Survivor of USS Liberty speaks out on Fox news

Originally posted by mmiichael

Unless you're still in Sunday School you come to realize truth is a slippery commodity.

People carry on discreet romances and lie about it. Companies convince the public their product is better than it really is. People misinform the government about their real income, uses evasion tactics to avoid taxes. Alcoholics, drug addicts, lie about their dependencies. Children lie to their parents. People say they're in love when they aren't, and on and on.

It's part of living like it or not. Everyone lies at some time.

My own guideline is that mistruths are acceptable when they don't cause much damage harm, or pain.

I wish there was a way I could give out negative stars for particularly awful posts like that.

You would have done great in the Bush administration.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Really? This link is your proof that Tito Howard is a white supremacist? But then I remember you used the term also in the post which was adressed to me. I urge everyone to just google Tito Howard and do their own fact checking. You can add the key words white supremacist. Better just listen, to what the man has to say. Besides mmiichael the ADLseems to be the only source, which accuses Tito Howard to be a white supremacist. I wonder why?

There's life beyond Google.

And maybe learn to read. I said you can check this out at Stormfront discussion board and other friendly White Supremacist sources. ATS blocks links to their site. You'll find good company.

Check out America's favourite Neo-Nazi, David Duke, he's a big supporter of Howard and his ilk.

Of course anyone that disagrees with the Klu Klux Klan labeled a Zionist/ADL/Mossad.

Great assembly of deep political analysts here.




[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

You accused Tito Howard to be a known player in the White Supremacist movement. Not that his movies are disucssed on their message boards.

Originally posted by FortAnthem

I wish there was a way I could give out negative stars for particularly awful posts like that.

You would have done great in the Bush administration.

I did not reply to it.
I was once sued in US Federal Court, them that were doin the suing had the money, I HAD some litigation insurance...one nite, I was at my neighborhood bar, having a drink.. yes a drink.. and a guy came in, sat down on a stool one away from me.. and then struck up a conversation.

This guy proceeded to explain how truth is relative and everyone has to sell out once in a while...etc etc and later he said he had a trunk full of money and an ounce of coke and a girlfriend that liked (my nationality)....and 'liked to party...'

Everyone in the bar were basically locals..one of them that I knew well came up to me after the conversation and said.. "i heard some of that, that was just too weird" I just nodded and said, yup. "too weird" and ordered he and I another round.

Meeting people like that turned my stomach then too.



[edit on 10-3-2010 by seataka]

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Really? This link is your proof that Tito Howard is a white supremacist? But then I remember you used the term also in the post which was adressed to me. I urge everyone to just google Tito Howard and do their own fact checking. You can add the key words white supremacist. Better just listen, to what the man has to say. Besides mmiichael the ADLseems to be the only source, which accuses Tito Howard to be a white supremacist. I wonder why?

There's life beyond Google.

And maybe learn to read. I said you can check this out at Stormfront discussion board and other friendly White Supremacist sources. ATS blocks links to their site. You'll find good company.

Check out America's favourite Neo-Nazi, David Duke, he's a big supporter of Howard and his ilk.

Of course anyone that disagrees with the Klu Klux Klan labeled a Zionist/ADL/Mossad.

Great assembly of deep political analysts here.

You accused Tito Howard to be a known player in the White Supremacist movement. Not that his movies are disucssed on their message boards.

Here how things work in real life, not Internet Conspiracy Lalaland.

The US engages in military action. In the past 50 years or so a few thousand personel have died in what's termed friendly fire. Accidents and mistakes happen in the heat of battle - with everyone. Sometimes by their own troops, sometimes an allied force.

34 servicemen died on the US Liberty due to a case of mistaken identity made by Israeli forces. The people most concerned about this, the US military, investigated immediately after and concluded it was a case of 'friendly fire.'

You are welcome to disagree with their findings, but you weren't there 43 years ago. They were.




[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

And these guys were there then..

American Free Press newspaper (and before it The Spotlight) were the only newspapers in America we know of to expose the facts about this brutal and wanton attack before the truth was aired on the Discovery Channel more than 30 years after the event

LINK

• Stan White: “I stepped out on deck, and a plane came by, and I looked right in the cockpit. He waved. I waved. That’s how close they were. They knew who we were.”

