Survivor of USS Liberty speaks out on Fox news

reply to post by mmiichael


Hello Mmiichael,

Hope you are well

The US even opposed the creation of Israel

I wanted to ask you about this statement,I thought that the US
voted "yes" on the creation of Israel,i went and checked some links and they appear on the list of yes,was there some incident that happened where they were originally opposed it and then changed their minds?

As for all the rest of the dynamics of this conversation,i will be sitting on the sidelines...

Violet.

Edit-spelling fail



[edit on 10-3-2010 by BlackViolet]

reply to post by mmiichael

Kennedy I only repeat what every analyst has had to conclude - bad diplomat. Don't now who he pissed off to the point they wanted to take him out, but he escalated rather than defused the Cuban situation.

Which analysts? Are you talking about the ones who dedicate their lifes to smell Washingtons butt and know nothing about real life and the real world?

Because, I see that a lot of people like to pick up this "experts" in politics and diplomacy, and they are just stupid in their statements. Reading articles and stories from people who are claimed to be experts in politics is amazing, because if you have been around the world, you can see how those analysts have never left their computer, and are just talking crap from a distant and cold place. You have to analyze things in the time period, and consider all the facts around what happened. Putting Kennedy down after decades have passed, is just stupid.

It's like saying that medieval kings were bad diplomats. Different times, different context.

Kennedy wasn't a bad diplomat, he wasn't a bad president, and he handled things WAY better than most of US presidents. And you know why? Because while others are "great diplomats" under the eyes of those analysts, Kennedy made things happen, solved situations and slammed his hand against the table when he needed to.

Sorry my french, but Kennedy had the balls to act and make a stand. Unfornatly, the US government was(is) so corrupt, that a good person who makes a moral stand has nobody to protect him, and he got shot.

But have no doubt that JFK did the best thing that could be done in the Cuban Missle issue.

What do you mean "diffused"? Clinton style? Ask them to leave and offer them something, so years later they use those gifts as something to throw into the US face (you know, like the good diplomats that the US had in the 70's and 80's, the gave the money and support to groups like the Talibans)?

JFK said "you are leaving. You either choose to leave with your own ships, or in our body bags". And the USSR shuted up, putted their tails between their legs and left. Kennedy made a tremendous stand of strenght in the Cold War with that attitude.

Claiming to the contrary is just plain ignorance in the military strategy and even in politics, with all due respect.

reply to post by mmiichael

I get the impression you know nothing about 20th Century American history beyond the repeated conspiracy mantras.

There are spies from every major country in the US, just as the US has spies everywhere. Russia and China are the most insidious. Spies from supposedly allied countries like Turkey have been caught.

Of cause there a spies from every major country in the US. China has a population of 1,3 billion people. The population of Russia is now about 140 million. Both the relations to the Soviet Union and China were strained for several decades.

Israel is a country in which less than 8 million people live. Israel is supposed to be an US ally.

Here is again a link to the numerous Israelian spies caught on US soil. Can you find a source that shows that more spies have been caught from any other allied country on US soil?

Far and away the most powerful US lobby group is Saudi Arabia, which has dictated Middle East foreign policy for the past 4 decades.

Can you provide a source to back up your statement that it is Saudi Arabia not Israel, which has dictated Middle Eastern US foreign policy? I see many politicians and journalist demonstrating their eagerness in the support for Israel. I don't see many breaking a lance for Saudi Arabia. This is just an observation. Facts back up my estimation:

1. Israel has only 8 million citizens. It is nonetheless main recipient of US Foreign aid.
www.vaughns-1-pagers.com...
2. Israel, not Saudi Arabia is the country for which the USA regularly uses it's veto powers in the UN security council.
www.krysstal.com...

Here is a documentary video called 'The Israel lobby - The influence of AIPAC on US Foreign Policy', you will likely dismiss it as lunatic ravings found on an agenda-driven conspiracy website, but perhaps someone is interested and watches it.

Google Video Link

Israel was a developing country in the 60 and 70s with closer ties to France and Britain than the US. The US even opposed the creation of Israel and the Russians were their first sponsors. Mossad only went international after Palestinian terrorists murdered a dozen members of the Israeli team at the 1972 Munich Olympics.

