I KNEW this was going to happen, sooner or later!!!

Do you think we could manage to post on some kind of an intellectual and professional level and stop with the name calling?

And YES, Troll is a name..

There is absolutely no reason to add a snide comment to your post and any more will result in warnings.

Please do NOT reply to this post in thread.

Thank you

Semper

Originally posted by theability

Wel both know that the AirDense system in the USA is wonderful things to have. It supplies us with an ability to defend against unknown air born threats, plus monitor the thousands of flights in our airspace at any given time.

I think this is an interesting notion and, with respect, I believe that subconsciously you've cut to the heart of one of the reasons why Truthers believe what they do.

One often reads in TM editorial of how far-reaching and powerful America's defences were before 9/11, and how they had the ability to zap any intruder into the US's precious airspace within mere minutes. But if one does a little reading one can see that actually they - for bureaucratic as well as technological reasons - were not nearly as effective as people were led to believe.

For me this says something about Truthers' fear of the unknown. They enjoyed the notion that they lived in a protected bubble, a privileged fortress. 9/11 destroyed that and they, some of them at least, are looking for reasons why that can't be so.

No on 911 what the heck happened? 14 terror drills that day had our defense system so rattles they couldn't tell which way was up. I

I must admit that I don't know much about this subject. But it's not really particularly useful to know the number of drills going on unless one also knows how many there normally are. Presumably the US-based air force does a lot fo drills. There isn't much else for them to do on a normal day.

And what the Truth Movement websites characterise as a big "war game" type drill could easily be some people getting in a plane and practicing a bit.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

I must admit that I don't know much about this subject. But it's not really particularly useful to know the number of drills going on unless one also knows how many there normally are. Presumably the US-based air force does a lot fo drills. There isn't much else for them to do on a normal day.

This whole bit over drills is yet another deliberately deceptive manipulation on the part of the conspiracy theorists to artificially make things appear more sinister sounding than they really are. The drills "suspiciously being carried out that day" suddenly become less suspicious once it's known the drills are held EVERY YEAR, before and since 9/11.

Info on Global Guardian

Info on Vigilant Guardian

The whole drill thing is just a red herring to begin with. Once NORAD command announced "this is no drill" everyone knew it was a legitimate attack.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

The whole drill thing is just a red herring to begin with. Once NORAD command announced "this is no drill" everyone knew it was a legitimate attack.

And you know this how?





[edit on 28-5-2010 by theability]

reply to post by TrickoftheShade

For me this says something about Truthers' fear of the unknown. They enjoyed the notion that they lived in a protected bubble, a privileged fortress. 9/11 destroyed that and they, some of them at least, are looking for reasons why that can't be so.

Give me a break, I worked as a paramedic in denver for 10 years. Plus I was a combat medic in the Army for Four years.

So stop telling me about living in protected bubbles and insulting my knowledge of the world.

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

For me this says something about Truthers' fear of the unknown. They enjoyed the notion that they lived in a protected bubble, a privileged fortress. 9/11 destroyed that and they, some of them at least, are looking for reasons why that can't be so.

Give me a break, I worked as a paramedic in denver for 10 years. Plus I was a combat medic in the Army for Four years.

So stop telling me about living in protected bubbles and insulting my knowledge of the world.

Even if you didn't work as a paramedic or a combat medic I would have to agree with you on this one. I could just as easily copy and past the original quote, change one word and make the same point for the opposite side. I think i'll do just that.

For me this says something about Debunkers' fear of the unknown. They enjoyed the notion that they lived in a protected bubble, a privileged fortress. 9/11 destroyed that and they, some of them at least, are looking for reasons why that can't be so.

Someone can claim that truthers are afraid that it might be possible that knife weilding terrorist could knock this great country down a peg.

Someone can then claim that debunkers are afraid that it might be possible for the government to murder it's own civilians

(or if you don't believe they did the murdering say)

Someone can then claim that debunkers are afraid that it might be possible for the government to ignore the warnings of an impending attack of this magnitude.

(of if you don't believe they did the murdering or ignore the attacks)

Someone can then claim that debunkers are afraid that it might be possible for the government to be oblivious to an impending attack of this magnitude

Originally posted by theability
And you know this how?

The 9/11 commission report, page 20-

"At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS [Northeast Air Defense Sector]-

FAA: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed toward New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.

NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

NEADS ordered to battle stations the two F-15 alert aircraft at Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Massachussets, 153 miles away from New York City. The air defense of America began with this call."


You obviously dismiss the findings of the 9/11 commission report, but it would certainly help if you actually READ the 9/11 commission report so you'll know what the findings that you're dismissing actually are.

[edit on 28-5-2010 by GoodOlDave]

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
I KNEW this was going to happen, sooner or later!!!