• Even-Tov (one of the Israeli Pilots) told McCloskey that he had immediately recognized the Liberty as an American vessel and radioed that information to his headquarters, but was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

• Joe Meadors: “My only job during the attack was to make sure that the flag was flying; so every few minutes I would walk out to the signal bridge up at the mast.”

Remember the USS Liberty!

And we are here now and I promise many of us shall repeat this over and over no matter what labels you try to slide onto the forum to deflect such dishonour.


Lyrics by Bob Dylan 1963 Warner Bros. Inc (c) Renewed 1991 Special Rider Music

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead




[edit on 10-3-2010 by seataka]

"If you are interested in this period I recommend reading books by people who were there and have done primary research and not depend on lunatic ravings found on agenda-driven conspiracy websites and Youtube."

Have you forgotten? This thread pertains to John Scott, an American serviceman who WAS on The Liberty. Why is it OK for you to discredit him? Could it be because you do not like what he has to say? I'll take his word over somebody on the internet who professes to be a reader of The Gospel.

"You are welcome to disagree with their findings, but you weren't there 43 years ago. They were."

John Scott was on The Liberty, not the military investigators, who obviously came to some politically motivated conclusion. Again, I'll take the word of a brave and heroic American military serviceman over some agenda driven suit and ties sitting in the comfort of a Washington DC office while playing with other people's lives.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
"If you are interested in this period I recommend reading books by people who were there and have done primary research and not depend on lunatic ravings found on agenda-driven conspiracy websites and Youtube."

Have you forgotten? This thread pertains to John Scott, an American serviceman who WAS on The Liberty. Why is it OK for you to discredit him? Could it be because you do not like what he has to say? I'll take his word over somebody on the internet who professes to be a reader of The Gospel.

"You are welcome to disagree with their findings, but you weren't there 43 years ago. They were."

John Scott was on The Liberty, not the military investigators, who obviously came to some politically motivated conclusion. Again, I'll take the word of a brave and heroic American military serviceman over some agenda driven suit and ties sitting in the comfort of a Washington DC office while playing with other people's lives.

John Scott was in a ship that was shot at. He did not participate in the follow-up. He was an ensign not a qualified investigator. Capt McGonacle and another ensign provided records produced the same day.

A very deep investigation followed. Details here:

en.wikipedia.org...

As I noted, like dozens of others, usually in the UFO field, late in life a retiree, often with a family member or ghost writer, fed by the controversial material floating around decides he was part of a conspiracy.

Have any of the original investigators who dealt with forensics and made inquiries with the Israelis gone on record saying they was a cover-up? Did the ship's personnel collectively raise a fuss a year after? 5 years later?

There is a conspiracy publishing sub-industry. Few take their often outlandish claims seriously.

Read US Colonel Philip Corso's or Lt Jesse Marcel's first hand accounts of Roswell aliens hidden by the military who were responsible for loads of high tech of the past decades. They were there too and had rank.

Problem is on investigation - loads of conflicts of data, names and places. Nothing corroborating except their word - half a century later.

Because some one says something in print does not make it automatically valid despite audience's wishful thinking. That's why historians and courts require tangible evidence not just testimony.

.



[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

But you have to admit he was right there during the actual sustained attack, and an eye witness. He knows what he saw.

For me, that trumps everything.

reply to post by mmiichael

I provided a link to the affidavit of Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.) on page 1. He worked as a senior counsel in the investigation of the USS Liberty incident. In his sworn formal statement you will find, that the head of the investigation, Admiral Kidd believed, that the attack was deliberate. He also stated that Kidd had direct orders for a whitewash.

Your statement: “As I noted, like dozens of others, usually in the UFO field, late in life he decides he was part of a conspiracy.” shows your true colors. The men of the USS Liberty have been bitterly betrayed by their government. Instead of compassion you ridicule them. You accuse others of spreading hate, but you are the only one who is doing it in this thread.

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
reply to post by mmiichael

 

I provided a link to the affidavit of Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.) on page 1. He worked as a senior counsel in the investigation of the USS Liberty incident. In his sworn formal statement you will find, that the head of the investigation, Admiral Kidd believed, that the attack was deliberate. He also stated that Kidd had direct orders for a whitewash.

