Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Originally posted by Xtrozero
Who controls science and inforces these benchmarks?....the state
That's not true. Though the institutional frame may be given by the state, the people who decide about this are not institutions, ...snip
So we make a law that evolution must be taught, who does the enforcing and what would be the punishment? Does a science teacher go to their house and
smack them over their head with a book? The state would be the enforcer, would it not?
But your taxes pay for their homeschooling. Not for the schooling itself, but for establishing homeschooling standards, enforcing them and taking the
tests. That's all done with your tax money - so it is only fair to apply the same strict standards to the people enjoying your tax contribution - be
that in public school or in homeschooling.
Well no.... (I think you just want to argue on this point) The parents pay full taxes like everyone else, but also all the schooling cost. The one
cost to see if the children meet establish standards (testing ) I agree is the state cost AND those same standards are met by them since they are
required to take the tests, REQUIRED. Not only which they pass, but excel at, so they meet the standards of the tests they meet standards, period.
If "homeschooling" means " go out of school and let the parents decide " I wouldn't care too much about what was being taught. But homeschooling
is a regulated process - as you can get the same kind of degress like in public schools - so we better have the same standards or the whole system
will lose it's sense.
Do they pass the required tests or not?
Look, if they teach creationism as science - they have no idea what science is. Creationism is not derived by the scientific method - this is a fact,
not an opinion, that can be put to a test by anyone with a thinking mind. Leave out the question about which is right just for now - surely you do not
want to make the claim that both have been discovered by applying the scientific method?
Well if you read my pass posts you would see I do not believe in creationism in the least, but once again what do we do to enforce it? That is the
problem. They get a great education that meets all the establish standards, but have a different view on evolution. I have suggested that this
scenario is like throwing out the baby with the bath water with the fix worst than the issue.
Yes we can write laws, yes we can harshly enforce them, but to what end? Is the child better off after all this is said and done? Do the parents go to
jail for “child abuse”? Does the state force the children into a state run school? What do we do that doesn’t create a worst scenario for the
Science teachers must teach things that goe against their beliefs all the time. That's the whole point - their beliefs don't count, the science
Really? Don't think so... If it is science then it is not a belief type situation.
As someone who teaches history at a University, I teach stuff that I don't necessarily believe in all the time (no, not because "the state" forces
me to - he doesn-t - but because some things are based on demostrable facts and sources and other stuff seems more plausible but has no documentation)
yet I have no problem with it.
We are not talking basic norms here, also I'm not sure if anyone teaches creationism without their childern ever reading about evolution in some way,
soI guess we are talking the extreme, and extreme is most likley very small numbers.
Faith is a strange animal, it doesn't need facts, so these people don't need emperical data to know they are right. This always comes back to two
basic questions. What do we do to change it without creating a worst situation, and do they pass standardized tests or not?
If you refuse to teach objective facts that don't jive with your belief system, you have no right to be a teacher. A teacher must by definition be
ready to teach against his very beliefs, and most teachers do at one point or another.
What you're saying is: " Hey, there's your truth and my truth and every one elses truth. Let's teach them all" . In that case the worth of your
education is contingent on the whim and the belief system of the person teaching you - truly a horror-scenario. We need standards, and we need to
enforce them. Science and the scientific soncensus gives us these standards, not the state.
But once again the state will be the ones to do the enforcing.
Just what is the main objective here? I would say for the children to receive a quality education and retain all that great information so they can do
well in life while having the best attitude and environment to make all that happen.
Do public schools really meet this? I say not so well...even with all the standardized programs. In a perfect world every child would have a
personalized teacher, mentor, adviser, but because parents can't do this we need to have other people do it for them. Which way it better? I would
say as does empirical data homeschooling wins hands down.
Also just what are we really talking about here? If these children excel at all standardized testing that is required by the state then they must see
evolution, though in the extreme cases it would be taught as the false truths of the unbelievers, but they must learn about it to pass state tests
even though they most likely don’t believe in it.
So what is it here? Is it ok to pass the information, but push creationism? I’m sure that is the typical case in this very small minority that do
These kids excel well beyond their state educated counterparts, they continue to excel in college, and so evolution though I’m sure they know about
really doesn’t play much into their success one way or the other.
BTW I think I read that Canada schools do not cover evolution until 12th grade, so one more year when they start college for these kids in some
extreme creationism situation is not very much longer.
[edit on 12-3-2010 by Xtrozero]