Geez Dave, you sound excited that a reported truther killed someone. Sick.

reply to post by GoodOlDave



Dave all I remember about the ATC transcripts: Some were immediatley destroyed and tossed into the trash.

But besaide that here is a greta document about drills going on and before.

War Games

There was a total of 14 drills running on 9/11 alone. I am finding all of the names for them, but this one shows whow they wanted to blame in June 2001!
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c27e7428092a.jpg[/atsimg]
Amazing that OBL is already on the cover of all this, months prior to 911.

Planning makes an event not an accident nor an attack, it becomes STRATEGIC!

Originally posted by theability
Amazing that OBL is already on the cover of all this, months prior to 911.

Not really, seeing that by that time, Bin Laden and his bunch had already bombed the USS Cole in 2000, had already bombed the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998, and tried to destroy the WTC in 1993. By that time, we likewise already tried to kill Bin laden with a massive cruise missile strike ordered by Clinton.

When I accuse you conspiracy people of intentionally manipulating and misrepresenting the material you post to get people to believe what you want them to believe, how does this show I'm wrong, exactly? There's no way you could not have known the above facts.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Not really, seeing that by that time, Bin Laden and his bunch had already bombed the USS Cole in 2000, had already bombed the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998, and tried to destroy the WTC in 1993.

Yet when on 9/11 when our President is told that a plane had just crashed into the WTC, the same one that was bombed in '93, does he call into the military, or FAA to see what's going on to make sure it was just an accident? No. He just couldn't miss that "all important" reading with the kids.

Then when he is told during the middle of the kid's reading that "America is under ATTACK," does he politely excuse himself to start taking action to defend the country he swore to protect? No. He continues to sit there like a lost puppy waiting for the kid's reading event to end.

Gee, and you wonder why some of us think there was a conspiracy with 9/11.

Originally posted by ATH911
Yet when on 9/11 when our President is told that a plane had just crashed into the WTC, the same one that was bombed in '93, does he call into the military, or FAA to see what's going on to make sure it was just an accident? No. He just couldn't miss that "all important" reading with the kids.

Then when he is told during the middle of the kid's reading that "America is under ATTACK," does he politely excuse himself to start taking action to defend the country he swore to protect? No. He continues to sit there like a lost puppy waiting for the kid's reading event to end.

Gee, and you wonder why some of us think there was a conspiracy with 9/11.

Because he was so successful at pulling off his planned attack that he could only sit there like a lost puppy? How do you account for the apparent incongruence in that equation?

reply to post by theability


ite the source, please for this:

Dave all I remember about the ATC transcripts: Some were immediatley destroyed and tossed into the trash.

It is very important to have the facts correct, and not extemporalize.

Because I have a vague notion that I know what you are referring to in that sentence, and if so, then your sentence is incorrect, and draws a wrong conclusion, in view of actual fact.

Originally posted by ATH911
Yet when on 9/11 when our President is told that a plane had just crashed into the WTC, the same one that was bombed in '93, does he call into the military, or FAA to see what's going on to make sure it was just an accident? No. He just couldn't miss that "all important" reading with the kids.

Now there, we are in agreement. We gave a man's job to a spoiled little rich brat who failed at everythign he touched...twice! The reason why he sat and did nothing during the attack is self evident- in the back of his mind he was thinking, "OH, S**T! I MESSED THINGS UP AGAIN!" It was only on the advice of his secret service crew reminding him not to be a spoiled little rich brat and stop acting like a deer caught in a headlight that he actually started doign anything.

Bush doesn't even have the intelligence to pick his nose, and this is the guy who you think successfully masterminded the most complex and convoluted conspiracy in all of human history with the sheer perfection of a supernatural act. Pull my other leg, why don't you.

Gee, and you wonder why some of us think there was a conspiracy with 9/11.

No, I wonder why some of you insist on introducing so many excessively absurd claims of secret controlled demolitions, nukes, lasers from outer space, cruise missiles, international coverups, and armies of gov't disinformation agents, all to frame some nothing country that noone cares about. The real details of the attack are shocking and surreal enough, and the real conspiracy of covering up the massive incompetence is anger-inspiring enough, without needing to delve into all this fantasia.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Because he was so successful at pulling off his planned attack that he could only sit there like a lost puppy? How do you account for the apparent incongruence in that equation?

First off, the attacks were only halfway done and how would he have known if the WTC attacks were successful when he's still sitting in that room?

