Why Didn't Jesus Write The Bible?

In the gospels, Jesus refers to different "Ages," which are in fact the divisions that constitute the Precession of the Equinoxes. As Moses was created to usher in the Age of Aries (Aries, the Age of the Lamb/Ram that replaced the Age of Taurus due to the Precession of the Equinoxes), so was Jesus to serve as the Avatar of the Age of Pisces, which is evident from the abundant fish imagery used throughout the gospel tale (Pisces replaces Aries in the procession of the equinoxes). This Zodiacal connection has been so suppressed that people with the fish symbol on the back of their cars have no idea what it stands for a Constellation, although they are fallaciously told it represents "ICHTHYS," an anagram for "Jesus Christ, Son of god, Savior," when in reality the "ichthys" is the Greek word for fish. On a similar note the residual symbols of the previous Age of Aries can be found in the "Lamb" designations of Jesus, including the "Agnus Dei," or "Lamb of god."

Answer for yourself: And why is this? We find that as one Age end and another begin after each 2,160 years of time there is a period of overlap in this transition. This explains why previous symbolisms carry over into the following Age.

Answer for yourself: Are you aware that the "Jesus" character of the New Testament was well aware of Astronomy and in particular the "Precession of the Equinox"?

Amazingly Jesus speaks about the Astronomical phenomena called the Precession of the Equinox or the change of the Ages (a time period of 2,160 years where a particular Constellation rules the Vernal Equinox) when he says to the disciples, who are asking about how to prepare for the "passover":

"Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters . . ." (Lk. 22:10)

Answer for yourself: What should we have noticed in the above verse? First of all women, not men, carried water pitchers for this was the work of women and not men. The "male" symbolism is a "key" that we are speaking of the masculine "water bearer" in the Sky connected to the Constellation of Aquarius. This famous yet enigmatic passage refers to the "house" or Age of Aquarius, the "Water-Bearer", and Jesus is instructing his disciples that after his death and the end of the Age they, as his followers, are to "pass-over" into it as well. Furthermore, the Precession of the Equinox happens in reverse order to that of the zodiac, in the zodiac the next sign after pisces would be aries so 'Jesus' got it right when he was telling his desciples to follow a man bearing a pitcher of water (Aquarius). This would prove that the Gospels are indeed based upon the Zodiac.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Ricklett]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Ricklett]

I believe he was more into writing romance novels. His first was "Me and Maggie". His second was "Run like Hell".

Hi Ricklett -

Apparently R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (BCE 12 to CE 36) was 'on the lam' after the Sanhedrin had passed a resolution against him 'in absentia' a few months earlier, so this Iesous person had to meet 'secretly' to celebrate Pesach in Jerusalem.

See the 4th canonicalcouncil approved Greek Gospel ('John' whoever he was) chapter 11:46-55

"And it happened that some people ran to the Pharasim and told them what he was doing:

And they convened a meeting of the[ir] Sanhedrin; some stood up and said, behold, this man is performing Signs and Wonders, so why are we meeting to arrest him? And others said, If we do not put a stop to this man, all the people will begin to follow him and the Romans will come and destroy our Temple and our whole nation. And Yosef Kaiphah addressed the Sanhedrin saying....it would be better that one single man should be put to death than the whole country destroyed...and from that day they voted the death penalty against him, and it IS FOR THAT REASON that IESOUS COULD NO LONGER MOVE AROUND IN PUBLIC AMONG THE JUDAENS (i.e. in the Jerusalem area), and thus he went north to Ephraim with his disciples and remained there. And Pesach drew near, and the chief priests asked one another, What do you think, will he come to the feast [in Jerusalem] this year? For they had passed a resolution to have him arrested if he should show himself in public in Jerusalem...'

It seems that (given the limitations of the gospel material and their writer's limited knowledge of 1st century Roman Occupied Judaea prior to the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome in 66-72 CE) some of the gospel material seems to hint that he knew the 'jig was up' and that his arrest was imminent.

