lay off people which makes them more powerful, because "we" demand a fix, which would only make the problem worse, because corporations would become more powerful by restricting their anti American practices.

Limiting or taxing is punishing people for being successful and having stricter regulations on corporations is what fascists do. So we have to let the corporations do what they want or else we are fascist socialists who let the corporations do what they want. The only way to not fall into the fascist trap is to let corporations influence all governmental monetary policy, so basically to fight fascism we have to let corporations do what they want ='s FREEDOM!!!


Anyhow that what I've heard, make sense


I need a diagram, I must be retard



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by Ozzy Mandias
Lets see, prootectionism raises prices artificially.


In response to artificially low wages of workers in other nations.


it protects ineeficient business from real competition.


No, it protects local businesses (and workers) from non-local businesses who offer sub standard wages for their workers.


it inhibits natural cause and effect of the marketplace.


Yes... that is the ENTIRE POINT of protectionism.

If you trade with a nation that pays its workers less than you do, the most economic choice for any local business would be to pack up and leave your nation to take advantage of of the lower wages in those nations.

This would leave your own workers impoverished for lack of jobs.

Protective tariffs are designed to *PROTECT* your economy from being undercut by business practices that would DESTROY your economy.


-Edrick



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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Protectionism is the way to go to protect each nation’s worker jobs. There can be a level field, be it for the American or China worker. There are enough resources on Earth to go round for everyone.

The true ‘free’ market system is based upon supply and demand dynamics and not ‘the free greedy hands of the Corporation’s elite’ as believed by the globalists. What’s done is done, and now it is to pick up the pieces.

1. ) In order to compete on labor, China will win hands down. They have plenty of cheap slave labor to supply that the Corporations drool over, to hell with local social responsibilities. Thus, it would be stupid to compete based on labor, for the wages will never be match.

The solution lays in increase productivity, and that can happen if we apply technology into the work line processes. Example, if it takes 10 cheap china workers to produce a laptop, US must be capable of using only 3 workers to produce that laptop to earn 10 cheap labor’s wage.

And that can happen if we use automated processes to increase our productivity, with upgrading of our much more educated mentality to handle such processors.

That china worker will fail, for he is far less educated than the American worker, not that he is stupid, for he too is an intelligent human being. It is just that the CCP dictators do not offer better education opportunities to them. But America does, and it will be America that can win in such a fight, the creation of such a field.

There is no need to re-create or re-tool industries, as it would be too time consuming as there is a greater need today for employment and better wages. Current industries have the necessary infrastructure to make that leap today. Only thing is, will they, even when the govt are offering up taxpayers funds to assist?


2. ) With machines increasing productivity and lowering labour requirements, more american biz can be creating to meet the world's needs. And with more biz being created, those excess labour laid off will be employed by such biz enterprises, lowering the unemployment data.

Tech is the way to go today and out of this crisis. It is the info and knowledge age, and that can only happen in a democracy US is, where no voice is stifled, no questions unanswered or brushed off, to improve, and fully social funded schools to bring up the next generations of intelligent and loyal human capital to society.

This is something tyrannical China and other corrupt states in the world would fail miserably. Talk to your family, relatives, friends and elected representives about it, discuss about it and then act on the best solutions. America is only a name. Its the society that matters, each and everyone of us and no one must be left behind.

[edit on 10-3-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 08:27 AM
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The problem with protectionism is that it clashes with the doctrine of laissez-faire capitalism. The USA or any other country cannot morally have it both ways. It is either laissez-faire capitalism and the joys of free markets or it is a protectionist stance.

The good thing about manufacturing is that they tend to be mass-employers. The kind of jobs on offer are for the low skilled predominantly. Not everyone is intellectually suited to the professions.

The thorny question is one of wages… Is it possible to drop US wages to those of say China or Taiwan? Probably not so there is the conundrum.

Either way it is all a big fat mess.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 


If you're serious about learning how tariffs work in an economy, you need to listen to John Sophocleus of the Mises Institute lecture on the subject.

mises.org...

Tariffs serve as a transfer of wealth from domestic consumers to domestic producers.

