Hello ATS, I have a challenge for all the Christians out there,
this one goes out to all the Christians out there.
[color=Yellow]Why doesn't god just destroy Satan?[/color]


If god is all powerful. why doesn't he just destroy Satan? To end all the suffering that is going on in the world right now?

And another thing that is stumping me about Christianity, Why if faith a good thing? because I don't think it is. I'll have these long arguments with Christians and at the end of it all it is impossible to win, because you can take every defense away from them but their faith. At the end they'll just get say "you have to have faith"

My definition of Faith, Faith- Blindly believing in something, capable of causing mass delusion. pessimistic I guess but thats how I look at it, anyway just wondering what all the Christians had to say about that.











[edit on 7-3-2010 by XxRagingxPandaxX]

What if Christianity as an institution has misinterpreted the message of Jesus. I think that might be a better line of questioning. Faith to me means believing that through love you can change the world. The alternative is following man made rules to accomplish love, justice, and prosperity. I think the latter has never proven to be the case. Faith in Love changing the world requires commitment.

I'm not a Christian, however if I were I would reply with this:

"I think it's because we need to have opposition here on Earth. If there were no Satan, there wouldn't be the opposing forces like there is now. As for the havoc on the Earth, I think it's probably more the people that choose to follow Satan that cause it all, not Satan himself. Satan has no more power then we decide to give him."

This topic has been debated time and time again, and I'm not intending to sound jerky, but the replies will most like remain the same with exceptions here and there. ETA: The personal vendetta here against Christians could also perhaps veil what may otherwise be a perfectly sound answer, it's always best to take a neutral stance if you're looking for answers.

Second edit: TLomon explained it with more clarity.

[edit on 3/7/10 by captain_planet]

[edit on 3/7/10 by captain_planet]

I disagree faith applied to religion is mass delusion religion has done more harm than good if you look at history from the Salem witch trails to arranged marriages, the crusades, and lets not forget whats going on in the middle east right now.

I believe it has to do with "free will".

You can't have a concept of good without evil. Just like you can't have a concept of light without darkness. People should choose to be good. However, free will allows them to choose not to be good. The point of free will is to allow people to choose their own paths. Even Lucifer has a purpose in the grand scheme of things. Some believe he is as much a prisoner as the souls he traps (Dante).

I don't think it is people choosing to follow Lucifer, but rather people choosing to be selfish, greedy, etc. They choose to put themselves over other people, and as such, cause the calamity that we experience here on Earth.

If God destroyed Lucifer, then he just took away free will. We as individuals were given the gift to choose our own path, and as such, those paths must exist - take away the paths and you take away choices.

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
Hello ATS, I have a challenge for all the Christians out there,
this one goes out to all the Christians out there.
[color=Yellow]Why doesn't god just destroy Satan?[/color]


If god is all powerful. why doesn't he just destroy Satan? To end all the suffering that is going on in the world right now?

And another thing that is stumping me about Christianity, Why if faith a good thing? because I don't think it is. I'll have these long arguments with Christians and at the end of it all it is impossible to win, because you can take every defense away from them but their faith. At the end they'll just get say "you have to have faith"

My definition of Faith, Faith- Blindly believing in something, capable of causing mass delusion. pessimistic I guess but thats how I look at it, anyway just wondering what all the Christians had to say about that.




[edit on 7-3-2010 by XxRagingxPandaxX]

If God killed Satan, he'd be killing himself...I know this because Tyler knows this.

Blind Faith is not faith, it is Blind. You are thinking of Hope...Two separate things.

You can take Faith that the sun will rise or you can hope it does not....does that make any sense? If you hoped it did not and then it didn't, you could have faith, that what you hoped for came true, thus making it faith.

Anyone professing faith, that can not produce that which they take faith in, does not truly have faith, for faith without works is dead.

God is the god of the Living, not the dead. Reread that and understand "OF" the living.


Peace

Can faith BE a bad thing? Possibly...if ones faith causes ill-will to others or yourself.

However IS faith a bad thing? I don't think so.
I don't see faith as being inherently bad. Like anything the positive or negative of it tends to be more decided by the results of how that *thing* is applied/actioned.


I have a strong faith. A deep faith.
It is something I find much personal calmness, joy, strength, direction in.
It is something I treasure, nurture and build upon.

...could those things, those personal benefits be achieved via other means/ideologies? Of course they probably could - I however choose to achieve such, attain such by way and process of my faith.


Heres the other thing:
Those who know me personally often comment on my faith.
Even those who don't believe what I believe, who even see faith as the sign of a weak-minded illogical irrational delusional *insert-whatever-condescendingly-insulting-dismissive-label-here* individual.
The common comment is how my faith is positive not just for me but for those around me.

I do not *push* my faith on anyone else. I do not demand or expect others to hold faith in what I have faith in...as to do so disrespects you as a person, you as someone with your own beliefs, choices, thoughts and opinions.
I have no right at all to dictate or direct anyone else...just as I'd suggest noone has a right to dictate or direct me.