Whoever was the source for the 4th Gospel (John the Elder, one of the 70?) he seems to have details at times in his pericopes which deal around the Jerusalem area which are more 'historically viable' than e.g. Mark's gospel which was written by someone whose geography of Palestine was a lot more sketchy.

So we can see why he wwould have to resort to hidden signals for his disciples during Passover (spy like disciples carrying pitchers (instead of women) at the gate of Jerusalem being told to act as marks for his disciples to follow them to secret hiding places etc.)

We recall the Gayith Shemaneh (Geth-Semaneh) the Olive Press which was a cave where they met in the dark when he was arrested - clearly in hiding...

Later disciples would have treated this whole thing as a fulfillment of prophecy i.e. using an Aramaic targum Midrash on Lamentations of Jeremiah chapter 4:18 'Behold, our days are numbered, we can no longer walk in the open' - which they would apply to their teacher...as was the case with so many OT verses.

But no need to bring Astrology or Aquarius into the mix - although Greeks and others in the earliest churches would often do this with their Mystery religions - and the Mysteries of Christ were certainly seen by some to be yet another one of about 30 circulating in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD in the Roman Empire (cf. the Mysteries of Isis, the Mysteries of Mithras, the Mysteries of Hapi-Wusir (Serapis), the Mysteries of Dyonisius &tc.

Here is the larger quote from one Aramaic Targum version (of many versions of Lamentations, ncluding the Masoretic Text, the Hebrew consonantal underlay 'Vorlag' to the Greek Septuaginta OT, Symmachus, Aquila or Theodotion, all of which are slightly different ) which lay at the base of the Midrashic 'expansion' (i.e. hagaddic legends) used as OT source material for the idea of the 'Messiah in hiding in the Last Days' which lay behind the Johanine pericope about being arrested in absentia,

Not also the clear reference to the Ingathering of the Exiles Scattered among the Goyim (gentiles) which is also mentioned in the same proof text extracted from the text of Lamentations chapter 4:16-20 that we see in the 4th canonical Greek Gospel.

You will also note that 'John' does not explicitly / specifically list it preceded by his usual OT verse quote- fulfillment formula ('this was done to fulfil what was written': &tc.);

But you'll notice if you read the text closely with your OT near you and look up each verse for key words (i.e. midrashic sources) the 4 Greek council approved Gospels tend only to bring to the attention of the audience (since the gospels were 'read in the churches i.e. orally) specific OT verses at certain times i.e. 'explicitly' - but the majority are not introduced as such - even though it is clear that practically EVERY verse of every gospel in the Greeek canon is a Midrashic expansion of an OT verse - (especially the Book of Revelation) although the writers seem to tire of explicitly mentioning the OT source references in the text...

This might be because of the break of the Christians in the 2nd century AD with Judaeism, at a time that intimate knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures was waning among Christians, who knows why they did not introduce the source material - but the Midrashic references are clear nontheless throughout every verse in all the gospels in terms of the actual vocabulary and subject matter in the OT source texts - waaaaay too close for mere co-incidence)..

Here's an example of what lay behind 'John' chapter 11:45-57 which is midrashically expanded from the OT verses in Lamentations chapter 4:16-20 (here is the fuller text)

In that Day, the Anger YHWH will divide their Council:

He shall no more smell their sacrifices
they cannot help their priests nor support their Elders.

As for us, our eyes have failed us:
We watch continually in vain for a Nation that will never save us.

[Our Enemies] hunt our every step,
Yea we cannot walk openly in our streets:
Our End is near,
Our days are fulfilled;
Our End is come.

Yea, our Persecutors are swifter than the Eagles of heaven:
they pursue us on the mountains,
They laid wait for us in the deserts.

In that Day the Breath of our Nostrils,
even the Messiah of YHWH
Will be arrested by their devices:

It is he of whom we said,
Under his Shadow we are forced to live scattered
Even among the Goyim.