This is not true. Even before 1972 the Mossad was active on an international basis. In 1968 the Mossad helped Israel to acquire uran for its nuclear weapons program. The Mossad sent letter-bombs to Nazi-criminals. They also caught Eichmann and transferred him to Israel. The Mossad helped to train the secret police SAVAK. Under the Shah the SAVAK executed and tortured thousands of political prisoners in Iran.
en.wikipedia.org...

Operation Susannah (1954) is just one example for Israel sponsored false flag terrorism on an international basis before 1972. Like the USS Liberty incident, Operation Susannah was unsuccessful. But its aim was perhaps a similar one - Poisoning the relations between Middle Eastern countries (except Israel of cause) and the western world. We don't know in how many similar incidents Israel was playing a deceptive game. After all a secret service tries to operate in secrecy. Being caught in the act is certainly the exception, not the rule.

It is not even conceivable Israel had any input to the JFK assassination. The ultra-Right wing White Supremacists invented this one.

For one thing there was nothing to be gained. Serious investigators like Jim Garrison, who actually went to court with his charges, have never mentioned Israel even as a remote possibility.

If you are interested in this period I recommend reading books by people who were there and have done primary research and not depend on lunatic ravings found on agenda-driven conspiracy websites and Youtube.

I initiated my idea “Since this is a conspiracy site, I like also to throw in a wild theory.” Nothing more. The fact that Kennedy unlike the traitorous LBJ was an obstacle for Israels leaders on their way to the nuclear bomb cannot only be found on conspiracy websites. Here is an excerpt (emphasize mine) from a paper written by Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army. The paper was written for the USAF Counterproliferation Center:

President Johnson was less emphatic about nonproliferation than President Kennedy-or perhaps had more pressing concerns, such as Vietnam. He had a long history of both Jewish friends and pressing political contributors coupled with some first hand experience of the Holocaust, having toured concentration camps at the end of World War II.51 Israel pressed him hard for aircraft (A-4E Skyhawks initially and F-4E Phantoms later) and obtained agreement in 1966 under the condition that the aircraft would not be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The State Department attempted to link the aircraft purchases to continued inspection visits. President Johnson overruled the State Department concerning Dimona inspections.52 Although denied at the time, America delivered the F-4Es, on September 5, 1969, with nuclear capable hardware intact.53

www.au.af.mil...

You have attacked me, but failed to answer my initinal 2 questions and explained LBJs traitorous behaviour. You also have felt no need to back up any of your claims by sources. While the approach to send other users to find information for themselves is a reasonable one, it is dishonest to make a definite claim, which is not backed by facts (Mossad only went international after Palestinian terrorists murdered a dozen members of the Israeli team at the 1972 Munich Olympics).

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Drunkenshrew]

Here's some quotes from some US presidents regarding Israel.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

How about this....

I had faith in Israel before it was established, I have faith in it now. (Granting de facto recognition to the new Jewish State—11 minutes after Israel's proclamation of independence)

11 Minutes!! whoa! Harry that was fast. Dare I mention the Kabbalistic significance of the number? Nah.

From JFK.....

This nation, from the time of President Woodrow Wilson, has established and continued a tradition of friendship with Israel because we are committed to all free societies that seek a path to peace and honor individual right. We seek peace and prosperity for all of the Middle East firm in our belief that a new spirit of comity in that important part of the world would serve the highest aspirations and interests of all nations. In the prophetic spirit of Zionism all free men today look to a better world and in the experience of Zionism we know that it takes courage and perseverance and dedication to achieve it.

Israel was not created in order to disappear—Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom.

We support the security of both Israel and her neighbors.... (Statement on May 8, 1963)

So what's up with the US and Israel? It's really quite bizzarre. Those comments from JFK are a surprise to me. What can I say? Umm really John?

"The prophetic spirit of Zionism" What the....

Originally posted by BlackViolet

The US even opposed the creation of Israel

I wanted to ask you about this statement,I thought that the US
voted "yes" on the creation of Israel,i went and checked some links and they appear on the list of yes,was there some incident that happened where they were originally opposed it and then changed their minds?

The US State Dept and Secretary of State George C Marshall opposed the recognition of Israel but President Truman was reluctantly convinced to accept it in 1948.

Israel was perceived as a client and potential satellite of the Soviet Union in the early 50s. This coincided with the US fearing Iran's influence by the Soviets.

