Survivor of USS Liberty speaks out on Fox news

Originally posted by mmiichael


Not enough. But more than White Supremacist trailer park rednecks are offering. And I don't have to wear that stupid white robe to pick up the cheque.

Any chance we can discuss the OP?

Israel's deliberate attack on the USS Liberty.

Originally posted by Sean48

Any chance we can discuss the OP?

Israel's deliberate attack on the USS Liberty.

I guess no one wants to even mention an actual objective study done on the incident.

Causes too much cognitive dissonance to find out a favourite conspiracy theory is unfounded.

Endorsement and reviews of Cristol's book by pretty qualified people.

www.thelibertyincident.com...

Praise for The Liberty Incident

"After years of research for this book, Judge A. Jay Cristol has reached a similar conclusion to one my father reached in his June 18, 1967, endorsement of the findings of the court of inquiry. I commend Judge Cristol for his thoroughness and fairness, and I commend this work."
- SEN. JOHN McCAIN

"The Liberty Incident puts twenty-five years of conspiracy theories and political confusion to rest and marks the culmination of your exhaustive research. With your in-depth analysis of what really occurred on June 8th, 1967, you have shown the light of knowledge into the darkest corners of mistrust and misconceptions. [...] You truly deserve to be commended for your extensive research, analysis and conclusions resulting in the writing of The Liberty Incident. [Full text]"
- SEN. BOB GRAHAM
Chair, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

"Only those with an ulterior motive can still cling to the conspiracy theories after Judge Jay Cristol's excellent coverage documents each detail that led to the tragic mistaken attack."
- ADM. LEON A. (BUD) EDNEY, USN (Ret.);
former NATO supreme allied commander, Atlantic;
and commander-in-chief, U.S. Atlantic command

"This is a story of mistakes in war as old as history and as current as today's headlines. Jay Cristol is well qualified to write this exhaustive history after analyzing, collecting, and cross-checking decades of interviews and reams of written material."
- ADM. DAVID E. JEREMIAH, USN (Ret.),
former vice chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

"A. Jay Cristol, with his background as a chief federal judge, lawyer, naval officer, and carrier pilot, has brought unprecedented credentials to his investigation--and account of--The Liberty Incident."
- NORMAN POLMAR,
naval analyst and author of
The Naval Institute Guide to the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet

"Judge Jay Cristol has completed exhaustive research, an accurate reconstruction of events, and persuasively reasoned analysis of the tragic circumstances which led to the Israeli attack on the Liberty.... A great book, I couldn't put it down!"
- ADM. JERRY JOHNSON, USN (Ret.),
former vice chief of naval operations

"The name I want you to remember is Jay Cristol.... He knows more about the Liberty than anybody else in the world.... He's got the most balanced view of anybody I've ever known."
- The late DONALD ENGEN,
former director, Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum


Reviews of The Liberty Incident

"This is the definitive book...a meticulous work...this book ends the debate."
- ELIOT A. COHEN,
Foreign Affairs, Nov/Dec 2002

"...an exquisitely researched and articulately presented analysis...a must-read for all who have an interest in the Liberty incident."
- Rear ADM. T. A. BROOKS, USN (Ret.)
Former Director of Naval Intelligence
Naval Intelligence Professionals Quarterly, Oct 2002

"His research is stunningly complete...."
Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2002; IX(4)

"His research is based on every available source."
- DAVID M. WITTY,
Journal of Military History 2003 Jan; 67:299-300

"This book is an historical masterpiece."
- LES KINSOLVING,
WorldNetDaily, 3 Sep 2002

"Cristol's book thoroughly investigates the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, including all official investigations, and concurs that it was a tragic mistake caused by numerous U.S. and Israeli blunders."
Military Officer, Jul 2003

"...an exhaustive analysis...the author knows more about this subject than anyone who has written about it."
- REAR ADM. PAUL TOBIN,
U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings 2002 Aug; 128(8):88