For more audio and video on the effects of tariffs, look here:

mises.org...


Basically protectionism hurts the common man more than it helps him, as do all State interventions in the market.

The only thing that helps the poor people is when government stays out of the market and monetary system entirely.






[edit on 10-3-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 


He, he, just like the "evil word socialism".



I believe that is certain things we citizens in a nation should be protecting for our children's future.

But is not lie that in America propaganda does a great thing when paid by multibillion dollar companies American and foreign to keep destroying what once was the great American nation and what we believe to be its legacy.

That is done because profits, money making and greed.

In America not body from the top cares what happen to the nation or its citizens future as long as the citizens comply with what is been done to us and don't complain too much.

America is been reaped apart and we just lie dumb and stupid and what was once a pride to be is now demonized, like proctectionist, patriotism and socialism.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 10:05 AM
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The concept behind world trade is to enable countries like China to develop industrially, and therefore raise their standard of living, but China is a totalitarian state, which works more to maintain control over the people than to improve their standards of living.

As long as the standards of living of third world nations remains flat, they will not be able to consume the goods they produce, and as there are fewer people making good money in the first world nations due to the exportation of good paying jobs, there are fewer and fewer people to purchase the goods produced by cheap third world labor.

Thus the whole system grinds to a halt, which is what we are currently experiencing.

We also have the problems with International corporation being able to transfer wealth from the consumers of first world nations to the super rich by eliminating the jobs from the technology created by the workers of the first world nations, and transferring those jobs to overseas slave labor markets. Of course when they aren't also giving jobs inside the U.S. to immigrants willing to work for far less money.

The answer is to start mass manufacturing from a small business economy of scale, and simply eliminate the corporate hierarchies which are nothing but giant leaches on our economies, enabled by corrupt monetary policies.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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Buying American simply means you're trying to create a self-sustaining industry, e.g. more jobs, less borrowing from other nations. That in turn means less debt, which America is drowning in right now. Instead of printing more money to avoid defaulting all its foreign debt, it makes sense to get the national industry back on track.

Does Obama have the balls to defy the EU ambassador, or are he and Joe Biden going to fool around awhile longer with Da Change Peoplez? Right now I'm a pessimist and remain convinced that unless we promote a conservative 130+ IQ philosopher to dictator, whether he's white, black or blue, this empire is going to fall harder than Oprah in a UFC contest.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by David9176
 


Basically protectionism hurts the common man more than it helps him, as do all State interventions in the market.

The only thing that helps the poor people is when government stays out of the market and monetary system entirely.
[edit on 10-3-2010 by mnemeth1]


Every economic graduate or Phds, or even Economic Nobel Prize winners who wrote long thesis or led others to believe in Comparative Advantage or Globalisation, better known as Anti-Protectionism, should surrender their degrees and awards!

And if they had stupidly believed that governments should not intervene in markets, then they should also do the same and return to schools and re-learn.

This financial crisis had driven home the realities of their views which resulted in the big mess they had created on national economic policies. If not for government intervention – convincing taxpayers, even putting their own careers on the line to help stabilize the markets, the poor would all had starved and the rich murdered already!

The basic premise of anti-protectionism is that it would only make the employer or biz owners rich, by restricting trade between other nations that could have provided cheaper similar products to the masses.

For example: - Country A produces wheat and sells a bag of it at $5 to its citizens. Country B, due to its low labor and land costs, could produce the same wheat and sell to any country at $3 per bag.

However, Country A farmers would be bankrupt if Country B is allowed to do so, therefore, they appeal to the authorities to impose tariffs/taxes so that the wheat from Country B will eventually be sold at $7 to consumers in Country A, thus A citizens will continue buy local wheat as it is ‘cheaper’.

So protectionism must be scraped in order to help the citizens buy the ‘true’ cheaper wage from Country B

But such beliefs only work if Country A farmer is a single monopoly resource or a cartel of wheat farmers. America however has laws against monopoly, and furthermore, they are plenty of other wheat farmers to provide competition which will keep the prices in check within US.