Your statement: “As I noted, like dozens of others, usually in the UFO field, late in life he decides he was part of a conspiracy.” shows your true colors. The men of the USS Liberty have been bitterly betrayed by their government. Instead of compassion you ridicule them. You accuse others of spreading hate, but you are the only one who is doing it in this thread.

Try giving context instead of isolating a single disclaimer.

How many people were there, how many investigators? What is the consensus? What is the tangible evidence?

There are 4 of 5 people who claim a hijacked plane didn't hit the Pentagon. So what! Thousands of others, almost all non-aligned saw it happened or will involved on the cleanup. Flight recordings, DNA samples, a thousand other pieces corroborating the plane crash.

There is such a this as the 'weight' of evidence.

Would you like to go into a court where a judge would accept the word of a couple guys about you killing someone? They would claim they were there and make a positive ID.

Unsupported singular claims that conflict with proper investigations are common and mean little. Even less when someone is trying to cash in on their involvement in a controversial or high profile event.

Ask any detective how many false reports they get on widely reported crimes.





[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael

These are not unsupported singular claims. Here is an article in which dozens of witnesses, many high ranking U.S. Navy servicemen, are named and quoted. Their statements show clearly, that Israeli forces were aware, that they were attacking an American ship.
www.chicagotribune.com...

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
reply to post by mmiichael

 

These are not unsupported singular claims. Here is an article in which dozens of witnesses, many high ranking U.S. Navy servicemen, are named and quoted. Their statements show clearly, that Israeli forces were aware, that they were attacking an American ship.
www.chicagotribune.com...

Better go back and read again. The Chicago Tribune quotes only the personnel whose statements contribute to doubt or ambiguity. Most of the questions raised are about the quality of the investigation.

There is no statement that shows clearly that Israeli forces were aware that they were attacking an American ship. How could anyone onboard know exactly the intent of someone somewhere else? They say what they think. They also have 40 years of literature on the subject to incorporate. That is one reason earliest testimonies are given the greatest weight. People do embellish their stories over time.

And where are the comparative statement of the other witnesses like the Captain and ensign who filed the initial reports. What is the ratio of dissenting crew vs accepting? A critical question?

And is there a substantiated assessment of what could hoped to be accomplished by this act beyond broad speculation?

Have you ever read a transcript of a court case? Do you now why it takes months sometimes to assign culpability? And why there are appeals processes?

All cases that reach profile level and involve large numbers of conflicting statements. But in the end opinions are opinions.

And a the big question: Why would Israelis want to compromise their own allies in the middle of a war zone?

Nazi racists, UFO nuts, conspiracy lalaland... what more proof do you need that the truth is being covered-up? The facts don't support the government's lies so he resorts to ad-hominem and strawman arguments.

These guys were there:




[edit on 10-3-2010 by Crito]

Originally posted by Crito
Nazi racists, UFO nuts, conspiracy lalaland... what more proof do you need that the truth is being covered-up? The facts don't support the government's lies so he resorts to ad-hominem and strawman arguments.

These guys were there

It's a bloody PRESSTV clip. Do you know who they are? The Iranian government's propaganda mouthpiece.

PRESSTV also interviews people saying the Holocaust never happened.

A dozen vets now think it was a conspiracy. Why weren't they speaking to the press in 1968? Where have they been for 40 years?

The US navy didn't think it was anything more than friendly fire. The ship's captain and his commanding officers didn't. Naval investigator didn't.

In fact the US initiates it's support of Israel this same year.

So what do actually have, the usual opinions and speculations, a retroactively constructed conspiracy theory. Zero substantiation, no logical explanation why Israel would want to harm a US naval vessel.

But it reinforces 'Evil Zionist' so why bother seeing if it's actually.



[edit on 11-3-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by FortAnthem


"It's good to see this story finally being covered by the MSM. "

how many decades afterwards?
i find it depressing
also, the mention of it is fleeting and minor
it's not like they're making big documentaries about it and broadcasting them widely
fkn jews

Originally posted by zarp3333
reply to post by Silver Shadow

 

Over the last few weeks I have been dumbfounded numerous times as I have learned about the number of high-ranking officials in the US government with dual Israeli citizenship AND the number of Israeli owned companies contracted to handle sensitive information processing services to the U.S.