The pity of course is that most modern day persons who style themselves 'Christians' cannot read Hebrew or Aramaic and are not familiar with the OT texts from which their gospel midrashim have been extracted...

Which is very curioius, since 'iesous' and his original followers were all (Galilean) 'Jews' of the 1st century living under Roman Occupation in the 1st century, reading and studying their OT scriptures day and night (like Dead Sea Scroll covenanters at Qumran) waiting and hoping and hoping and waiting for their Messiah to save them from Roman Occipation and return their Exiles (diaspora Jews) back to Jerusalem in the 'last days' (see trito-Isaiah chapters 56-66 for this concept of the Return)

reply to post by hippomchippo


It makes sense to him or her. all these "do it yourself" pepole do not understand that research is to be shared; they think it is some sort of superspiritual journey on which you can only be guided vaguely.

Originally posted by Ricklett
In the gospels, Jesus refers to different "Ages," which are in fact the divisions that constitute the Precession of the Equinoxes. As Moses was created to usher in the Age of Aries (Aries, the Age of the Lamb/Ram that replaced the Age of Taurus due to the Precession of the Equinoxes), so was Jesus to serve as the Avatar of the Age of Pisces, which is evident from the abundant fish imagery used throughout the gospel tale (Pisces replaces Aries in the procession of the equinoxes). This Zodiacal connection has been so suppressed that people with the fish symbol on the back of their cars have no idea what it stands for a Constellation, although they are fallaciously told it represents "ICHTHYS," an anagram for "Jesus Christ, Son of god, Savior," when in reality the "ichthys" is the Greek word for fish. On a similar note the residual symbols of the previous Age of Aries can be found in the "Lamb" designations of Jesus, including the "Agnus Dei," or "Lamb of god."

Answer for yourself: And why is this? We find that as one Age end and another begin after each 2,160 years of time there is a period of overlap in this transition. This explains why previous symbolisms carry over into the following Age.

Answer for yourself: Are you aware that the "Jesus" character of the New Testament was well aware of Astronomy and in particular the "Precession of the Equinox"?

Amazingly Jesus speaks about the Astronomical phenomena called the Precession of the Equinox or the change of the Ages (a time period of 2,160 years where a particular Constellation rules the Vernal Equinox) when he says to the disciples, who are asking about how to prepare for the "passover":

"Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters . . ." (Lk. 22:10)

Answer for yourself: What should we have noticed in the above verse? First of all women, not men, carried water pitchers for this was the work of women and not men. The "male" symbolism is a "key" that we are speaking of the masculine "water bearer" in the Sky connected to the Constellation of Aquarius. This famous yet enigmatic passage refers to the "house" or Age of Aquarius, the "Water-Bearer", and Jesus is instructing his disciples that after his death and the end of the Age they, as his followers, are to "pass-over" into it as well. Furthermore, the Precession of the Equinox happens in reverse order to that of the zodiac, in the zodiac the next sign after pisces would be aries so 'Jesus' got it right when he was telling his desciples to follow a man bearing a pitcher of water (Aquarius). This would prove that the Gospels are indeed based upon the Zodiac.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Ricklett]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by Ricklett]

You didn't put the lines before that LK quote,
22:7-9 states the following: "Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, 'Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it.' They said to Him, 'Where do You want us to prepare it?'
So, they were speaking of where their next meal would be, not where the next passover would be.
You also claim the age of the ram took place 2150 BC to 1 AD, correct?
Problem is, the earliest dates scholars have given for Exodus is 650 years AFTER the age began, a bit late to usher in a new age, eh?

[edit on 11-3-2010 by hippomchippo]

Gday,m

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Of course as the original disciples and apostoloi of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (Gk. Iesous)

What original disciples and apostles?

There is NO evidence that ANYONE ever met Jesus.

