Doubts about Freemasonry, with all the respect I ask for answers to both freemasons, and other peopl

Ok, well I've been researching about the NWO, mysteries, luciferianism, and many other topics for about two years already. I can say, that I've known in person good freemasons, however there are still some doubts that perhaps you could help me to solve.

1) Are people like Jay Z, Lady Gaga, and such crappy artists part of freemasonry through anyway?
Appareantly the offices of MTV in Canada are situated in a Lodge, is that true? If this is true, I would like to know with all respect, what the hell happened to the craft of some centuries ago? how can you turn from being an organization with people such as Goethe and Mozart, to a thing based in the mere consumism and power on earth?

2) Perhaps this is part of your secrets, but is there really a relation between you and what could happen in 2012?

3) Are there both white and black lodges? I ask this because for me there seems to be many contradictory stuff in your teachings. I'll put it in a brief example recurring again to "gods" such as Goethe and Mozart:

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Johan Wolfgang von Goethe

"Everything that emancipates the spirit without giving us control over ourselves is harmful."
Goethe

So, as you can see Goethe was an individual that knew well about the inner power of the spirit, plus he was an advocate of self control and choosing knowledge over material wealth. In paper the "weirdest thing" of all, would be that he was member of the Freemasonry, and a founding member of the original Illuminati. Which would finish with the myth of the Illuminati being luciferian (he even wrote a version of famous "Faust" where true love defeats the lust and power provided by Mephistopheles)

Concerning Mozart, I've to mention "The Magic Flute" which is a perfect example of Alchemy and harmony between both principles of the Universe. This opera is full of teachings of love, virtue, friendship, and honor, while the representation of lust, greed, and hatred, is Monostatos which in the end is nothing more than a "bug".

To make my point clearer, I'm just stating that these members of Freemasonry that were perhaps among the most powerful of all time, believed in God and in Love. The materialism and its symptoms (greed, lust, hatred) are seen as obstacles to enlightenment.

Usually all the time when I read or listen these brilliant minds, my thoughts towards your teachings become positive and I even admire you in some senses. However there's still the black aspect that makes me think quite the opposite:

- Persons such as Albert Pike and many other freemasons that in one way or another had a relation with the low deities "lucifer" and "baphomet" seem to concentrate their teachings in getting an almost "selfish knowledge" that instead of helping you gain more compassion towards others, fully concentrate on the material power. And all of the pop icons that use masonic symbolism (like Gaga, Jay Z, and hundreds others) that promote endless lust, greed, the need for money,etc. Seem to be against the teachings of the "masters" I mentioned before.

So I just want to know, what really happened to Freemasonry? is it that there's a massive difference between the european and the one that came to America? or perhaps that the real masons died centuries ago, and what we see now are "posers" concentrating on the left hand aspect?

4) Last but not least, I would like to know if Freemasonry is declining right now? You were the promoters of the "Enlightenment", the State of Right rather than the Divine one, and basically gave the bases to the "Modernity". However, now that we're in a global crisis were people are trying to create a Posmoderniity, all of these masonic values of freedom, equity, and fraternity seem to dissapear.

Again, I'm just asking in a humble way, respect your silence, no matter what view about the universe you have.






[edit on 4-3-2010 by Szerablyn]

BTW, sorry if I commited any grammatic error. I'm very tired, but I needed to write the message now.

1. No

2. No

3. No

4. No

reply to post by Szerablyn


1. No - the only confirmed Masons that I know of in the entertainment business are the actor, Mel Gibson, and the singer, Leonard Cohen. (Perhaps I should also mention that the late Patrick Swayze, who died recently, was also a Mason.) There are rumours that Will Smith is a Prince Hall Mason, but I cannot confirm this.

2. There is no link between Freemasonry and 2012.

3. No - lodges are not restricted by race. An interesting example is when South Africa was still under the apartheid government, clubs and societies were forbidden to allow both black and white members. Freemasonry somehow managed to get exempted from this rule, and was the only society in South Africa which was legally allowed membership of both black and white men during the apartheid era.

4. Freemasonry is declining in terms of numbers, but certainly not in values or morals. Although it is not always apparent to non-Masons, Freemasonry is still a global force in upholding traditional values such as virtue, honour and mercy.




[edit on 5/3/2010 by Saurus]

why on earth would a secret society want any part of people like Lady Gaga and Jay Z who pander to the masses and the "sheep". Aren't these guys elitist? I mean if they're going to let Jay fraking Z use illuminati symbolism and messages, then why not put these things on happy meals, coke bottles, porn and every piece of "bling"?

if a secret society wants among its ranks fanboys/girls of the likes of Jay Z and Lady Gaga then they are PATHETIC. I'd rather have the GD Manson family than these clowns.

reply to post by Saurus


thats more like it! I mean Cohen>>>>>Jay Z. And I never heard any secret messages in "Chelsea Hotel"!