Still smarting from their unsuccessful attempt to invade and destroy Israel it's first days of existence, Egypt and the Saudis pressured the US to withhold support of Israel. There were crises in mid-50s including the Suez Canal disputes in which the US took a strong adversarial position to Israel in favour of Egypt.

The current levels of co-operation only started in the 60s.

This USS Liberty was apparently a false flag attempt, which had it succeed it would have drawn the US into a middle east war against Israel's enemy Egypt. Who were against Egypt's holding claim to the SUEZ CANAL which they had attempted to prevent in 1954.

This Modus Operandi of false flags by the Israelis first began back in 1954, with the Lavon Affair. Where IDF operatives set up spy CELLS in Egypt to bomb British and US interests there who would naturally blame Egypt. This was the original false flag operation by Israel.

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mike Mullin was the first US Official to even mention the USS Liberty.

AND in what context did he mention it ?

When warning Israel about attempting to draw the US into a war with Iran.

He had said, "If you think about perpetrating a little provocation, say in the Persian Gulf, don't even think about it, For We Know what happened on June 8 1967 and it AINT gonna happen AGAIN. You hear me ?!"

Was Israel affiliated with the Kennedy assassination ?

We will never know for sure, but what we DO know is that less than 6 month's prior to JFK's assassination in November 1963, that on June 4, 1963, Kennedy signed a monumental decree, Executive Order 11110, which essentially put the FEDERAL RESERVE out of business of lending money to the US Govt. with interest.

JFK's successor , Lyndon Baines Johnson, pulled the "Silver Certificates" out of circulation AND 1964 was the last year that silver coinage, for circulation purposes was ever minted in the United States as well.

Knowing the association between the owners of the FEDERAL RESERVE , the European Banking Cabal and the ZIONISTS.
Whom funded and provided the land to the State of Israel.

Simply follow the money as well as who would have had the most to lose had JFK's Executive Order been implemented.

reply to post by Silver Shadow


Over the last few weeks I have been dumbfounded numerous times as I have learned about the number of high-ranking officials in the US government with dual Israeli citizenship AND the number of Israeli owned companies contracted to handle sensitive information processing services to the U.S.

It is becoming increasingly apparent why so many countries accuse th U.S. Of being an Iraeli lackey. I used to dismiss such claims as bitterness of our close relationship with a trusted ally.

My opinion of our "alliance" is rapidly changing. This morning's news highlighted the announcement by Israel that they are moving forward with more settlements in disputed areas during VP Biden's visit to discuss peace with Palestinians.

Talk about a bitch slap in the face to Biden. It is as if they are begging for a war and telling the world that our "alliance" is very one-sided.

I never thought I would feel this way about Israel. I wonder how long it will take for other people to think this way?

Originally posted by zarp3333

I never thought I would feel this way about Israel. I wonder how long it will take for other people to think this way?

The tide is now rapidly turning against Israel. The Zionist Illuminati with their web of corruption and lies, and their plans for world domination are now collapsing. It is not going well for them.

The key to it was the control of the international banking system and world media, and the use of the US military to destroy any enemies of Israel.
Another key is the control of the numerous corrupt secret societies. That is now their last bastion of strength, and is still of some real concern.

But it is the internet that has been the biggest single factor in shaking people out of their uninformed complacency.
A free worldwide communications system between ordinary thinking people that the Zionists have absolutely no control over.

One thing the Zionists just cannot tolerate is the truth, and the internet is opening up the whole stinking affair to the closest of scrutiny.

As the pressure continues to builds against these Zionists, they will make more mistakes. Time is fast running out.........




[edit on 10/3/2010 by Silver Shadow]

reply to post by squiz


"Israel was not created in order to disappear—Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."

funniest thing I've ever read! Israel kills Palestinians like dogs and leaves them out in the street to die.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Why didn't America punish Israel?

How low do you have to go to let somebody attack you.

Why?

Answer: Israels powerful lobby called AIPAC see recent videos by ex Cong John Traficant

Kennedy knew how dangerous LBJ was... that is why he chose to keep his enemy close...google LBJ Kennedy Ramparts Magazine

Originally posted by BlackViolet

I wanted to ask you about this statement,I thought that the US
voted "yes" on the creation of Israel,i went and checked some links and they appear on the list of yes,was there some incident that happened where they were originally opposed it and then changed their minds?