We don't have a SINGLE genuine claim to have met Jesus (just ONE forgery in 2 Peter.)

Nor do we have any evidence of anyone who ever met Mary, Joseph, Nicodemus, Martha, Lazarus etc !


The evidence shows a VAST gulf between :

* those IN the stories who allegedly met Jesis
and
* those who WROTE the stories.

The people IN the stories left NO historical evidence at all.

The later people who WROTE the stories never met ANYONE IN the stories.

It's all myth.
Jesus never existed.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by Ricklett
In the gospels, Jesus refers to different "Ages," which are in fact the divisions that constitute the Precession of the Equinoxes. As Moses was created to usher in the Age of Aries

Really?
What is the evidence for that ?

Originally posted by Ricklett
so was Jesus to serve as the Avatar of the Age of Pisces,

According to who?

Originally posted by Ricklett
Amazingly Jesus speaks about the Astronomical phenomena called the Precession of the Equinox or the change of the Ages (a time period of 2,160 years where a particular Constellation rules the Vernal Equinox) when he says to the disciples, who are asking about how to prepare for the "passover":

"Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters . . ." (Lk. 22:10)

Pardon?
Are you actually claiming that this :
"Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters . . ."

is a reference to the precession of the equinoxes?

Seriously?


K.

I always find it amusing when Christians claim that their goal is to "be like Jesus." Because in order to do that, you have to at the very least become extremely skilled in astrology, demon casting, and necromancy. They're highlighted all through the New Testament, with Jesus and the Apostles apparently using demon casting in particular to support themselves. Yet most mainstream contemporary churches really frown on these practices. They really ought to have classes in astrology and demon casting (maybe not communicating with or raising the dead) in every church basement.

It would keep the kids interested.

Hi Kapyong

I fully agree with scholarship when it tries to show (through comparative literature in the ancient world, and even up to fairly modern times) how grossly improbable ‘legendary accretions’ tend to stick to certain persons after they are dead -- when they can'tdefend themselves or correct errors in their history.

And the canonical Greek gospel material (whoever wrote them & whenever they were written & how many times they were re-edited / altered) show every evidence of 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand handling of their source materials and for being guilty of what scholars call ‘legendary over-painting’.

So in many ways the so-called CHRIST OF FAITH as sometimes depicted here and there in the Greek council approved Canonical Gospel material and in the Pauline correspondence etc. could rightly be labelled Pure Myth (that is, the personage allegedly being depicted as walking on water or feeding 5,000 men with a couple of loaves and some fish, or a Daviddic Messiah born of a sinless Virgin , or a god-man who miraculously changes water into wine at Weddings or who was worshipped by Persian Magoi as a baby, or who raises his friends from the dead or who ascends into heaven bodily after they are put to death etc.).

But generally underneath any mythological accretions, there exists a smaller less legenday person - fully human and living as wel do a human life among other terran humans on this insignificant planet in time & space (although the Greek words placed into this person’s mouth in the Greek council approved Canonical Gospel material were certainly NOT ‘taken from dictation’ despite the middle eastern penchant for memorization (for one thing they were written down in foreign language than the original oral stories about him) and these foreign language writings could well represent the words of more than one individual e.g. John the Baptist’s words may have been placed into R. Yehoshua’s mouth in places - which might account for some inconsistencies of tone that we find here and there in the Greek texts vis a vis the Greek placed into his mouth).

In other words, the vast majority of modern critical scholars who have studied in depth the material such as we have it in the post-failed Jewish Revolt against Rome Greek Gospel traditions, do not deny that there existed an historical flesh & blood person underneath the myth-making (who ate &shat & farted & pissed & snored a& did all those OTHER things adult males do which we will not mention here – there are ladies present !).