"[H]e presents a reasonable case for Israel's innocence."
Sea Power, Feb 2003

"This account of the incident is by far the best of any retelling."
- CDR. PETER B. MERSKY, USNR (Ret.),
Naval Aviation News, Mar-Apr 2003

"Cristol...makes his case that it was not deliberate. His conclusion is the result of 14 years of investigation, done with the perspective of a combat pilot, and with the painstaking care one would expect of a federal judge."
- KEITH TAYLOR,
San Diego Union-Tribune, 18 Aug 2002, p. BOOKS.5

"A painstakingly detailed and footnoted account."
- ELINOR J. BRECHER,
Miami Herald, 15 Jul 2002, p. 1B

"This is the most thorough study to date of the attack..."
- AMB. RICHARD B. PARKER,
Middle East Journal, Autumn 2002

"The book convincingly sets the record straight."
- CDR. DOUG SIEGFRIED, USN (Ret.),
Journal of Carrier Aviation, "The Hook", Fall 2002

"His book clears up the multiplying confusion."
- PETER STANFORD,
National Maritime Historical Society, "Sea History", Winter 2002-03

"It is by far, the most thorough, even handed and accurate account."
- CAPT. ERNEST E. CASTLE, USN (Ret.),
United States Naval Academy Alumni Association, "Shipmate", Nov 2002

"The most comprehensive account likely to be written."
- NORMAN POLMAR,
Navy League of the United States, "SeaPower" Almanac, Jan 2003

"...provides a painstaking, comprehensive and what I believe to be definitive view of what happened. This reviewer found The Liberty Incident to be comprehensive and convincing."
- RODERICK S. SPEER,
Military History, August 2003

"Jay Cristol...has done the U.S. government a service...." [An] "insightful book."

- JOHN DARRELL SHERWOOD,
Historian, U.S. Naval Historical Center
International Journal of Naval History, December 2003

[edit on 11-3-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael


Who wants to spend all their time arguing with hostile high school kids?

[edit on 11-3-2010 by mmiichael]

It's tough to win an argument when all you have is propaganda to back you up. Maybe you want to try arguing with kindergartners next time. It will be more of an intellectual match for you.

reply to post by mmiichael


Funny how all the folks you quote in your post above know more about the incident than the actual people who were there. Nice try.

Originally posted by quintal
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

"It's good to see this story finally being covered by the MSM. "

how many decades afterwards?
i find it depressing
also, the mention of it is fleeting and minor
it's not like they're making big documentaries about it and broadcasting them widely
fkn jews

Yeah, it is depressing that it took this long for this to come to light. I guess TPTB think it's too late for us to retaliate.


Look at the related threads I posted in the beginning and see that this story had trouble getting attention even here.

I guess I have mmiichael to thank for keeping this thread alive, without all his(?) attempts at debunking, this thread probably would have died in obscurity long ago like the other ones.

[edit on 11/3/10 by FortAnthem]

In typical laziness and fact avoidance manner of arch-conspiracists - why bother to read what will blow your theory out of the water when you can just call whoever brings it up a debunker. (note: debunking means getting rid of bunk)

There are a hundred pages of documents, records, accounts, reviews, testimonies from personnel of the USS Liberty, Israeli military, court reviews available for review.

These naturally will all be ignored and summarily dismissed.

But something like an Iranian govt TV clip will be readily accepted

Let's face it, none of you want to hear about what actually happened when a good juicy Evil Zionists story is kicking around. Why spoil your fun. As someone here has already put it so economically

"fkn jews"

For anyone interested in what really did happen, there's a few hours of reading here:

(list of linkable pdf files below)

Documents:

www.thelibertyincident.com...

Interviews:

www.thelibertyincident.com...