I grew up in DC, and an old fellow who would know related this story, he told me this...that Truman opposed the UN Resolutions supporting Israel, but then Sec of State George C Marshall put it this way to Truman... and said,"Harry, do you want them to come live here?"

To the pro Israeli lobby guys here, don't tar and feather me with the anti-semitic paint brush, in the same manner that AIPAC and ADL will tar and feather anyone who opposes Zionism or for that matter anyone who opposes paying money, US Tax money, subsidies, etc TO Israel...which I do...

I have no problem with Jews or Judaism, or even scientologists, I am an equal opportunity discriminator... I only have problems with those individuals of religions fake, real or none, who profit from lies.

And Israel did commit an act of war upon the united states in attacking the USS Liberty.

American Free Press newspaper (and before it The Spotlight) were the only newspapers in America we know of to expose the facts about this brutal and wanton attack before the truth was aired on the Discovery Channel more than 30 years after the event

LINK

• Stan White: “I stepped out on deck, and a plane came by, and I looked right in the cockpit. He waved. I waved. That’s how close they were. They knew who we were.”

• Even-Tov (one of the Israeli Pilots) told McCloskey that he had immediately recognized the Liberty as an American vessel and radioed that information to his headquarters, but was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

• Joe Meadors: “My only job during the attack was to make sure that the flag was flying; so every few minutes I would walk out to the signal bridge up at the mast.”

Remember the Liberty!

[edit on 10-3-2010 by seataka]

Originally posted by Tifozi

Kennedy wasn't a bad diplomat, he wasn't a bad president, and he handled things WAY better than most of US presidents. And you know why? Because while others are "great diplomats" under the eyes of those analysts, Kennedy made things happen, solved situations and slammed his hand against the table when he needed to.

Sorry my french, but Kennedy had the balls to act and make a stand. Unfornatly, the US government was(is) so corrupt, that a good person who makes a moral stand has nobody to protect him, and he got shot.

But have no doubt that JFK did the best thing that could be done in the Cuban Missle issue.

This is not the time and place to fully argue the merits of Kennedy. Foreign policy is critical to national security and that may have been Kennedy's fatal flaw. Domestically he was a reformer and that was what was needed. I liked the guy a lot. No way of knowing how someone else would have handled the unusual situation, but on reexamination it is thought by many historians that Kennedy fumbled the ball badly with Cuba.

Kennedy has become so mythologized it's hard to argue now that he was far from perfect. Well-intentioned and assertive for sure, but that doesn't make his every decision above criticism.

Bobby was smarter. It's too bad he was taken out just as he was going to announce his candidacy. Now that's a REAL CONSPIRACY that should be looked at again.








[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

It's amazing that some people still believe credibility implies truth. The truth more often than not is incredible. All the survivors have been interviewed and NOT ONE SINGLE SAILOR believes it was an accident. Yet the debunkers just won't give up. Well, it's they, not the "truthers", who dishonor the memories of everyone who died by perpetuating the LIES our government told.

This starts off with the "official story" and is then followed by literally DOZENS of first-hand and eyewitness accounts of people who are absolutely CERTAIN it was a false flag operation. If they got away with it once, when America was a lot more free, they can certainly do it again, in this fascist police state that we've become.










[edit on 10-3-2010 by Crito]

Originally posted by Crito
It's amazing that some people still believe credibility implies truth. The truth more often than not is incredible. All the survivors have been interviewed and NOT ONE SINGLE SAILOR believes it was an accident. Yet the debunkers just won't give up. Well, it's they, not the "truthers", who dishonor the memories of everyone who died by perpetuating the LIES our government told.

Heavily prepped and prompted these old guys say they believe an investigation would be a good thing.

But thanks for letting us now where all this disinfo originates. "Storm" is a buzzword in case you didn't know.

If you bother to look at the credits at the end this is a production by Tito Howard, a known player in the White Supremacist movement.

I can't provide a link to Stormfront, the probable initiators and funding source, as ATS does not allow linkage to this Neo-Nazi site.

Some ATS members will swallow any swill online.

Here's a quick reference to this Neo-Nazi documentary maker on a non-participating discussion board.

