What I am postulating here, is that collectivism, has failed again.

I like to think that the founding fathers of the U.S. were very smart men.

But the more and more I think about it, they just had common sense.

Think about it this way.

Let us say you have a system, any type, and it could be for anything.

If you have interconnected components that are dependent in one system and in the other non-interconnected components [color=yellow]that are not dependent.[/yellow]

In the collectivism system, if a component gets sick or cannot survive it can weaken or destroy the whole system.

Where in the other individualistic system, if a component gets sick or cannot survive, the system barely feels it or is injured only very slightly.


Now look at what has happened at this time. The interconnected societies are the most hurt. The EU is really struggling. The US is hurting. Other countries that are tied to us are hurting.

But what about the ones that are not? Not so bad.

Common sense and logic requires us to decide to return to our roots that are forefather's saw was the only way to survive in a peaceful and stable community.

Constitutional Libertarianism. Return to the Representative Republic we once had.


It is common sense and logical.

edit to clarify better
thanks Toromos

[edit on 3/9/2010 by endisnighe]

What do you call collectivism ?
Economical collectivism ? Where do you see economical collectivism in the US or in the EU ? Collectivism abolishes private property.
Every country in the world has been hurt by the crisis because every country in the world is part of the gigantic financial system.
Can you name only one not interconnected society ? What does it even mean ? Who is not struggling ? Why do you think the EU is really struggling ? Where do you see collectivism in the EU ? Last time I checked, the EU had big corps.
That's a very large amount of unsubstanciated allegations in one OP.

Think of your family as a collectivity. One sick family member may weaken the whole "economical" efficiency of the family. Alone, he would maybe die.
It'a a matter of priority, what community you want and what goals you aim for.

I don't advocate the abolition of private property at all but demonising every form of "mutual aid" social structure is extreme to me.
We can achieve higher goals by cooperation. Isn't that obvious to you in your day-to-day life ?
You seem impenetrable to any kind of welfare by dogma.

I don't see any common sense in your observation of the political representation system and the economical system. Besides, I don't even understand what is an individualistic system. What is an individualistic bank ?

Originally posted by endisnighe
Look at what is spreading with the EU, the banking crisis is spreading throughout the system.

Look at the US, the system is crashing, no matter that the ostriches have their heads in the sand.

These too big to fail components are all interconnected. All one has to do is open the eyes and see, viruses spread. If you do not let the individuals that are weak fail, the whole system can come down.

Then, it's not collectivism, it's global systems.

In a global system, crisis will spread.

Okay everyone, I think I did not write this long enough. I should have expanded it quite a bit further.

Sorry for wasting your peoples time.

I will try again later. Everyone's points are legitimate. I just did not put everything I was thinking down.

I should have been more articulate with my thoughts.

Thanks for pointing out my problems with my thread. Everyone.

MODS PLEASE CLOSE THREAD

[edit on 3/9/2010 by endisnighe]

I just posted something on my facebook that I really thought long and hard about concerning this ...
The only thing yall may not like about it is it does come from MY POINT OF VIEW according to what I (notice I ) believe from a biblical perspective .
The one thing I noticed when I was writing it and thinking on it I sure could see similarities between our Country and the Israelites situations.

We came out from among the System (Britain) and were starting anew alot like they did with people appointed to sort of keeps things going smooth (Our forefathers ) but it wasnt good enough and people hollered for A KING (President) to rule over them ...and so here we are .

Anyway here is my post .

Do we really have a say on who becomes our King (Earthly Rulers) ?Do we want any part of this worldly system ?

Read this verse first
Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Did you know that man can actually set up Kings without it being Gods will ?
Hsa 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [it] not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

The Israelites wanted a ruler over them (A King or President in modern day speaking) ..and so they complained to Samuel to send them a King (they were replacing the Lord God as their King )

1Sa 12:1 ¶ And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.
1Sa 12:2 And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons [are] with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood unto this day.
1Sa 12:3 Behold, here I [am]: witness against me before the LORD, and before his anointed: whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received [any] bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you.
1Sa 12:4 And they said, Thou hast not defrauded us, nor oppressed us, neither hast thou taken ought of any man's hand.
1Sa 12:5 And he said unto them, The LORD [is] witness against you, and his anointed [is] witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand. And they answered, [He is] witness.
1Sa 12:12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God [was] your king.

1Sa 12:13 Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, [and] whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.

1Sa 12:14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
1Sa 12:15 But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as [it was] against your fathers.
Notice they got their wish ...Now this wasnt a good thing at all ..see below what happens because they asked for a King even ....