Documents


Time Line - Chronology of Events

1967 Mideast Crisis Messages

Al-Ahram articles

Boston affidavit comments

Congressional Record (1968, 2003, 2004, 2005)

CNO - Daily Briefing Notes

Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Memoranda (1967)

Diplomatic Notes (1980)

FAA Critical Seconds Chart

FOIA Lawsuit Against NSA (at fas.org)

Foreign Broadcast Information Service

Foreign Relations of the United States, Volume XIX

Gotcher Debunked

Gag Orders Debunked

Hot Line

Identification of Ships at Sea

Investigations (US):

CIA Position

CIA Reports 1967

US Navy Court of Inquiry (1967)

Endorsements

JAG Summary of Events

Findings of Fact

Hanley Letter

Injured Personnel

Photographs taken during and after the attack

Joint Chiefs of Staff Report (Russ Report; 1967)

Clark Clifford Report (1967)

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Investigation (1967)

House Armed Services Committee Investigation (1971)

House Armed Services Committee Investigation (1991-2)

National Security Agency, Report to the Director (1967)

National Security Agency, Alger, Julie, "A Review of the Technical

Research Program 1961-1969"

National Security Agency Report (1981)

National Security Agency Release of 2 July 2003

National Security Agency Release of 6 June 2007

NSA Hebrew Linguist #1

NSA Hebrew Linguist #2

NSA Hebrew Linguist #3

Investigations (Israeli):

Ram Ron Report (1967)

Examining Judge's Report (1967)

IDF History Department Report (1982)

Israeli Air Force Report (2002)

Israel Defense Force Chain of Command

Israel Navy Ship Identification Handbook

Israel Navy - Composition in 1967 per Jane's Fighting Ships

Law of Armed Conflict/Law of War - SECNAV Instruction

Letter to Editor of the US Naval Institute Proceedings (Stewart Harris)

Letter to Cristol from Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, Jr.

Letter to Cristol from Captain William L. McGonagle

Line of Sight

Logs:

U.S. Navy Logs

Israel Navy Logs

Nowicki Documents

Official Correspondence Responding to Requests for Additional Investigations

Perception vs. Reality

Presidential Positions

Salans Memorandum

Brooks, Rear Admiral T.A. USN (Ret.), Review of "The Liberty Incident"

Cristol responds to U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings article

Cristol comments on affidavit of Captain Ward Boston

Trulock, III, Notra, Review of "The Liberty Incident"


Interviews


Captain Bert M. Atkinson (22 May 1992): Transcript and Letter

McGeorge Bundy (19 April 1993): Transcript

Ambassador William N. Dale (25 February 1992): Transcript

George Golden (11 March 1991): Transcript

Robert S. McNamara (17 December 1993): Transcript

Ambassador Richard B. Parker: Memorandum, Article, Review

Ambassador Dwight J. Porter (20 November 1991): Transcript

Dean Rusk (5 April 1989): Transcript

[edit on 12-3-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
In typical laziness and fact avoidance manner of arch-conspiracists - why bother to read what will blow your theory out of the water when you can just call whoever brings it up a debunker. (note: debunking means getting rid of bunk)

There are a hundred pages of documents, records, accounts, reviews, testimonies from personnel of the USS Liberty, Israeli military, court reviews available for review.

"In typical laziness and fact avoidance manner of arch-conspiracists"?

"fact avoidance" ?

How about THESE facts posted before and so many others that ARE NOT made by people complicit to the event and the cover-up?

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]

And then you have this little tidbit;

Israel attacked the USS Liberty using UNMARKED AIRCRAFT. This is the single fact which proves Israel knew exactly who they were attacking. Israel's story is that they thought USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship and therefore a legitimate target of war. Were that true, there would be no reason to attack a supposedly Egyptian ship with unmarked aircraft. The only possible reason to use unmarked aircraft to attack the ship is that Israel knew it was an American ship and intended to sink it, then to blame the attack on Egypt.

Moorer, who as top legal council to the official investigation is in a position to know, agrees that Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel's behalf. This seems to be a common trick of Israel. Starting with the Lavon affair, through the USS Liberty, to the fake radio transmitter that tricked Reagan into attacking Libya, to potentially 9-11 itself, Israel's game is to frame Arabs and set them up as targets for the United States.

The official US investigation is discredited. And with it, every claim of innocence for Israel that relied on the official investigation as a source.

The real question facing the American people is why the US Government seems more concerned with protecting Israel after they are caught playing these dirty tricks, rather than doing something to convince Israel not to kill any more Americans.