74.125.93.132...:EWugzuad_goJ:www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-12941-p-9.html+%22tito+howard%22+stormfront&cd=11&hl=en&c t=clnk&gl=ca

Carto HAD some real military ties and not just Col. McCrary. He also had a group around the sinking of the USS Liberty in 1967.

There was a guy named Tito deNagy Howard who was close to Carto, and also involved with Admiral Moorer. Tito Howard also spent a lot of time in the Middle East.

And we know that Col L. Fletcher Prouty also had curious ties both to Carto and to Scientology for that matter. He also reportedly signed some document claiming that LaRouche was being framed by the government.

[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]

Your anti-Aryan and anti-Arab racism is duly noted. I just wish ATS showed as much intolerance for Zionist propaganda as they do for other purveyors of disinformation. I guess everyone interviewed for this documentary must be an antisemite. That's the only reasonable explanation.

Originally posted by Crito
Your anti-Aryan and anti-Arab racism is duly noted. I just wish ATS showed as much intolerance for Zionist propaganda as they do for other purveyors of disinformation. I guess everyone interviewed for this documentary must be an antisemite. That's the only reasonable explanation.

I try to expose where people are being fed malicious propaganda.

I have nothing against Muslims, Iranians (living with one right now) or anyone in particular. I have no time for White Supremacists, Neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klanners, Vicious Ayatollahs and Imams, and other vile disseminators of hatred.

But you're willing to immediately take them at their word as soon as they present anti-Israel propaganda - right?

Guess that says it all.

One question,, perhaps we can agree one thing...

Do you, as I do, have a serious problem with those who profit from lies?

"But the moment eloquence or the language of debate enters, true reasoning becomes impossible. For the purpose of the debater is not to find the truth but to win the argument, and to this end he will often stray as far as possible from the real issues"

"Eloquence and debate are designed, not to decide issues, but to sway people, for this reason they lean heavily on appeals to emotion and prejudice, and make use of neat, clever, and sometimes humorous turns of phrase rather than profound analysis of ideas"

"Of all this Confucious was contemptuous" Confucious by H. G. Creel (c)1949 Chapter "The teacher"

[edit on 10-3-2010 by seataka]

Originally posted by seataka


One question,, perhaps we can agree one thing...

Do you, as I do, have a serious problem with those who profit from lies?

Assuming you're addressing me. Not an easy question to give a non-glib response to.

The issue here - governments lie sometimes. It's right that they do in certain circumstances. One does not want to tip of listening ears to what one is really up to. So you make up a story.

Unless you're still in Sunday School you come to realize truth is a slippery commodity.

People carry on discreet romances and lie about it. Companies convince the public their product is better than it really is. People misinform the government about their real income, uses evasion tactics to avoid taxes. Alcoholics, drug addicts, lie about their dependencies. Children lie to their parents. People say they're in love when they aren't, and on and on.

It's part of living like it or not. Everyone lies at some time.

My own guideline is that mistruths are acceptable when they don't cause much damage harm, or pain.

reply to post by mmiichael


Really? This link is your proof that Tito Howard is a white supremacist? But then I remember you used the term also in the post which was adressed to me. I urge everyone to just google Tito Howard and do their own fact checking. You can add the key words white supremacist. Better just listen, to what the man has to say. Besides mmiichael the ADLseems to be the only source, which accuses Tito Howard to be a white supremacist. I wonder why?

Originally posted by Drunkenshrew
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Really? This link is your proof that Tito Howard is a white supremacist? But then I remember you used the term also in the post which was adressed to me. I urge everyone to just google Tito Howard and do their own fact checking. You can add the key words white supremacist. Better just listen, to what the man has to say. Besides mmiichael the ADLseems to be the only source, which accuses Tito Howard to be a white supremacist. I wonder why?

There's life beyond Google.

And maybe learn to read. I said you can check this out at Stormfront discussion board and other friendly White Supremacist sources. ATS blocks links to their site. You'll find good company.

Check out America's favourite Neo-Nazi, David Duke, he's a big supporter of Howard and his ilk.

Of course anyone that disagrees with the Klu Klux Klan labeled a Zionist/ADL/Mossad.

Great assembly of deep political analysts here.




[edit on 10-3-2010 by mmiichael]