So I guess the big question is how does someone *action* their faith?
Do they *action* it in such a way as to create negative effect within themselves AND/OR others...or for a positive one.

At the end of the day...and this is something I often consider...is: How is MY faith *hurting* YOU?
How is my *actioning* of what I believe in effecting you?
Are you in any way less than, worse off, held back, held down by ME and how I apply my faith?

...if not...then perhaps keeping ones castigation and finger-pointing to oneself may well be an option - as to do so is to do what I see so many tarring 'Believers' with...


*editted to add:
IF the way I choose to action my faith is creating a negative impact on others...then I really need to appraise and take stock of it.
My faith should NEVER bring ill-will to anyone else.
It should NEVER be a sword or a smite.
It should NEVER be a burden or a thorn in someone else.

To me faith is only positive...any negativity component of it is one that I have added, or alternatively one that someone else has added to it in their interpretation/perception of it.
Even then, if the *negative judgement* of it rests with someone else I still need to be mindful of that and ensure that judgement isn't derived from anything I'm doing or not doing with my faith.



Peace.



[edit on 7-3-2010 by alien]

Let me try to explain in my futile way and yes I will have to use scripture as any thing else is not true.

Gen 1:

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So we are created in God's image, like him but not equal, similar but not he exact same.

Why were we created

Rev.4

[11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We were created for his pleasure, to worship him

Pss.95 1. [6] O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

We are given free will to chose Him or Satan

Mark 3:

[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Psalm 147:

[11] The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

Isa 46:

[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

As with our 1st amendment which is God ordained in that we have the will to chose him and congregate with those of like mind, to speak of him to write about him, or we can rebel and speak against him hang out with those of like mind and write against him.
In the end we all will be judged according to what we do.

As for Why he does not just destroy Satan now I am not certain but he has a place to put him soon that smoking pit called Hell

The Bible does not state why God chose to allow the coarse to happen the way it has, though it has been clear as to what will transpire. We each have the Choice to choose Him or Satan, to live eternally or to die in darkness and torment for eternity.

Satan was not always the enemy of God he was God's second in power beautiful and powerful, until that corrupted him and he wished to be God and receive the Glory and worship that man and the earth sent to God.

Hello Raging Panda,

Hope you are well,

If god is all powerful. why doesn't he just destroy Satan? To end all the suffering that is going on in the world right now?

Ahhh,The age old question that has echoed across generations of man for ages,
There is much to this,there is no one line post that sums it but if we could boil it down somewhat
and get to the crux of it it would help.
The first point to look at is the one that supposes that Satan is the source of evil,
Now according to the Bible he is not,Does that then mean that it is Gods fault for it then?
Well,One could come to that conclusion thinking that he being the Creator started the whole show
and now we are left to deal with the concequences.
Lets look at what is said of the beginnings,

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Right off the bat we see that God gave Adam some instructions,simple ones,God said,"You can do as you please but there is one thing that you cant"(The why's and how's are for another thread),anyway so Adam says"Ok"Long story short,Satan shows up and starts doing his thing,Now,He didn't make Eve do anything,
didn't force her to do wrong,he twisted words with lies and half truths but he didn't make her.She did it of her own accord,The next thing she gets her Husband involved and from it all goes pear shaped (or apple...),I digress...So,God shows up and says to Adam "What's going on here,why are you hiding?",

Now,What is the First thing that Adam does?,He blames the woman,"She did it,it's all her fault"
No"Well God,i disobeyed you,was lead astray by another and i take responsibility for my actions and intent"
No,he tried to divert the blame somewhere else,Yet he was the source of the wrongdoing,if he had manned
up and taken the blame for what he did then things may have been different (but that's for another thread as well)
And what does the Woman do?She blames the devil....

So we have this situation where the true source of the evil came not from Satan as he can't make anyone do anything,he can influence and deceive but he can't force anyone against their will,And it didn't come from God,His instructions were clear and concise,"Don't do that one thing",So,That leaves the blame laying fairly and squarely on the shoulders of man,and even this day we do the same thing,try to deflect the blame elsewhere,it's our nature to do so,
So,even if God were to destroy Satan it still would not eradicate the evil in the world,To do that he would have to destroy the hearts of men and that's not what he wants to do.

Ok RP,I have to go to work,When i get some more time i will post more on the rest of your OP,as for what i said i hope it helps some,I don't know everything but if it brings up more questions then post them and
i will try my best to answer,
Till then Regards

Violet.

Edit_For my dodgy spelling

[edit on 7-3-2010 by BlackViolet]

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
Hello ATS, I have a challenge for all the Christians out there,
this one goes out to all the Christians out there.
[color=Yellow]Why doesn't god just destroy Satan?[/color]


If god is all powerful. why doesn't he just destroy Satan? To end all the suffering that is going on in the world right now?