So this is all BS, the Pilot is mistaken? HE WAS THERE AND REFUSED TO INGAGE FURTHER! HE stated that HE saw the AMERICAN FLAG AND REPORTED IT! What is wrong with you, innocent men were killed/murdered!! And that's okay with you so long as you can point out all the BS from people who were not their and whose JOB it is to help cover it up? It's not a conspiracy when good and honest people KNOW the real truth and can SEE through the lies and propoganda YOU post.

Give it a rest, you are convincing NO ONE of this BS!!!!!!!

Edit to add; YOU have no idea what the orignal OP's motives are. You have no idea what this man, who steps forward to tell the truth and deal with his anger and grief, is all about. SO KNOCK IT OFF!!

[edit on 13-3-2010 by daddio]

Originally posted by daddio
"fact avoidance" ?

How about THESE facts posted before and so many others that ARE NOT made by people complicit to the event and the cover-up?

Just more fact avoidance as and persistent refusal to even look at the massive primary documentation and first-hand accounts.

A dozen websites and a TV show regurgitating the same disinformation does not suddenly make something true.

I posted a link to the original documentation and analysis. There has not been one reference to any of it.

Read this prime example:

Lt. Stewart M. Harris, Communications Officer on the USS Davis, boarded the USS Liberty immediately after the incident and conducted the initial and hands-on investigation and interviews.

In the letter below he notes the latter day attempts by a handful of the 300 crew members who have tried to fuel disinformation on the USS Liberty.

www.thelibertyincident.com...

Letter to Editor of the US Naval Institute Proceedings

In June 1967, LTJG Stewart M. Harris was the Communications Officer aboard the USS Davis, the first US Navy ship to reach the Liberty after the attack.


"When I boarded Liberty on the morning of 9 June 1967, I found chaos, confusion, wounded men, a little fire and a lot of smoke. Now, thirty-six years later, the Naval Institute Proceedings has added a great deal of smoke to a fire that should have gone out long ago.
That summer morning in 1967, I was communications officer for ComDesRon 12, SOPA for destroyers Davis and Massey, the first 6th Fleet units to reach Liberty. My assignment was to interview survivors regarding the attack, make a cursory damage assessment, and draft the first reports from the scene to CTG60.

[…]

[Captain] McGonagle specifically stated that there was little or no relative wind. He believed the light wind and the twin fires just aft of the bridge to have contributed to the aircraft being unable to identify the ship. At the conclusion of the air attacks, the ship was still able to perform her assigned mission, although the personnel casualties among the ship's company were critical.

The worst was yet to come.

At 1420, three small targets were sighted from the bridge, on the starboard beam at three or four miles and closing. These were the Israeli motor torpedo boats (MTBs) which would inflict the most grievous blow.

At 1426, according to the ship's log, the bridge noticed the steaming ensign had been lost and holiday colors were ordered hoisted. Captain McGonagle said the boats continued to approach, to within 2000 yards and "seemed to be just milling around". Liberty attempted to identify itself by flashing light, but with the smoke and electrical problems, was unable to do so.

At 1427 local, 22 minutes after the first attack by aircraft, a man not assigned topside duties grabbed on the ship's fifty caliber machine guns and began to fire on the MTBs. This was in direct violation of McGonagle's orders and the firing continued in spite of shouts from the bridge to cease fire.

Whatever had caused the MTBs to hesitate and "mill around" was resolved by the fire from Liberty. The MTBs formed a line abreast and charged in, deck guns firing and loosed a torpedo barrage. By 1435, it was all over. Liberty sustained more hits from the MTBs' machine guns, but the most important hit, the one that almost sank her, was the single torpedo hit in the starboard side. This ended the attack, according to Captain McGonagle.

Of the 293 souls aboard Liberty, more than 200 received Purple Hearts, thirty four of them posthumously.