This stems from what biblical scholars call the CRITERION of EMBARRASMENT - that if you’re going to make up stuff about someone that you want to portray as a HERO from SCRATCH, then you TEND to make up POSITIVE & MIRACULOUS things ONLY about them - & if you’re person is WHOLLY LEGENDARY you would NOT make your narrative full of difficulties for your audience to accept – after all your goal is to get people to believe in your HERO, in this case, as a sin-less Messianic Divine Savoiur god-man.

Scholars think that ‘underneath the veneer’ of the faked heroic colours in the Gospel narratives (i.e. ‘Hagaddic Midrash’ & not history in the positivistic sense), Christians would hardly make up the fact that their Sinless GodMan was a Galilean Jew who eschewed money & had to be BAPTISED for the REMISSION OF HIS SINS by another Rabbi-Priest (like Yohanon bar Zechariah, aka John the Baptist, who therefore could be considered his SUPERIOR, etc.).

Neither would believers make up (from WHOLE CLOTH) all those NON FLATTERING stories about their Hero Messiah ‘acting the Terrorist who made his followers put together primitive ad hoc weapons out of ‘chords & whips’ followed by what can be described as a Terrorist Act (or at the least, a Riot) in the Jerusalem Temple during a Major Feast - or that they would go out of their way to place racist sexist words into his mouth to portray him as some kind of 1st century Warped Zionist piglet-lunatic who believed ‘only Jews’ were worthy of the Life and that the goyim (gentiles) were basically c-ckroaches or as he put it, (unclean) ‘DOGS’ begging for scraps in the mud (‘the Son of Man was sent ONLY to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro’el’ and ‘Since when is it right to take the Children’s bread out of their mouths and throw it to the DOGS under the table?’)

Neither would they have made up the idea that their Messiah was a FAILED DAVIDDIC SEDITIONIST armed his disciples in a mindlesss attempt to seize the holy land back from the Romans (Luke 22:35-47) who was moreover executed naked spread eagle by Roman Crucifixion for armed sedition during a failed armed coup attempt (‘Mark ‘ ch 15 & parallels) moreover SPECIFICALLY during the 100th Anniversary (i.e. in 36 CE) of the Invasion of the Roman Army under Pompey in 63 BCE –a historical coincidence that the later compilers/writers of these hagaddic stories had not even been aware of hen they were writing).
Nor would believers who were ‘making the whole thing up’ ha
ve placed demonstrably INCORRECT prophecies into his mouth (Greek words or not)

e.g. ‘There are some of you standing here who will not taste Death until they see the Bar Enasha Coming on the Clouds of Heaven seated at the Right hand of the Power of EL, with all of Holy Ones with him…’ - not exactly the kind of promise one would make about a legendary Hero worthy of belief i.e. who never in his life was able to live up to his deluded fantasies…which is tantamount to portraying him as a FALSE PROPHET who lied.

So although we have no hard evidence of who this personage actually was, moving backwads from the ‘Titilus on the Cross ‘(THE Prime Embarassment for the early Church) – so when scholars line up these Embarrassments to find that they correspond to previously unknown material found after Nov 1946 among Fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls in caves 1-11 (including some embarrassingly literal Quotations from the War Scroll (1QM) or the rare Aramaic Targums of the Prophets which Hellenised Jewish-Christians would not have had access to when they were penning ‘gospel’ stories) scholars begin think seriously that there is some coded history to be found underneath the Legendary Patina in the gospels whose ‘criteria of embarassment’ are just too many to have been made up from scratch – and that there indeed was a nearly unrecogniseable person buried under all the smoke & mirrors that Christian Clerics foist on their Sheeple.

reply to post by Sigismundus

e.g. ‘There are some of you standing here who will not taste Death until they see the Bar Enasha Coming on the Clouds of Heaven seated at the Right hand of the Power of EL, with all of Holy Ones with him…’ - not exactly the kind of promise one would make about a legendary Hero worthy of belief i.e. who never in his life was able to live up to his deluded fantasies…which is tantamount to portraying him as a FALSE PROPHET who lied.