I was once a member of an organization similar to the Masons. We just hung out and rented out our hall to make money for the organization. There were annual conventions, charity functions, etc. These organizations aren't trying to control the world or anything. My uncle was actually a Mason. He never talked about money. He never bragged about what he had. He just loved to golf. That was the only elitist thing he did. These days even golf isn't as elitist as it once was. Anyway I think people in these organizations just want fellowship. They support one another like brothers. Maybe they have a weekend Poker game or bowling league or something. They're just having a good time. Nothing to fear. These are the last people you should fear. They are fine, upstanding citizens in their community. I'm not saying there's no NWO. There is, but these guys aren't it.

reply to post by Szerablyn


The whole Jay Z and Lady Gaga thing, I think it was just a rumor created by the same people who claim we eat children. People who have lots of time and very little knowledge. Once you become a mason and you learn what it means to be one, these stories become enjoyably laughable.

2012 has never been discussed at my lodge or any that I have been to. Strangely, not even in passing conversation. You would think it would be of interest to a few people, but doesn't seem to make the list of things to discuss. Perhaps that will change in 2011. Whatever happens will be a mystery to us as well as you.

The race issue, well, all I can say is people are people and where you are at in the country still has a big bearing of how things happen. In my state, we just recognized Prince Hall masonry a few years ago. before that, it was considered clandestine. There is still a fair amount of animosity there. I will leave it at that. People from my area could take quite a few lessons from Saurus and his area.

Freemasonry in my area is increasing and younger members are coming in. And being active members. I think it's different everywhere but as the oldest known fraternity, it would take a lot for it not to exist.

Lastly, about the Illuminati, I only know what I have read, but it was formed by masons and non masons in an era of extreme stupidity. Some men were fed up with ignorance and tried to form a group where they could have an escape from such things. Since they were secret, the same folks they were trying to escape from feared them and forced their demise. they stood for some of the same principals masonry does, and Lucifer isn't one of them. Only God. Believe that.

Albert pike wasn't a lucifarian. He was a deist I believe. Before you condemn him to being something he was not, please read some of his works. The whole thing, not just the paragraphs highlighted by people trying to persuade your judgement. If you see what his true meaning and context are, you will have a much better understanding of the man.

Originally posted by Szerablyn
If this is true, I would like to know with all respect, what the hell happened to the craft of some centuries ago? how can you turn from being an organization with people such as Goethe and Mozart, to a thing based in the mere consumism and power on earth?

3) Are there both white and black lodges? I ask this because for me there seems to be many contradictory stuff in your teachings. I'll put it in a brief example recurring again to "gods" such as Goethe and Mozart:

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Johan Wolfgang von Goethe

"Everything that emancipates the spirit without giving us control over ourselves is harmful."
Goethe

So, as you can see Goethe was an individual that knew well about the inner power of the spirit, plus he was an advocate of self control and choosing knowledge over material wealth. In paper the "weirdest thing" of all, would be that he was member of the Freemasonry, and a founding member of the original Illuminati. Which would finish with the myth of the Illuminati being luciferian (he even wrote a version of famous "Faust" where true love defeats the lust and power provided by Mephistopheles)

Concerning Mozart, I've to mention "The Magic Flute" which is a perfect example of Alchemy and harmony between both principles of the Universe. This opera is full of teachings of love, virtue, friendship, and honor, while the representation of lust, greed, and hatred, is Monostatos which in the end is nothing more than a "bug".


[edit on 4-3-2010 by Szerablyn]

I am now decoding all opera 's:
- Mozart was a Freemason
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
books.google.com... (Page 137)

- Bach encoded Rosicrucian stuff in his work. The end of his live was encoded in the music.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Bach worked in the same town as Francis Bacon.
Francis Bacon is known for the New Atlantis (New World Order) and his cryptographic ciphers.

I am still working on Goethe.

Rosecrucian stuff is already decoded.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And I even found the Rosecrucian Square and Compass.

It all goes back to Plato, Pythagoras, King Solomon and Egypt.
This all explains the pyramid on the Dollar.

Originally posted by Szerablyn
Ok, well I've been researching about the NWO, mysteries, luciferianism, and many other topics for about two years already. I can say, that I've known in person good freemasons, however there are still some doubts that perhaps you could help me to solve.

1) Are people like Jay Z, Lady Gaga, and such crappy artists part of freemasonry through anyway?