This horrible but rather straightforward story has now grown into a cottage industry of claims and counterclaims, books, TV, and even a proposed movie deal. The Liberty Veterans Association (LVA) was formed in 1982 to stimulate interest in the attack and advance the claim that the attack was deliberate. While specifically disavowing any anti-Semitic interest, the LVA has become a haven for hangers-on with just such designs. The Liberty listserve was one of the first places readers could learn that 4000 Jews had not gone to work at the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001. Among the claims advanced on the listserve prior to its demise under the weight of anti-Israeli and even anti-Semitic screeds were these:

A periscope was seen alongside Liberty during the attack. It was reported that this sub was close enough not only to hear the attack, but to take pictures through its periscope. The sub was identified as USS Amberjack. When the sub was identified, both the captain and the chief of the boat stated that the report was not true and that the sub was nowhere near Liberty. The sub was in fact several hundred miles away, laying off Alexandria, watching the comings and goings of Soviet traffic.

One of the repeated claims is that everybody in the Sixth Fleet should be court marshaled for failing to come to the aid of Liberty while she was under attack. At a minimum, so LVA members claimed, this was cowardice in the face of the enemy. The attack began at 1405, Liberty got out its first message to USS Saratoga at 1420, and the attack was over at 1435. Saratoga rebroadcast the message to the fleet at 1436. These facts do not enter into the calculus of the LVA. The timeline itself casts a different light on claims that the aircraft from Sixth Fleet carriers were recalled by the White House. The impossibility of the communications link is beside the point because the fleet was not alerted until after the torpedo attack. Only the carriers' prop driven A-1s had the range to reach Liberty. They were more than 500 miles away. At 200 knots, it would have been hours before the A-1s reached Liberty. The rejoinder from the LVA advocates? Time and distance don't matter.

Such has been the level of discussion with the LVA group, one of Mr. Walsh's repeated reference sources.

The publication of Mr. Walsh's article is little more than the comparison of two books, one more than 20 years old, albeit recently revised. And the inclusions of "references" such as "Ennes, email 3 March 2003" and "Ennes, email 9 March 2003" should have sent your editors to General Quarters. Most of the remaining references rely on first one book and then the other. In truth, the first footnote in Mr. Walsh's article explains the point of view for the entire piece:
"Background on the attack is largely from James Ennes, Jr. Assault on the Liberty."

The author has stated his most important reference, and it betrays him in the first paragraph when he includes "rockets" in the ordnance used against Liberty, a small thing, but indicative of what is to follow in the article. According to contemporary (1967) reports in Aviation Week, the first section of attacking Mirages could not be configured to carry rockets. The second section of Israeli jets, Super Mysters, carried cannon and napalm bombs. Although one fragment of napalm was found aboard after the attack, it is all but impossible to assign any of the ensuing fires to that weapon. My personal inspection revealed multiple fragment holes and damage consistent with exploding cannon shells, but no "point" impacts associated with rocket hits.

Mr. Walsh states, "Although Liberty crew members insist the attack lasted about an hour and a quarter, Judge Cristol's book asserts that the Israeli jets and MTBs finished their grisly business in only 22 to 25 minutes." The longer attack scenario is a favorite of the LVA. "Hours and hours of attack," they often claim. Perhaps Judge Cristol asserts the shorter period of time because that is what Captain McGonagle told the Chief of Naval Operations

[…]

The misidentification of Liberty by her attackers, both aircraft and MTBs, continues to mystify, especially among the ranks of those who have never been to sea. Start with the given that the United States had stated at the UN that there were no US ships within 300 miles of Israel. Then, take the photo that accompanies the USNI article and set it up at a distance of three or four feet. Imagine yourself coming across the water at that target, trying to aim your guns and avoid any of hers, assuming she has some, and then tell me about the flags flying. All the flags. Tough test.

And the MTBs were a mile from the Liberty. They had been told that there was an Egyptian shp in the area. The one in front of them was burning from IAF attacks. And then the ship fires on them. If it wasn't American - and everyone knew there were no American ships within 300 miles - what else could it be than some old Egyptian transport? All those funny antennas on deck? Just makes it more clear that it is a military target.