Has not all your experience and education led you to believe that Jesus...yes J...E...S...U...S ( this is how I pronounce his name)has not been able to live up to his deluded fantasies as you put it?....Give me a break...I have looked into what you claim and I will tell you something....you are wrong...delusional..You have managed to aquire a lot of knowledge about nothing...Shame on you spreading your "DEAD SEA SCROLL" dis information....Where you get your proof there is 1000s of scriptures which contradict your proclamations.What you say is an addition too not in replace of.You do not shed a new light on anything.

Now now Oliveoil--

Why do you think the early church WENT TO SUCH LENGTHS to portray this R. Yehoshua bar Yosef individual as having fulfilled his delusions of grandeur in the socalled Transfiguration Pericopes?

The QOL (lit. Thunder) from the sky (accompanied by LIGHT, i.e. lightning) was interpreted by the inner circle of (3) James, John and Peter as "THIS IS MY SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED...YOU WILL LISTEN TO HIM!!"

Since as you should know by now in Deuteronomy it says in black and white paleoHebrew:

"ANY MAN WHO CLAIMS TO SPEAK AN ORACLE OF YHWH AND THAT EVENT DOES NOT COME TO PASS, THAT MAN IS A FALSE PROPHET and YOU SHALL NOT LISTEN TO HIM !!'

In other words, the gospel writers were ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE to make sure that their HERO Iesous was NOT SEEN AS A FALSE PROPHET MAKING FALSE PROPHECIES or CLAIMS (e.g. 'there are some of you standing here now that will not taste death until you see the Son of Man coming in the Clouds seated at the Right hand of the Power of EL with all of his Holy ones with him..:") which patently DID NOT COME TO PASS.

One of the claims against him in the later Mishnah was that Yeshu was hung at a Passover for being a Sorcerer, False Prophet and for Leading Yisro'el astray. So the Stigma of False Prophet was glommed on to him by non believers - probably because of verses like the above that never happened as advertised.

So the CRITERION OF EMBRARRASMENT HERE is simple: Iesous said some things that DID NOT PAN OUT, DID NOT COME TRUE, ergo non believers claimed HE WAS A LIAR - so the Gospel writers simply had to use Midrash to strng together a bunch of Old Testament verses and make him glow in the dark like some kind of Glorious Messianic Sparkler e.g. proto Isaiah chapter 4 (the final oracle)

Look at all the KEY words that are in the CLUSTER of this one verse from the end of protoIsaiah chapter 4 and compare it with the 3 transfiguration pericopes in the synoptic gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, whoever they were)

"In that Day YHWH shall create UPON EVERY DWELLING PLACE of MOUNT Zion and upon her ASSEMBLIES, A CLOUD OF SMOKE BY DAY and the SHINING OF FLAME BY NIGHT - and UPON ALL THE GLORY shall there be a Defence: Yea THERE SHALL BE A TABERNACLE for a SHADOW in the DAY from the heat and a COVERT from the THUNDER and RAIN."

You can see the key Midrashic words are all present in the Transfiguratiion Myth (now here is an example of a symbolic story, 'on the 6th day' exactly like the Old Testament Theophanies ('gods appearing') when Moses ascended the Mountain of Horeb to meet with the clan god of the post Exilic Jews, YHWH who likewise 'speaks' to him from some sort of light source) in Exodus.

These CLUSTER WORDS are not there by chance; they are there on purpose to create and build up an image based on a prophecy - to make the hero not seem so weak and deluded as others would see him:

MOUNT, ASSEMBLY ('it is good that we are assembled here') DWELLING, SMOKE, CLOUD, TABERNACLES, GLORY, LIGHT, FLAME, THUNDER (lightning/thunder = the voice (Qol) from heaven always 'thunders' when YHWH speaks etc.)

The image was to try and imagine the Bar Enasha appearing in CAVOD (Glory).