Being a fraternity, Lady Gaga wouldn't qualify for membership (unless that whole hermaphrodite thing wasn't just a marketing angle )

Originally posted by Szerablyn
Appareantly the offices of MTV in Canada are situated in a Lodge, is that true?

A former Masonic Temple, yes. Active one? No. Basically, the heritage building that houses MTV Canada had to be sold because the temple corporation that owned it fell behind in a number of areas over the years. These links will give you a good handle on the building.

Wikipedia link about MTV Canada

"A Tale of two Temples"

BTW, just for clarification, the building that a Masonic Lodge meets in is referred to as a Masonic Temple while a Masonic Lodge refers to membership.

Originally posted by Szerablyn
3) Are there both white and black lodges?

I assume you're asking about Prince Hall Masonry. However, both Prince Hall and non-Prince Hall Masonry have (for the most part) been open to all comers for some time. So the differentiation between the two isn't particularly meaningful anymore.

The Wiki article on Prince Hall Masonry seems to be a decent read.

Wikipedia link about Prince Hall Masonry

Originally posted by Szerablyn
4) Last but not least, I would like to know if Freemasonry is declining right now?

Not in my experience. The Baby Boomers didn't particularly embrace Masonry and there's been a generation of stagnation and retrenchment. However generally speaking, the Boomers' sons have been taking up where their grandfathers left off and membership has been increasing.

HTH

Fitz

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate such help.

I'm not saying that Gaga, Jay Z, and others of the horrible modern music industry take part in the freemasonry, I'm just wondering why they use so much symbolism in their videos? vigilantcitizen.com... there you can read, and watch some videos that show direct symbolism.

If they aren't part of Freemasonry why are they able to use all these symbols to give a message of lust and extreme materialism? it's like if they were desecrating your symbols then. I wonder if inside your community there are people that complains about that?

And no, my question wasnt about races, forgive me for not clearing so before. When I ask if there are black and white lodges, I mean if they're both freemasons organized that work for a greater good while others are more involved in the contact with low deities? As laughable as it may sound, that kind of duality appears even in tibbetan buddhism.

[edit on 5-3-2010 by Szerablyn]

I think one of the problems with conspiracy theories about masonry, and the one thing that must p masons off big time, is that soon as a bit of symbolism or anthing related to a secret society is mentioned people start screaming that it must be the masons!

Jay Z, Lady Gaga etc are obviously part of some secret society. Whether that be one of their own making or part of a larger organisation is open to debate, but it is very doubtful it is masonry. Lasy Gaga's a lady for starters!

Originally posted by Szerablyn
1) Are people like Jay Z, Lady Gaga, and such crappy artists part of freemasonry through anyway?

No.

Appareantly the offices of MTV in Canada are situated in a Lodge, is that true? If this is true, I would like to know with all respect, what the hell happened to the craft of some centuries ago? how can you turn from being an organization with people such as Goethe and Mozart, to a thing based in the mere consumism and power on earth?

Here is a bit of info on that. I think the obvious thing is that 100 years ago lodges had more membership, and more wealth, and could build grander temples in the hearts of major cities. Of course, today, with a different economy, and fewer members, and commercial real estate being what it is, the Masons cannot afford to own the buildings that they built.

The building where my lodge currently meets pays about $60,000 per year in property taxes. There's only so long they'll be able to keep that up before they'll have to sell the building. Increased dues, or renting out to other lodges on other nights of the week can only get you so far...

2) Perhaps this is part of your secrets, but is there really a relation between you and what could happen in 2012?

No. There are no "end time" myths or allegories in Freemasonry. No numerological ties to the Mayan calendar, either.

3) Are there both white and black lodges? I ask this because for me there seems to be many contradictory stuff in your teachings.

No, it's not contradictory. It's the nature of the universe that there is both light and darkness. There's no need for the two to operate separately, because there is good and evil in all men.

Of that Equilibrium between Good and Evil, and Light and Darkness in the world, which assures us that all is the work of the Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good: by attaining to the knowledge of which equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty.

Sympathy and Antipathy, Attraction and Repulsion, each a Force of nature, are contraries, in the souls of men and in the Universe of spheres and worlds; and from the action and opposition of each against the other, result Harmony, and that movement which is the Life of the Universe and the Soul alike. They are not antagonists of each other. The force that repels a Planet from the Sun is no more an evil force, than that which attracts the Planet toward the central Luminary; for each is created and exerted by the Deity, and the result is the harmonious movement of the obedient Planets in their elliptic orbits, and the mathematical accuracy and unvarying regularity of their movements.*

4) Last but not least, I would like to know if Freemasonry is declining right now? You were the promoters of the "Enlightenment", the State of Right rather than the Divine one, and basically gave the bases to the "Modernity". However, now that we're in a global crisis were people are trying to create a Posmoderniity, all of these masonic values of freedom, equity, and fraternity seem to dissapear.