[…]

publication of Mr. Walsh's article, however, with all its inaccuracies, biases and questionable sourcing does not sustain the intellectual level of debate within the magazine I have come to expect over the last 27 years. But the use of the USNI to further the blind ambitions of this small group of revisionist historians is an even greater disappointment.

[edit on 13-3-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


Your statements are all BS, how about the pilot, and the Israeli Major who heard what the pilot was saying, that is not fact? They were arrested!!!

WTF are you on about? Are you in on it? Seems to me you are.

What about the falg and the fact the aircraft were unmarked, could not the gunboats see the flag also? So where do you come off saying they believe IT WASN"T AN AMERICAN VESSEL? Please.

Originally posted by daddio
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Your statements are all BS, how about the pilot, and the Israeli Major who heard what the pilot was saying, that is not fact? They were arrested!!!

WTF are you on about? Are you in on it? Seems to me you are.

What about the falg and the fact the aircraft were unmarked, could not the gunboats see the flag also? So where do you come off saying they believe IT WASN"T AN AMERICAN VESSEL? Please.

Another expert. I love when people use CAPS. Means they're frothing.

Have you read the documentation plus the newly released records from the US State Dept? Or just the twisted conspiracy crap and the new Iranian material?

Fully documented on ten levels. Read what the participants said when it happened. US told Israelis there wasn't a US ship for 300 miles. The flag wasn't visible. The reports about what the Israeli pilot supposedly said has no confirmation - it's made up. And on and on.

Of course Iran is suddenly running with this disinformation very concerned about the fate of US military personel 43 years ago.

But keep on reading the same BS.

Hundreds of incidents of friendly fire in the last 50 years. Americans accidentally shooting Brits, Iraqi police, etc. This is the one that has conspiracists crawling out of the woodwork and has Iran fixated on it.

Guess why?

Oh those Evil Evil Zionists.

www.mererhetoric.com...

In 2004 the State Department released what it still had about the USS Liberty case. These were primary documents as well as documents relating to multiple internal US investigations. Across the board consensus: Israel didn't know that the unmarked ship floating off its waters during an existential conflict was a US spy ship. These documents were supposed to be case closed. Or more precisely: case closed again, because it was a confirmation of original tapes released by both sides, other investigations, etc.

But it's a chance to demonize Israel, so who cares if it's 40 year old settled historical fact? On October 2nd, the Chicago Tribune became the latest Anglo media outlet to drop the USS Liberty smear into a story. Except instead of dropping it into a story, they made it the whole story. And what was the article's top new argument? The one that apparently justified an above the fold front page story with a headline, a picture, and a full two-page spread inside?

Wow: The Israeli inquiry later concluded that that information had simply gotten lost, never passed along to the ground controllers who directed the air attack nor to the crews of the three Israeli torpedo boats...To a man, the [US] survivors interviewed by the Tribune rejected Israel's explanation.

Of course, the article goes on to list all of the old evidence that multiple American investigations found uncompelling or outweighed by contrary evidence. That contrary evidence, the evidence that convinced multiple investigations that the attack was an accident, seems to be missing from the Chicago Trib article. But guess which country's media immediately picked up the story anyway? It's touching to see the Iranians - the backers of fanatics in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan - so concerned about the fate of US troops.

Now is it just us or have things been getting genuinely scary lately? Academic realists, committed to the idea that nations definitionally act in their self-interest, betray decades-old scholarship so they can slander Jews with millennium-old anti-Semitic canards. Genocidal maniacs, declaring that Jews are filthy and at the root of global disease and conflict, have no shortage of academics to excuse them and diplomats to fete them. Every single day anti-Semites flood media outlets from European newspapers to YouTube. There is no charge or slander against Jews or Israel - no matter how absurdly obscure or obviously wrong - that cannot get a public hearing. There's virtually nothing off limits any more. And now, very publicly, the thinnest of pretexts are being thrust back into the public discourse - so that, if the worst happens, billions of people and countless sophisticates can tsk tsk to themselves about how the Jews brought it upon themselves.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by FortAnthem

I guess I have mmiichael to thank for keeping this thread alive, without all his(?) attempts at debunking, this thread probably would have died in obscurity long ago like the other ones.