Comparative Advantage is a lie! Country B could sell wheat at a lower price was due to its low regard to human development, such as China which has low social spending programes in education and health. Secondly, many corners had been cut in its productions such as tainted or toxic processes resulted. Thirdly, corruption is rife, which often results in the workers there kept under slave conditions while the employers and foreign Corporations rich.

Fourthly, even at $3 a bag in China, with ‘free trade’ that removes trade barriers, the Globalist Corporations still sells to the American consumer at $4.50, pocketing the difference. ‘Free trade’/Globalization only made the greedy Excessive Capitalist bastards Corporations rich.

Should America not adopt protectionist policies and re-invent manufacturing processes, the poor in both nations will only continue to suffer in the hands of the Globalist Corporations.

I can continue to write more, but guess many would have a better pic of what's going on now...



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


You don't understand the whole story and are speaking from a position of ignorance.

If you take the time to study all of the effects that occur from free trade you'll see all participants are better off in the end.

We do not have free trade today. We have managed trade. We also have massive market interference by government and artificially suppressed interest rates.

The federal reserve's action of suppressing interest rates, along with high taxation and regulation, is what has caused our industry to move overseas. Free trade has little to do with it. Although China does appear to be artificially suppressing the value of its currency, which causes a trade imbalance.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


You don't understand the whole story and are speaking from a position of ignorance.

If you take the time to study all of the effects that occur from free trade you'll see all participants are better off in the end.

We do not have free trade today. We have managed trade. We also have massive market interference by government and artificially suppressed interest rates.

The federal reserve's action of suppressing interest rates, along with high taxation and regulation, is what has caused our industry to move overseas. Free trade has little to do with it. Although China does appear to be artificially suppressing the value of its currency, which causes a trade imbalance.


Rather than to waste bandwidth arguing with you, as both you are I are annonymously insignificant here anyway, I will leave the REALITIES of what's happening today for the readers to judge and act.

Your ignorance or refusal to face up to current reality is something you have to live with, on your own as this life is yours and not mine to live in. Enjoy your 'truths' or the presumptions of it.

Cheers.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 


protectionism has historically been scurge on the lower and lower-middle classes. its actually a very interesting topic to delve into. the very first european movement's against protectionism were actually led by advocates for the poor, who couldn't afford basic products like shoes, etc, because of the protection of upper-middle class union workers etc.

it is true, and ironic, that today many lower and middle class individuals in the united states are the ones who bitch the most about 'losing jobs' and 'buying american.' sad that they also support minimum wage laws, etc that make these goals less attainable.

in the end, however, these same people are benefits of free trade everytime they shop at walmart and probably forget their 'buy american' philosophy just long enough to stock up on tons of cheap products.

So, while these people may talk (and answer poll questions) one way, while sitting around their living rooms. the way they vote with their dollars, now, just as it was in the past is probably as pro-free trade as any scholar you'd find at the CATO institute, haha.



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by reptoidsonice
reply to post by David9176
 


the very first european movement's against protectionism were actually led by advocates for the poor, who couldn't afford basic products like shoes, etc, because of the protection of upper-middle class union workers etc.



huh? What 'protection of upper middle class UNION workers' are you talking about here???!!!

Still keeping your job in the Corporation? How's the pay? I head they are paying top dollar still while other honest hardworking americans have to live in tents. You guys managed to rip off the poor again. Socialise debts but privatise profits.

Edit: C'mon, stop blaming the american people. What choice did the Corporations gave them?

Operating from an uneven and uncionable playing field, the mom and pop shops had to closed, those that are still with a conscience and socially responsible are struggling while the fat cats operating from overseas are dumping cheap but unrealiable necessities. Have a heart, and come out with some solutions, will ya?


[edit on 10-3-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


Well, considering every economist on the face of the planet agrees with me, I'll stick to my opinion.

Free trade is one area where Keynesians, the Chicago school, and the Austrians all agree, it improves the lives of everyone involved.

If you are looking for someone to blame for the current economic mess, you should be pointing the finger at the federal reserve system and our criminal government, not free trade.




[edit on 10-3-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Mar, 10 2010 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Free trade generally makes our economy dependent upon the import of cheap products that we can't compete with, and reduces things to the lowest denominator.





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