What you might have to learn, OliveOil is that the Aramaic for GLORY (CAVODAH is linked THEOLOGICALLY with the Aramaic word for SUFERING or TRIBULATION i.e. CEVEDEH (in Heb. they use the same consonants C-V-D)

We see this same play on words in the 4th Gospel ('John' whoever he was) when he says before his crucifixion (i.e. CEVED/CEVEDAH 'Father, GLORIFY your SON...' CAVOD/CAVODAH)

The 3rd Gospel links the Cavod-Glory-Transfiguration with the EXODON 'he was to acomplish at Jerusalem' in other words, his Ceved his Suffering and Execution.

The early church had a VERY HARD TIME trying to cover up the fact that instead of CAVOD (glory) their Hero got CEVED (agony) - and 40 years later nearly a million of his fellow Judaeans in Roman Occupied Palestine were wiped off the map by the Roman Army.

There's no reason to get riled...just do your homework and TAKE THAT HEBREW & GREEK CLASS will you please ? Otherwise you will forever be groping around in the dark about these little matters ...

reply to post by Sigismundus


To put it short and simple...I think your parents wasted a lot of money on your religious education.Im sorry but you seem to have very little insight as to theology.Your more concerned with the political correctness than the overall message.your assumptions as to the insight of what was going on 2000 years ago is generalized not personalized.You may know the whos ,whats ,wheres and whens however the more vital question you are not able to answer...Why...
You are no more knowledgeable on the subject of Jesus then my 6th grade history teacher. 30 years ago...

Oliveoil

You have a great deal of catching up to do, it seems to me.

You cannot even HOPE to understand the FIRST THING about R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir until you learn to read and write Paleo-Hebrew, 1st Century Koine Greek and Galilean Aramaic (his native tongue).

Until then you're just flayling your arms in the water, slowly slowly slowly drowning in your own ignorance...and not even wanting to improve yourself on these subject areas.

And there's really no excuse for it on ATS.

If you REALLY would like to get serious about your belief system you will have to do the necessary background work. And I will be happy to share my knowledge with you, if you feel you could keep up. So far, it seems you have not been able to do so.

Here are some study areas that will help guide you on your path to a more informed position.

You will have to learn what Haggadic Midrash is and how this method (along with the so-called Pesher method) was applied by the Greek Gospel writers in shaping their narratives. So far you have not shown any evidence of knowing what any of this is.

You will have to study the Talmudic literature in some depth before you can approach many of the subtler points I am making in my posts which seem to go way above your head.

You will have to learn how to read the Dead Sea Scroll Fragments. You do not seem conversant in say for example the language of 1QM the so-called War Scroll, and its bearing on the later teachings of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (Gk. Iesous) . It will help you put the man in his 'historical' context as a 'Daviddic Pretender' who was violently anti-Roman and believed like his followers and his teachers (e.g. Yohanon bar Zechariah, aka John the Baptist) that he and his 'kingdom' was living in the Last Days. You are not able to do this yet. You seem to have a LONG way to go here.

You will have to study in some depth Aramaic and Hebrew Gezara Shewa and related link catch-word Rabinnic Methodology in order to be able to understand the purport of many of the pericopes in the so-called Greek New Testament material, especially in the canonical Greek gospels.

Until you do this, you will not be able to understand why the things that appear in your so-called 'Sacred Texts' appear in the form and in the order that they do. It would be like reading a cipher text without a Key.

You will have to understand some of the historical 'Sitz im Leben' of your purported founder, especially the brutal and successive Military Occupations of Palestine since 722 BCE (e.g. Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome) and try to get your head around the idea of the Messianic Hope and the concept of the Last days, which specifically had to do with Apocalyptic Judgement as a result of these brutal series of military and economic occupation by foreign 'gentile' kingdoms - and the Daviddic histories of the various attempts to overthrow these occupiers since the time of Zerubabbel.