It is becoming increasingly apparent why so many countries accuse th U.S. Of being an Iraeli lackey. I used to dismiss such claims as bitterness of our close relationship with a trusted ally.

My opinion of our "alliance" is rapidly changing. This morning's news highlighted the announcement by Israel that they are moving forward with more settlements in disputed areas during VP Biden's visit to discuss peace with Palestinians.

Talk about a bitch slap in the face to Biden. It is as if they are begging for a war and telling the world that our "alliance" is very one-sided.

I never thought I would feel this way about Israel. I wonder how long it will take for other people to think this way?

Ever look inside the wreath on the back of the $1 Federal Reserve Note? What is the arrangement of those stars?

It is the star of david, put there to appease the people who supported George Washington, can't remember the guy's name who gave him all his money and died broke they claim.

I think it's a joke, many quotes by Israeli leaders saying America is Israel's Bitch, if you know what I mean. And there are a ton of quotes from military as well as congressional officials who state quite clearly that this was an INTENTIONAL attack. One of the pilots refused to fire upon the ship as HE knew it was an American ship and there is a recording of that conversation somewhere online, I don't have time to look now but if someone could check into that, it would be great. That one pilot went to prison for disobeying an order!! Go figure, do what's right and go to jail.

[edit for spelling on 11-3-2010 by daddio]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by daddio]

reply to post by mmiichael

I can only conclude that the coordinated attack by aircraft and motor torpedo boats on the U.S.S. Liberty 15 1/2 miles north of Sinai on June 8 which killed 34 officers and men of the Navy and wounded another 175 was deliberate.
"The fact that the U.S.S. Liberty was a Victory hull vessel, hundreds of which were produced and used by the U.S. Navy during World War II and since, rules out the possibility of mistaken identity. Every ship recognition book in the world has, for years, identified the characteristic Victory hull and supersturcture of the U.S.S. Liberty as U.S. Navy property . . .

"Whatever the reason for the attack, it was an act of high piracy. Those responsible should be court-martialed on charges of murder, amongst other counts. The Israel Government should pay full reparations to the United States and indemnities to the families of the Americans killed."

Craig Hosmer, then-U.S. Representative, on the floor of the House of Representatives, 29 June 1967

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]

So according to the above statement and quote, ISRAEL DID KNOW it was an American ship, I sincerely hate trolls like you and dereks, I can not stand the stupidity you present.

It is people like you that are destroying the sanity of this world. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

One more for the record...

Israel attacked the USS Liberty using UNMARKED AIRCRAFT. This is the single fact which proves Israel knew exactly who they were attacking. Israel's story is that they thought USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship and therefore a legitimate target of war. Were that true, there would be no reason to attack a supposedly Egyptian ship with unmarked aircraft. The only possible reason to use unmarked aircraft to attack the ship is that Israel knew it was an American ship and intended to sink it, then to blame the attack on Egypt.

Moorer, who as top legal council to the official investigation is in a position to know, agrees that Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel's behalf. This seems to be a common trick of Israel. Starting with the Lavon affair, through the USS Liberty, to the fake radio transmitter that tricked Reagan into attacking Libya, to potentially 9-11 itself, Israel's game is to frame Arabs and set them up as targets for the United States.

The official US investigation is discredited. And with it, every claim of innocence for Israel that relied on the official investigation as a source.

The real question facing the American people is why the US Government seems more concerned with protecting Israel after they are caught playing these dirty tricks, rather than doing something to convince Israel not to kill any more Americans.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by daddio]

There's only been one comprehensive study of the USS Liberty incident by someone qualified. The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Spy Ship Former naval aviator and Federal US Judge Jay Cristol spend a decade on the definitive re-investigation and also addressed the many conspiracy theories.

Middle East Quarterly's review and Cristol's follow-up note:

www.danielpipes.org...

The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Spy Ship

by Jay Cristol
Dulles, Va.
Brassey's, 2002


Reviewed by Daniel Pipes
Middle East Quarterly
Fall 2002


Rarely, if ever, has a single incident of war received the scrutiny given to Israel's attack in the midst of the June 1967 War on the U.S.S. Liberty. This episode, which occurred on June 8, left 34 Americans dead and 171 wounded, was immediately acknowledged by Israeli authorities as a ghastly mistake; a multitude of Israeli and American inquiries then confirmed that an error lay at the heart of the tragedy. But conspiracy theories pointing to a purposeful Israeli attack arose quickly and have persisted through the years, promoted in part by members of the Liberty's crew.