He cannot. They are brothers, I think, and one fights the other, balance always. One thing Christians will never admit is that God is All Things. for if god is All Things, then he is everything evil also. That would include a rapist, a murderer, a pedophile, and a killer. Right? You cannot have it both ways. God is either everything, or nothing.

...and sorry, to answer you original question of 'Why doesn't God just destroy Satan?'

...my Answer: I honestly don't know.

I don't.

All I have to go on and consider with is my extremely limited human mind and human understandings. If God has His reasons...and I'm sure He does...then they are as yet unknown to me.

I can certainly summise a possible reason all I like...but its certainly not going to be a *definite answer*. It'll only be what I'd consider (again with my limited mind and understandings) to be a list of possibilities.



Sorry that probably doesn't answer your question - but hey, at least I'm honest enough to put my hand up and say "Nope. Don't know the answer to that sorry"...

[edit on 7-3-2010 by alien]

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
Hello ATS, I have a challenge for all the Christians out there,
this one goes out to all the Christians out there.
[color=Yellow]Why doesn't god just destroy Satan?[/color]


If god is all powerful. why doesn't he just destroy Satan? To end all the suffering that is going on in the world right now?

He cannot. They are brothers, I think, and one fights the other, balance always. One thing Christians will never admit is that God is All Things. for if god is All Things, then he is everything evil also. That would include a rapist, a murderer, a pedophile, and a killer. Right? You cannot have it both ways. God is either everything, or nothing.

God, according to the bible created everything. Including evil.

And if somehow it is possible for any Cristian to realise their religion comes from/has it's roots in another religion. That of the Jews called Judaism. They would learn the devil and hell do not come from Judaism.

Apparently they do not have an embodiment for evil or consider this evil to be a test working on behalf of God.

This makes perfect sense to me.
lets say you make something to have a choice. what's the point if their is only one answer to pick from ?

My other idea is we are victim of a war and the winner or looser did the best he could for us not to pick the same side at the next battle.

Divide & conquer !

I am not a Christian, but perhaps overcoming challenges and exercising free will in the right way makes you a good person. It is difficult to develop character and wisdom if everything is handed to you.

What's the point of living if you don't believe in something?

Originally posted by alien
Can faith BE a bad thing? Possibly...if ones faith causes ill-will to others or yourself.

However IS faith a bad thing? I don't think so.
I don't see faith as being inherently bad. Like anything the positive or negative of it tends to be more decided by the results of how that *thing* is applied/actioned.

I have a strong faith. A deep faith.
It is something I find much personal calmness, joy, strength, direction in.
It is something I treasure, nurture and build upon.

...could those things, those personal benefits be achieved via other means/ideologies? Of course they probably could - I however choose to achieve such, attain such by way and process of my faith.

I do not *push* my faith on anyone else. I do not demand or expect others to hold faith in what I have faith in...as to do so disrespects you as a person, you as someone with your own beliefs, choices, thoughts and opinions.
I have no right at all to dictate or direct anyone else...just as I'd suggest noone has a right to dictate or direct me.


So I guess the big question is how does someone *action* their faith?
Do they *action* it in such a way as to create negative effect within themselves AND/OR others...or for a positive one.

Peace.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by alien]

Faith a bad thing ?
No ! Not at all.
For all the reasons Alien mentions.

To feel happy cause of ones faith is a beauthifull thing.
I can only feel happy and tell them their a lucky person.

Why ?
I don't think anyone can be truly happy when they are still to much involved with others then they are supposed to be.

@ Alien

I want to congratulate you ! With your faith and your atitude to others.
It takes a strong mind to accept and act like you do.

God cant destroy Satan anymore than light can destroy dark. It is the yin/yang of the Universe. If Satan were to be destroyed thered be no need for a God or a Jesus. Organized religion is based on fear. Fear of death, fear of burning in hell. I do not believe in Satan personally, only an absence from 'God' or Our Creator.

Peace. K*

god dont get rid of satan till every last soul decides which side its on your either hot or cold if in the middle or luke warm i spew you out jesus said.
when we enter a human body our memorys are so great the tiny human brain carnt process em. thats why when people go out of body or have a NDE they always say they new evrything at once could hear and understand evrything talking even plants and animals .the whole network you are then part of part of god. being with satan and cast to hell is the withdrawl of this privilege to know god again. the fires of hell is a metophor for the burning desire to be one with god. I think.Being on earth is a test of your faith faith is believeing in something you carnt measure or prove. living a righteouse life helps but is near impossible in this modern world.I believe at somepoint all us born human have sided in the rebelion in heaven god wants to c to what degree we are aturally bad .being not able to remeber resets us and wipes the memory so we dont judge our selves on earth.we have been given a second chance but the reall bad seeds wont change , This world is used to gather evidence to condem or free you back to heaven. you are the prosecuter/defence your life time is evidence hence your life review in near death . Love god say your sorry for sining as we do it every day we are incapable not to sin even in thought . just my thoughts

[edit on 3/7/2010 by dashar]