You will have to be able to discern the elements of the 1st century Hellenisitic Mystery Religions that were floating around at the time of the earliest Diaspora Jewish Messianist communities. You will have (for example) to learn what an Aretology is and to what use the early church put such language in making gentile Hellenistic Greek speaking converts after say 110 CE. You do not seem conversant in how these examples were adapted by the Greek speaking churches in their attempt to deify their dead Teacher when competing with other more established 'pagan' Mystery Schools throughout the Roman Empire where the Christian 'message' was preached.

You will have to learn what these Hellenistic (pre-Christian) Mystery Schools taught and how and to what extent they foreshadowed a lot of what the Christians stole (or more politely, adapted) from them, especially the Mysteries of Mithras and the Mysteries of Dionysius and the Mysteries of Isis & Osiris and Wusir-Hapi (=Serapis).

Until you understand the basic tenets and the kinds of language used in the larger and more influential Hellenistic Mystery Schools, you will not be able to know or recognise Theophanies or its related language when it is shown to you or when you see them or read about them.

You will need to understand how to read foreign and ancient theological texts 'theologically' - especially Persian Zoroastrian Dualism and its direct influence on post Exilic Judaeism during the Persian Period when Persia controlled and physically occupied the area around Palestine (and other Zoroastrian influenced thoughts and notions such as the notion of The Last Judgment or a belief in Angels and Devils and in a resurrection belief of the righteous &tc.) - at the moment, your posts have shwon to me that you have little or no measureable depth of knowledge of any of these pre-requisite matters which are absolute 'required reading' for any serious student who wants to know the first thing about their own religion of choice.

I can only say that sadly, as I would like to say to many others on these threads (at least, at times !!) there is just no excuse for such laziiness on ATS. If you wish to contribute something knowledgeable and helpful, at least do us the courtesy of looking up anything you do not quite understand and trying to learn what is being intelligently discussed.

Your posts show beyond any shadow of a doubt that you have little or no coherent understanding of the material I have covered so far.

And from here you have no place to go...but up, it seems to me where we are in the scheme of things with you.

Otherwise you will be left in the baleful condition you are in now, which is not very condusive to an intelligent or meaningful disciussion of these matters by any stretch of the imagination at this point.

It's completely up to you whether you wish to remain where you are now or move towards a greater understanding of these things.

I hope I have not been too harsh on you, but some things just have to be said.






[edit on 11-3-2010 by Sigismundus]

Oliveoil, you have NO CLUE what Sigismundus is talking about do you? It really shows, so stop embarrassing yourself and do your research for crying out loud.

Most people who are responsible for some type of religion do not write their own books. Jesus did not write any part of the bible. The Buddha did not write anything. Socrates did not write anything. Krishna did not write the Bhagavad Gita. The few exceptions include Mohamed who supposedly wrote the Koran.

Because it is just a story
2nd line

No, you don't have to be fluent in hebrew, greek and talmudic interpretations to 'get' that G-d wants man to be saved and made a way for us to do so.
So simple, a child could understand it.
You can be book smart, but have NO common-sense, sometimes.

I feel the need to defend Oliveoil here. While I understand and appreciate those who are well read and knowledgeable regarding the historical facts and climate of biblical times, fact is that "most" believers pay little heed to THAT aspect, and prefer to focus on the spiritual aspect alone.

Not all of us were lucky enough or motivated to research the facts behind a religious concept, or as in my case, HAD to as learning the history of the area was half of our school day--and in that light, can you not understand oliveoil's stance a bit more easily. It's not history to them, it's their belief system. No need to pin FACTS on that.

But--- I have stated in other threads floating around, knowing Greek, Hebrew and a bit of Aramaic really does put the Bible in a different context. It's amazing how different it actually is when it hasn't been bastardized by the King's English.

reply to post by Sigismundus


You would do good to put down your anti-Christian diatribes ("Propaganda") and get some Wisdom;
The Two Babylons