I also have to thank mmiichael. He brought me to double-check a lot of things. Perhaps otherwise I would have fallen for authors like Ahron Jay Cristol, Michael Oren or articles written by CAMERA. These authors are often the primary expert sources for secondary MSM articles. They are also the ones invited to panel discussions like the one in 2004 called: “"War, Intelligence and the USS Liberty*.” The background of these expert sources, their history and potential bias are almost never revealed in secondary articles.

* I would appreciate it, if someone could provide a working link to a video of this discussion. It was originally shown on C-SPAN 2

Ahron Jay Cristol's website (main source for mmiicahel, also only source for many MSM articles:
www.thelibertyincident.com...

Here a link to a relative harmless commentary about his work. On survivor-websites, the anger and disgust directed against Cristol is usually much stronger. Likely it was also Cristol's book which brought Boston to write his affidavit.
www.usslibertyinquiry.com...
www.uss-liberty.com...

A. J. Cristol starts his book with a manipulated photo. Not only is the photo manipulated, he has also lied about it's origin. Many of his other findings contradict stories of surviving witnesses. In my opinion this is enough to discredit him, but everyone should decide for himself, what kind of sources he finds trustworthy.

Photo manipulation, origin of photo
www.usslibertyveterans.org...
www.usslibertyinquiry.com...

Sometimes the truth can be subjective. We like to have our own opinions and believes confirmed. We overlook facts and evidence which contradicts them. I believe no one is resistant against this kind of self-deceit. But some people and organisations go a step further.

Please read the Wikipedia article and follow the links. Decide four yourself whether you believe that CAMERA will give an accurate and balanced coverage of the USS Liberty incident.
en.wikipedia.org...-Telegraph-68

Michael Oren is also often quoted as expert source, here something about his background written by the investigative journalist James Bamford:

For example, it would be important to know whether the author of the article, Michael Oren, who was harshly critical of my chapter on the Israeli military's role in the attack on the Liberty, has any ties to Israel himself. I am a totally independent writer and have no ties to either Israel or any organisation involved with the USS Liberty.

Oren, however, is a reserve officer and war veteran of the Israeli Defense Forces as well as a former advisor to the government of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin -- who was Army chief of staff at the time the Liberty was attacked. He now works for a small right wing, pro-Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli think tank in Jerusalem, the Shalem Center. It is run by its founder, Yoram Hazony, one of former Prime Minister Netanyahu's closest aides (he also ghost wrote a book by him). During the race for prime minister, the political party of Ehud Barak even accused the center of illegally funneling money to Netanyahu -- a charge denied by the center. The Israeli Education Ministry has called the center "a research institute whose leanings are extreme right-wing and even fascistic."

The principal mission of the center, where Mr. Oren is a senior fellow, is the cause of extreme Jewish nationalism -- Israel for the Jews -- i.e. apartheid. That is hardly surprising given that the center's intellectual guru, Yoram Hazony, is an admitted admirer of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane. He is the racist, fanatic founder of the violent Jewish Defense League in the U.S. and the rabid anti-Arab Kach movement in Israel, which is now outlawed there and listed as a terrorist group in the U.S. In 1984 Kahane was elected to the Israeli Knesset on a platform calling for the expulsion of Arabs from Israel.

Typical of the comments uttered by Hazony's demagogic idol: "I want the Israeli Arabs out of here because I don't want to kill them every week, as they multiply and demonstrate"; "They are germs that are poisoning us. They will not leave us be until they have raped all our women and murdered all our men"; and "I recognize the submachine gun's right to speak and the knife's right to speak."

www.fas.org...

Oren works for the Israeli government. If you want to find out something about the official Israeli government interpretation of terroristic attacks, about culpability and truth, please check out the King David Hotel Bombing or Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair).

King David Hotel Bombing:
Terror is celebrated, guilty are not the terrorists, but the people targeted
www.timesonline.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...

Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair)
www.ynetnews.com...
www.mideastweb.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

For those who are interested in truth about topics dealing with Israel, Frank Luntz, the Liar in Chief created a secret hasbara handbook. The book is written for pro-Israel advocates and contains techniques how to manipulate discussions and audiences. Knowing that someone tries to manipulate you may help to counter it.
seminal.firedoglake.com...

Direct link to the Handbook “The Israel Project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary (116 pages)” But be warend! In the eyes of a fervent Zionist studying this handbook might be enough to transform the unauthorized reader into either a self-hating jew or a white supremacist/anti-Semite.
www.newsweek.com...

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
\
I also have to thank mmiichael. He brought me to double-check a lot of things. Perhaps otherwise I would have fallen for authors like Ahron Jay Cristol, Michael Oren or articles written by CAMERA. These authors are often the primary expert sources for secondary MSM articles. They are also the ones invited to panel discussions like the one in 2004 called: “"War, Intelligence and the USS Liberty*.” The background of these expert sources, their history and potential bias are almost never revealed in secondary articles.

Keep trying. You of course will Google away and refuse to read any of the primary source material. Just wish it away as MSM. And ignore the fact that Cristol uses the documentation and testimony from US naval intelligence sources and the personnel involved. He quotes it, he doesn't write it.

Who is more credible, the navy's investigating officer on board the same day, or people like Bamford cherry picking aberrant accounts and giving opinions decades later.

How do you reconcile the State Dept material only released in 2004, years after Cristol's investigation, fully concurs with what was found in 1967, what he found, and the testimony of the vast majority of crew members?

Like with 911 and arguments why the WTC buildings fell, amateur conspiracists refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming weight of evidence on a subject by independent professionals and eyewitnesses in favour of whack job theories.

Still to be determined by theorists - exactly what could Israel gain by damaging a US vessel and killing 34 US personel? Why would the US military have it's members go along and lie about it?

I'm sure Google can come up with all sorts of implied associations. Nothing in the world is totally disconnected. Conjectural revisionist pseudo-history is a popular game. When you can successfully counter the verified documentation and first hand testimony with equally solid ones you might have a case.






[edit on 15-3-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by Drunkenshrew


Very well done. What I am at a loss for is the fact that mmiicheal keeps repeating the same things over and over, that is obviously the tactics used by the "governments" (read corporations) to brainwash us.

No one is going to believe anything he states as the obvious is apparent. Truth is subjective, but when you understand what the motives are for the event, the real truth is easy to see. Why would anyone believe the "government" or mmiichael, we have been lied to from the beginning. Get over it.

We...... know what to believe, in ourselves.

[edit on 16-3-2010 by daddio]

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Why didn't America punish Israel?

How low do you have to go to let somebody attack you.

It's clear to me that this is not a clear-cut case of Israel attacking a US ship for no reason. I don't buy the false flag attack idea either. My opinion is that the Israelis received bad intelligence regarding the USS Liberty, and were fearful of it's intelligence-gathering capability being used against it in the middle of a war for Israel's survival.They attacked the ship, bungled the operation badly, then covered it up by claiming it was mistaken identity. Because LBJ was so pro-Israeli, he participated in the cover-up, realising that nothing could be gained by exposure being given to Israel's reason for the attack, which were basically paranoid Israeli spook theories about the USS Liberty passing critical wartime intelligence to the Egyptians. What we have to realise is that the intelligence community lives in a rarefied world of its own, with truth, politics and rumours all contributing to the intelligence mix used by political and military leaders to make wartime decisions. The US went to war in Iraq based on dubious intelligence. Likewise, the USS Liberty was attacked for the same reason: Israeli intelligence paranoia. Maybe elements of truth contributed to the story, certainly not every American supports Israel, and there are those in the US military and State Dept who might wish the US was not so pro-Israel, but I don't believe these people had the upper hand in 1967.

Here is an interesting link related to this whole angle on the USS Liberty attack:

www.wrmea.com...

This incident is much like Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor..

except America's response is OPPOSITE its response upon Japan