1Sa 12:19 ¶ And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins [this] evil, to ask us a king.

1Sa 12:20 And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart;
1Sa 12:21 And turn ye not aside: for [then should ye go] after vain [things], which cannot profit nor deliver; for they [are] vain.
1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
1Sa 12:23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:
1Sa 12:24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great [things] he hath done for you.

Below is the outcome .....
1Sa 12:25 But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.

And why was that the outcome ? Because they wanted a MAN to RULE them,keep them safe from everything (Other Nations coming to war with them etc) ... and they would rather go by what Man wanted to do instead of what GOD layed out for them (the law and the levitical rules etc ).
Going MANS WAY instead of Gods way
1Sa 12:21 And turn ye not aside: for [then should ye go] after vain [things], which cannot profit nor deliver; for they [are] vain.


Seriously think about it ...Can we (mankind) change this world for the better through voting in our Kings (who are definately men of the world and the world system which at this time belong to the king of this world (the devil) at least till Christ comes and takes this earthly kingdom from him .)

Is there Christlike people in office ? Sure there are ....but are they gonna be able to make a difference in THIS worldly earthly Kingdom if it is heading for a One World AntiChrist system only to be taken back by Jesus Christ (we cant take back the world for Christ all we can do is bring in INDIVIDUAL people into the KINGDOM that is to come when Christ comes back ) .The bible says only JESUS and his ANGELS when they come back will fight the RULERS OF THIS WORLD and principalities who rule behind them. ....And we bring INDIVIDUALS IN by being an example ..Of a SPIRITUAL PEOPLE who do not LOVE THIS WORLD nor are they OF this world (although they are in it they are not partaking of its wickedness nor are they partaking of the EARTHLY SYSTEMS which includes GOVERNMENTS)>

Because this is what the bible says about the Governments of this world ..
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Here is the message the Lord has for those in power .
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

So is our battle with these Kings of the world ....and will fighting politically to change things actually change it for the better ? I dont believe it will
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

The next question is should we get involved in what is Ceasars (This world system is of Ceasar no matter how you look at it) ....or no ?Are we of THIS WORLD or are we waiting for and hoping for and praying for the coming world where man will not be KING but JESUS CHRIST will be our KING ....
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Just food for thought ....not trying to get anything stirred up (well ok maybe just a little lol)


Notice one more thing in the above verses ..
1Sa 12:12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God [was] your king.

They GOT VERY AFRAID of what was going on with wars coming at them etc ...(TERROR ATTACKS ) ..... and instead of asking the Lord God to protect them and go before them (being ruler and leader ) they cried for a MAN LEADER INSTEAD to protect and lead them .
... See More
This is what has happened in our days ...
And the same will happen to us as did them ..(it did not go well with them ) .
We beg for Government,Armies,weapons etc to PROTECT AND GIVE US PEACE (asking for peace and security from mankind) instead of asking GOD for that peace and security.

This is how satan recieves his power ...from each of you who give him all that power by trusting in his ways (mans ways )(Weapons and Armies and manmade inventions etc) ..Instead of trusting God and giving him more control of our world (we give that control to mankind instead of God).
God wont go over our free will ..and it has been our free will to have a KING (MANKIND RULER) or have a KING CHRIST JESUS to rule our lives in the here and now as well as the world to come.....And we just like the Israelites voted instead to have MAN RULER over us ..
And it will end badly for us just like it did Israel..Their kings drug them into the world ways ...and therefor almost completely destroyed them ....(at least till Jesus deals with them once again face to face begging them to come back to him during the trib) .......


TO THOSE WHO DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE or the Lord Jesus and the end times etc .and may get DEFENSIVE over this post .....JUST MOVE ALONG THEN .....what else can I say .lol ....

Sorry my post was so long,and sorry if it is getting off topic, I dont think it is ..but some may take it off topic once they read my post .........but this post reminded me as to why I posted what I did ...because I thought about this just this morning ..


[edit on 9-3-2010 by Simplynoone]

Scenario: You are sharing a kitchen with 20 other people. This includes full cooking equipment. You notice a few people have bought their own dish soap, but realize most won't. It doesn't take two days before a huge mountain of old, unwashed dishes prides the sink. In short: there's no shared dish soap, so people simply take the easy way out and leave their things to rot.

Argument: You realize this won't work in the long-term, so you suggest the idea that all people put up an equal sum of money to buy a big bottle of dish soap to be shared collectively. That way, you argue, there will be a practical incentive for everyone to make their dishes, and you can worry about studies, girls and beer instead.

Can you figure out the pitfalls, including the logical fallacies, of this argument?