I woud say yes, obviously there's been a decline. Our numbers peaked shortly after WWII and have been declining steadily ever since. Thus one of my arguments that there simply aren't as many Masons in politics today as people want to believe. There USED TO BE more Masons in politics, because there USED TO BE more Masons period. But as the ranks have declined, the number of brothers in "positions of power" has declined proportionally.

That said, I think we might be on the verge of a rebound, though it's hard to say how far it will go. There is an active young population who want to take an activist stance and DO something. They're communal people who want to work together with their friends. There are millions of people reading Dan Brown novels and saying, what IS this Freemasonry thing, anyway?

[edit on 3/5/2010 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by Szerablyn
Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate such help.

I'm not saying that Gaga, Jay Z, and others of the horrible modern music industry take part in the freemasonry, I'm just wondering why they use so much symbolism in their videos? vigilantcitizen.com... there you can read, and watch some videos that show direct symbolism.

If they aren't part of Freemasonry why are they able to use all these symbols to give a message of lust and extreme materialism? it's like if they were desecrating your symbols then. I wonder if inside your community there are people that complains about that?

And no, my question wasnt about races, forgive me for not clearing so before. When I ask if there are black and white lodges, I mean if they're both freemasons organized that work for a greater good while others are more involved in the contact with low deities? As laughable as it may sound, that kind of duality appears even in tibbetan buddhism.

[edit on 5-3-2010 by Szerablyn]

my apologies for misinterpreting your question. the way you explain it here is much easier to answer. As far as black and white lodges, or good and evil, or however you want to look at it, no. Masonry is very much the same everywhere. Rich in tradition and virtue. When I learned the things I had to recite for my degrees, I questioned why the language was "old" and asked why we couldn't use modern language. I was told to wait and learn and my question would be answered. That is true. It is spoken that way because that is the way it has always been. It's tradition. It's the way you learn the lessons. It has always worked well, so there is no need to fix what isn't broke. So in answer to your question, there could be no alternative side to masonry. Good or bad is for you to decide, but it's the same everywhere for the most part.

And our symbolism isn't exclusively ours. Most of it has been adopted form other places along the way. And since we borrowed it, there should be no problem with others doing the same thing. Me wearing a bandanna on my head and tearing off my yellow t shirt doesn't make me Hulk Hogan, it just makes me imitate him. (something I don't see me doing in the near future.)

edit to change shirt from *.


[edit on 5-3-2010 by network dude]

Originally posted by Szerablyn
I'm not saying that Gaga, Jay Z, and others of the horrible modern music industry take part in the freemasonry, I'm just wondering why they use so much symbolism in their videos? vigilantcitizen.com... there you can read, and watch some videos that show direct symbolism.

If they aren't part of Freemasonry why are they able to use all these symbols to give a message of lust and extreme materialism?

For the same reason that Madonna suspended herself from a cross onstage or why Ozzy and Black Sabbath had an upside down cross onstage.

When I ask if there are black and white lodges, I mean if they're both freemasons organized that work for a greater good while others are more involved in the contact with low deities?

What are 'low deities'? All Masons believe in one God, Creator of All. There are no competing entities.

For the same reason? = Desecration?

Ok well, perhaps there arent other lower deities but there are indeed spirits from the realm. Thank you all for your help

Originally posted by Szerablyn
For the same reason? = Desecration?

Ok well, perhaps there arent other lower deities but there are indeed spirits from the realm. Thank you all for your help

Yes, all paths, including Rosicrucian Order, Bach etc leads us to the same destination, like freemasons with their Square and Compass.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Szerablyn
For the same reason? = Desecration?

I think it was more for attention then anything. You noticed the hand symbols and others had a reaction to the cross antics. I suppose the old adage of there is no such thing as bad publicity as long as you get your name mentioned.

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Johan Wolfgang von Goethe

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am still studying Goethe, since the following persons share a common location:
Christian Rosenkreuz was born in 1378 at Wartburg Castle (in Eisenach)
Wartburg castle is also the location for:
- Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
- Francis Bacon (1561-1626) (New Atlantis)
- J.S. Bach (1685 - 1750)


[edit on 5-3-2010 by hawk123]

Lot of FMs here! Perfect time for question: Is it "kosher" to be member of "secret society" and to be a public official at same time? Is not "secret society" and "democracy" contradictio in adjecto? Is it OK that every other POTUS was Skull&Bones member? To whom are you then loyal? To "secret society" or to "society in general"?