Second, you really expected him to stay remaining in that room in front of the cameras with a smirk on his face the whole time?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Now there, we are in agreement. We gave a man's job to a spoiled little rich brat who failed at everythign he touched...twice! The reason why he sat and did nothing during the attack is self evident- in the back of his mind he was thinking, "OH, S**T! I MESSED THINGS UP AGAIN!" It was only on the advice of his secret service crew reminding him not to be a spoiled little rich brat and stop acting like a deer caught in a headlight that he actually started doign anything.

That was AFTER Bush took his time leaving the reading room.

Bush doesn't even have the intelligence to pick his nose

Yet all his advisors and Secret Service agents with him at the event were also so stupid that they didn't know how to excuse him from the reading event while our country was under attack?! The Secret Service where so stupid that they put the POTUS's life, along the rest in the school, in danger for not evacuating everybody ASAP?!

and this is the guy who you think successfully masterminded the most complex and convoluted conspiracy in all of human history with the sheer perfection of a supernatural act.

Where did I ever suggest W was the mastermind of 9/11?!

all to frame some nothing country that noone cares about.

Afghanistan, the country US corporations were trying to put a gas pipeline through and is the world's biggest heroin producing country that's right next to Iran, with the 3rd largest oil reserves, which is right next to Iraq, with the 2nd largest oil reserves that we invaded because of 9/11? Do you see the picture that's being painted hear? Remember, open BOTH eyes.

Originally posted by ATH911

Second, you really expected him to stay remaining in that room in front of the cameras with a smirk on his face the whole time?

The guy was so poor on social graces that he used to call Karl Rove, "Turd Blossom" to his face. 'Nuff said.

Originally posted by ATH911
That was AFTER Bush took his time leaving the reading room.

We all saw the footage in "Fahrenheit 9/11" of Bush being appraised by his people while he was sitting in the Florida classroom. If you are attempting to deny this then you are lying.

Where did I ever suggest W was the mastermind of 9/11?!

Oh, I get it. You're dropping all this innuendo about how "suspicious" it is that Bush smirked and acted so nonchalant in that Florida classroom, and when I try to call you on it you're now trying to backpeddle by employing plausible deniability with, "that's not what you said". I thoroughly despise innuendo games for this very reason.

Please just come out and say what you mean to say here- did Bush stage the 9/11 attack or didn't he?

Afghanistan, the country US corporations were trying to put a gas pipeline through and is the world's biggest heroin producing country that's right next to Iran, with the 3rd largest oil reserves, which is right next to Iraq, with the 2nd largest oil reserves that we invaded because of 9/11? Do you see the picture that's being painted hear? Remember, open BOTH eyes.

You've been getting your information from those damned fool conspiracy web sites again, I see. It was the Taliban who wanted to build pipelines through Afghanistan, but the place is such a godawful basket case that Unocal didn't want to touch it with a ten thousand foot pole. FYI both Iraq and Iran have access to ports and fleets of super tankers on the Persian gulf, so they don't NEED any extra pipelines.

If you're going to be wallowing in these conspiracy stories, that's one thing, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop making stuff up.

[edit on 28-5-2010 by GoodOlDave]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Weedwaker I'd be happy to supply that information for you as noted below:

Controllers' 9/11 Tape Destroyed Report Says

Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by a Federal Aviation Administration manager, according to a government investigative report issued yesterday.

F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers Statements

"The destruction of evidence in the government's possession, in this case an audiotape particularly during times of a national crisis, has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public," the inspector general's report said. "We do not ascribe motivations to the mangers in this case of attempting to cover up, and we have no indication that there was anything on the tape that would lead anyone to conclude that they had something to hide or that the controllers did not carry out their duties."

Now it goes on to say this in the above document...

But keeping the tape's existence a secret, and then destroying it did not "serve the interests of the F.A.A., the department, or the public," the report said.

reply to post by theability


So, yes....you were referring to an incident I had in mind, and yes, you got it wrong when you said that "ATC transcripts" had been destroyed. Pay close attention to the facts of the case, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

That's why I mentioned it.

I've already, in other threads, explained at great length why this particular incident is a non-starter for the 'conspiracy' argument...and that information, the full background on this case is available on the internet, for I have found it previously, and posted it.

Others may do the same research for themselves.

Of course, last time I posted it was some months back, and it would take some time to find it, out of so many others since.


Another thought comes to mind, let me see....


YES!!! I did a little searching on the guess that there'd be some sort of blog for ATC people....I think this one has some promise (because I like the name...haven't dipped in yet, though, so y'all can scope it out): www.stuckmic.com...

You may be able to get a lot of questions answered from folks on that forum, who are career professionals in ATC. I was the 'user', and had little other interaction on personal levels with controllers, so that is the extent of knowledge...they will have other insights and opinions.

(I hope it's OK to mention this other forum here within ATS boundaries...it might be helpful to dispel so many 9/11 "conspiracy" myths that abound out there....)