Cristol—a former U.S. naval aviator himself and presently a federal judge in Florida—has devoted fourteen years to ascertain what actually happened in the Mediterranean Sea off the Egyptian coast that day. His research is stunningly complete, tracking down what appears to be every available document and living participant in the drama, plus providing a great deal of contextual information. He reviews the issue in such great detail that it takes seven pages just to deal with the question of the U.S. flag flying on the Liberty (could the pilots have seen it? given the day's winds, how visible was it? what about the possibility of it being a false flag?).

Cristol finds fault on both the Israeli and American sides (the latter, for example, failed to inform the Israelis of the ship's presence) but comes to an unambiguous conclusion: the attack was indeed a mistake. After showing the impossibility of an intentional Israeli bombing, he then proceeds to show the absurdity of the conspiracy theories. (My favorite of them, from an Egyptian ambassador named Mahmud Qasim: the Israelis spliced the voice of Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser to have him convince Jordan's King Husayn into going to war against Israel – then tried to cover up this trick by attacking the Liberty, a spy ship capable of figuring out the deception.)

After demolishing these false notions, Cristol offers a generous interpretation to his vanquished opponents: "The Liberty incident is a classic illustration of the terrible results that can occur when friendly forces fail to keep their friends informed of their movements."


On January 2, 2003, Jay Cristol replied to his critics on this site with the following comments:

The negative user comments posted in response to the Daniel Pipes review of my book "The Liberty Incident" have one thing in common. They all are from persons who have their minds made up and it appears most are not interested in the facts and have not read the book. If after you read the book and visit my website and then disagree with my conclusion that the attack was a tragic mistake, it is a free country. You should know that the conclusion of tragic mistake is not mine alone.

The U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry convened just days after the event made 52 findings of fact. Three of the most important findings are:

1. Available evidence combines to indicate the attack on Liberty on 8 June was in fact a case of mistaken identity,

2. The calm conditions and slow ship speed may well have made the American flag difficult to identify, and

3. There are no available indications that the attack was intended against a U.S. ship.

The 727 page record, including 155 pages of sworn testimony by the commanding officer of the ship, William McGonagle, and other Liberty crew members, may be obtained from the Navy Judge Advocate General. Admiral John McCain, the Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Naval Forces Europe (and father of Senator McCain), endorsed the Court of Inquiry:

"The foregoing comments by the convening authority lead to an overall conclusion that the attack was in fact a mistake."

The Central Intelligence Agency in a letter from its director to a United States Senator dated February 27, 1978 stated the position of the CIA:

"It remains our best judgment that the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not made in malice toward the United States and was a mistake."

Clark Clifford, Chair of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, reported to the President

"Information thus far available does not reflect that the Israeli High Command made a premeditated attack on a ship known to be American."

Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1967 that there was

"No evidence that the individuals attacking. . .knew they were attacking a U.S. ship."

In 1981, the National Security Agency blamed Israeli miscalculations and American communications failures for the tragedy. Eight U.S. Presidents, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush, have all agreed that the Liberty incident was a tragic case of mistaken identity.

My book, "The Liberty Incident," is a collection of all the official investigations plus my own investigation and an analysis of the many contradictory conspiracy theories endorsed by some of the negative commentators. I merely suggest the reasonable approach to reaching a conclusion on this matter is to read the book before making a decision.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by mmiichael]

mmiichael appears to have identified himself as an official disinfo agent of the Israeli government in this thread. How much are they paying you?

[edit on 3-11-2010 by groingrinder]

[edit on 3-11-2010 by groingrinder]

Originally posted by groingrinder
mmiichael appears to have identified himself as an official disinfo agent of the Israeli government in this thread. How much are they paying you?

Not enough. But more than White Supremacist trailer park rednecks are offering. And I don't have to wear that stupid white robe to pick up the cheque.

The Rothschilds are really concerned the word might leak out that they thought it would be fun to use an American ship for target practice.

I'm hoping to get transferred to one of the big time media divisions in Hollywood.

Who wants to spend all their time arguing with hostile high school kids?

[edit on 11-3-2010 by mmiichael]